340 réponses à ce sujet

[lonexwolf2]

Please keep in mind they work for EA, EA always rushes games, and are known to be some of the most glitchy games made by a popular company, however, they always have some of the best games even with the bugs, if the people had more time, they would easily be able to release a game with near no noticable bugs or glitches.

Bioware started with microsoft as a lot of popular companies that move to EA. The thing with microsoft i noticed less bugs, maybe cause they had more time.

Its not always the game creators fault, remember they have a contract to follow and must meet dead lines. Bioware is not to blame I think.

However, bugs in mass effect 2 are unacceptable for one reason, the original release date was around the time modern warfare 2, they pushed it back a year to avoid competition, thus, less money.

That means they had another year to prep the game. However Im not complaining, Mass effect is the most advanced series ever made, never has a game's story transfer to the next in the series and every choice effects the story so deeply and the game is really not that badly bugged.

As for Dragon Age, I think dragon age was the first game they created under EA, I noticed more bugs than with the first mass effect; they follow the same concept and design so its not really an excuse

EA took over Westwood Studios Command & Conquer after westwood failed to meet deadlines, C&C was hardly bugged at all before EA, C&C Generals was the first in EA's control and it was an excellant idea, but it was so bugged no one wanted to play it, at least online, scud missile cheats, yeah.

If bioware is to make the same mistake as westwood studios, You can say your good byes to the mass effect & dragon age series.

EA should be more interested in making their fans happy, but because they make so much off people buying games anyway, they dont give a **** to fix a game that made 1.4 million over the year, patching it would cost too much pocket change afterall, hopfully bioware dont follow the same concept or already has.

Modifié par lonexwolf2, 20 avril 2010 - 12:43 .

[BLOWare]

Rendar666 wrote...

Is this another one of those "Making fun of the whining douche bag" threads? Or are you actually one of said whining douche bags?

Hmmm.

Me telling this nubb to stfu and let us have our discussion about this crap is an insult, but him calling us douches for being pissed about getting ripped off is totally ok...  I think the forum mods are a little on the fruity side too now

[_benp968]

a simple 3 day return policy would fix this problem pretty well. Or even 48 hours. Short enough most people can't beat it and return it before the time frame is up, but long enough to stumble on some bugs if its really badly checked by the QA guys. The excuse I used to hear, that people would copy it and return it doesn't work very well anymore because if you wanted to steal it, bittorrent is much easier then buy/copy/return, and most users don't understand how to copy a protected disc anyway.



Plus with a digital download it should be easy for them to build in a 3 day return policy and they wouldn't be out anything but a little bandwidth. No crying about destroyed retail packaging.



They won't do that because a 48-72 hour return policy *would* impact their business. I can think of a few games in the past few years I would have returned before the end of the day.

[CybAnt1]

 
Plus with a digital download it should be easy for them to build in a 3 day return policy and they wouldn't be out anything but a little bandwidth. No crying about destroyed retail packaging.

But that's just it. How do they know you've "returned" it. It's not just a piracy issue. 

Let's say I install it on my computer. It works fine. I come back 2 days later and say it's hosed. I return the disc. Get my refund. But truth is it works fine and I'm still playing it. I gave back the disc but never deleted it. Yes, they can make the game not work unless you have the disc in the drive, but ... we all know there are ways around that. And there are disc copy programs that make a bit-for-bit copy of the disc unto a blank disc, too. 

With a digital download, how do you "return" that? Swear an oath before a judge that you've deleted it from your hard drive? Only get a refund if they can verify you've run an application that's uninstalled it? What if you made a backup copy somewhere, and after they verify it's not on your computer, you reinstall it? 

Now please note I've been taking the side of accountability here, but I'm just pointing out these will be the objections that come up to your policy. 

The software manufacturers have always had this policy. There is no accountability for features. If you think the software should have done something you wanted it to, and it doesn't do it, that's your fault. You didn't try out the demo or read reviews or read the packaging. You thought it would print out 1 x 2 labels but it only does 2 x 4 labels? Tough. Caveat emptor. 

As for bugs - sorry, they promise to fix them in patches, and with productivity software, they make a firmer commitment, but they still do not owe you a timetable. You can't return it because it does 2 x 4 labels but when it does there's a green splotch in the upper right corner. They'll fix it, though. They promise. 

Now BTW as I keep pointing out, look at the EA EULA that comes with your game. Sure it's just a game. But if it malfunctions it could destroy more than just your fun. It could wipe out your entire hard drive. It could cause other programs to stop working. It's even possible it could hose your PC. Read that EULA. EA is not responsible even if any of these things happen. 

Can you think of any other industry that could get away from making you sign something that says they never have any liability, ever? 

[JaegerBane]

Gryms wrote...

I believe game companies should release games that are ateleast 95% bug free. If i buy a Blu-ray player, a DVD, a Car, rent an apartment, I dont expect to have to wait for months to have them "patched" to have them useable.
If i bought a Blu-ray that had faulty parts id get a new one from the store or sent a new one in the post. 3 - 4 weeks.
If i bought a DVD that had horrible menu management or there was a known release issue with the burning the store or company does a recall and i get my money back, a refund or a credit. 2 - 4 weeks.
If i buy a car with a dodgey stereo from a new car sales yard... they replace the stereo (kind of a bug fix?). 1-3 weeks.
If i rent an apartment i expect all the toilets, the oven, the lights, the locks, the drawers, the doors... everything, to work. If not i ring the realestate and they fix it ASAP if its essential like water mains or electrical wiring, or it can take upto 2 weeks for the others depending on what it is.

(Ive actually been unlucky enough to have been effected by each of those senarios yay me)

Every time this argument comes up, someone starts trying to use things like cars and other physical objects as some sort of analogy and ultimately, their point ends up falling flat on it's face.

The concept of only releasing software that is '95% bug free' is utterly nonsensical. You can only be sure you've gotten a certain percentage of bugs if you already know how many exist, and ultimately, the release deadline will always ensure a lot more than 5% of known bugs are still there. It's absolute pie in the sky to expect stuff like this, and trying to compare it to things like cars and whatnot just illustrates how little you understand the actual problems that cause this kind of situation.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love it if software was tested to the extremes and released virtually bug-free, but I'd also like not to have to pay for my shopping and I'd like to not have to pay for my rent. Doesn't make it any more likely. Awakening was clearly rushed out of the door, as illustrated by the sheer number of game-breaking bugs - it wasn't properly tested all the way through, and that is where the problem lies. Demanding that *all* bugs be sorted before release will lead to 6 year development cycles and bankrupt developers, and no-one wants that.

[FluxDeluxe]

JaegerBane wrote...

Gryms wrote...

I believe game companies should release games that are ateleast 95% bug free. If i buy a Blu-ray player, a DVD, a Car, rent an apartment, I dont expect to have to wait for months to have them "patched" to have them useable.
If i bought a Blu-ray that had faulty parts id get a new one from the store or sent a new one in the post. 3 - 4 weeks.
If i bought a DVD that had horrible menu management or there was a known release issue with the burning the store or company does a recall and i get my money back, a refund or a credit. 2 - 4 weeks.
If i buy a car with a dodgey stereo from a new car sales yard... they replace the stereo (kind of a bug fix?). 1-3 weeks.
If i rent an apartment i expect all the toilets, the oven, the lights, the locks, the drawers, the doors... everything, to work. If not i ring the realestate and they fix it ASAP if its essential like water mains or electrical wiring, or it can take upto 2 weeks for the others depending on what it is.

(Ive actually been unlucky enough to have been effected by each of those senarios yay me)

Every time this argument comes up, someone starts trying to use things like cars and other physical objects as some sort of analogy and ultimately, their point ends up falling flat on it's face.

The concept of only releasing software that is '95% bug free' is utterly nonsensical. You can only be sure you've gotten a certain percentage of bugs if you already know how many exist, and ultimately, the release deadline will always ensure a lot more than 5% of known bugs are still there. It's absolute pie in the sky to expect stuff like this, and trying to compare it to things like cars and whatnot just illustrates how little you understand the actual problems that cause this kind of situation.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love it if software was tested to the extremes and released virtually bug-free, but I'd also like not to have to pay for my shopping and I'd like to not have to pay for my rent. Doesn't make it any more likely. Awakening was clearly rushed out of the door, as illustrated by the sheer number of game-breaking bugs - it wasn't properly tested all the way through, and that is where the problem lies. Demanding that *all* bugs be sorted before release will lead to 6 year development cycles and bankrupt developers, and no-one wants that.

Agreed software development is priorities based. You identify bugs in testing these are handed back to developers who working in tandem with QA testers perform an impact assesment. If the bug is deemed a Showstopper or 'game breaking' these are passed back to the relevant area of the dev team to fix. Most bugs are fixed, the ones that aren't fixed are either cosmetic (as graphical glitches are standard fare) script driven (most of the time there is a manual work around e.g. don't visit beregost and talk to the bard before going to the inn to talk to the first assassin) or they are technical as in certain hardware/software configurations don't support elements of the game environment (Very hard to properly identify as there are so many different pc configs). I don't think i've ever played a game or used a piece of software that did not have exploits or bugs.

To address the rather naive blu ray analogy the complexity of the machine pales in comaprison to the complexity of a game engine. Software engineers charge a lot of money to investigate and fix problems plus every fix that is made needs to go through several phases of testing (unit, system, user & regression) before being released. Many companies will wait for several bugs to be identified and confirmed before simultaneously developing fixes. Basically it costs a company the trade cost of £80 to send ua blu ray player it costs a company tens of thousands of pounds (sometimes more) to fix bugs.  

[AlanC9]

CybAnt1 wrote...
 But if it malfunctions it could destroy more than just your fun. It could wipe out your entire hard drive. It could cause other programs to stop working. It's even possible it could hose your PC. Read that EULA. EA is not responsible even if any of these things happen.

Didn't that Pool of Radiance game actually erase some folks' C: drives on occasion? Not the Gold Box one, the later one.

[JaegerBane]

AlanC9 wrote...

CybAnt1 wrote...
 But if it malfunctions it could destroy more than just your fun. It could wipe out your entire hard drive. It could cause other programs to stop working. It's even possible it could hose your PC. Read that EULA. EA is not responsible even if any of these things happen.

Didn't that Pool of Radiance game actually erase some folks' C: drives on occasion? Not the Gold Box one, the later one.

Yeah, I remember that one. Never experienced it myself, thank heavens, since I only played it on my mate's pc and I wasn't involved when he uninstalled it...

[Haexpane]

Aeropostle wrote...

I think gaming companies need to be reported to the Better Business
Bureau. There is absolutely no accountability by them whatsoever. 

FYI, Bioware, I am calling the national BBB, and I am also contacting national news stations to see if there is any interest in a story in which consumers are getting ripped off.  

Delete your account and stop posting on the internet, you are a toolbag of the highest degree.  Go back to your Teabagger rallies and join the other underinformed dimwits protesting sanity.

[13Dannyboy13]

lonexwolf2 wrote...

If bioware is to make the same mistake as westwood studios, You can say your good byes to the mass effect & dragon age series.

EA should be more interested in making their fans happy, but because they make so much off people buying games anyway, they dont give a **** to fix a game that made 1.4 million over the year, patching it would cost too much pocket change afterall, hopfully bioware dont follow the same concept or already has.

Sadly, I think Bioware has very little input in the matter, and EA of course cares nothing for fixing their games becuase, as you said, it would cost too much. They continue to make a lot of money from people buying the game who really do little to no research before buying, they see Bioware on the box and it's good enough in a lot of cases. In the end EA pulls the strings and Bioware is just their puppet, they are a business, and unfortunately like most businesses they care only about the bottom line and profits. Not to say that Bioware doesn't deserve their share of the blame, but it really isn't their call when the games get released, they have to work by EA's timetable, and sadly it seems, EA's attitude about releasing buggy games.
As much as I really hope ME3 and DA2 won't be as bug-ridden as origins and awakenings, I have the feeling that they too will be rushed out the door as fast as possible for EA to capitalize on making money from both series, with the same "release it now and maybe fix it later" bullsh*t attitude that they have with all their games. It will be interesting to see how long their Star Wars MMO lasts with their attitude about fixing things, and who knows, maybe they will learn a lesson about supporting their games from it.

[Haexpane]

Eurypterid wrote...
 

Stating that there are 'major bugs' without even bothering to list them is no help to anyone and makes your post little more than a rant and tough to take seriously.

 

People like the OP aren't interested in facts, details or logic.

[Haexpane]

relhart wrote...
  Tolerating bugs in a game you can't return is one thing, paying money every month to continue playing one is another. I can see it flopping after initial sales very easily.

You obviously never used Windows or Mac OS, or played a MMO, or used a cel phone or iphone, or ever been on the internet...

All software has bugs,  MMOs launch day 1 with tons of bugs and empty content.

[Haexpane]

DanaScu wrote...

Aeropostle wrote...

Not whining, acting. I've already contacted the national BBB and filed a complaint. On Monday, it's searching for a reporter interested in this story. You can continue to sit on your arse, take it, and make smart arse comments. You obviously feel you're not worth paying attention to, so I won't pay any further attention to you either.

Have you ever read the EULA? 

THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED TO YOU
“AS IS,” WITH ALL FAULTS, WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, WITHOUT
PERFORMANCE ASSURANCES OR GUARANTEES OF ANY KIND, AND YOUR USE IS AT
YOUR SOLE RISK. THE ENTIRE RISK OF SATISFACTORY QUALITY AND PERFORMANCE RESIDES WITH YOU. EA AND EA’S LICENSORS (COLLECTIVELY “EA” FOR PURPOSES OF THIS SECTION AND SECTION 8) DO NOT MAKE, AND HEREBY DISCLAIM, ANY AND ALL EXPRESS, IMPLIED OR STATUTORY WARRANTIES, INCLUDING IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF CONDITION, UNINTERRUPTED USE, MERCHANTABILITY, SATISFACTORY QUALITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, NONINFRINGEMENT OF THIRD PARTY RIGHTS, AND WARRANTIES (IF ANY) ARISING FROM A COURSE OF DEALING, USAGE, OR TRADE PRACTICE.

 

EA DOES NOT WARRANT AGAINST
INTERFERENCE WITH YOUR ENJOYMENT OF THE SOFTWARE; THAT THE SOFTWARE WILL
MEET YOUR REQUIREMENTS; THAT OPERATION OF THE SOFTWARE WILL BE
UNINTERRUPTED OR ERROR-FREE, OR THAT THE SOFTWARE WILL INTEROPERATE OR
BE COMPATIBLE WITH ANY OTHER SOFTWARE OR THAT ANY ERRORS IN THE SOFTWARE
WILL BE CORRECTED.
 

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[Realmzmaster]

We would all love to have 100% bug free software. We would all love to have our favorite companies able to sustain themselves without turning to the big boys for help. Not going to happen.

Anyone remember Iron Lore Entertainment? They were the ones who created Titan Quest and its expansion Immortal Throne. They went under because they could not secure funding for their next project.

Unless you are able to internally generate the funds for development, the company has to seek funding else where. Most of that funding comes from banks or private equity firms. These investors want to see results.

Yes, CRPGs take time to make, but there is only so long an investor is going to pour money into a venture without seeing results. The results for a company like BioWare is product on the self that is selling. This means that a product gets rushed to the market before it is properly tested because they have to meet the imposed deadline.

I not saying get all the bugs out, but the game stoppers should not be present. If one is discovered it should be patched.

It use to be when CRPGs were a basically PC only product. The patches cam out quicker IMHO. Now the same error can appear on different platforms and have to be patched. The time for patching has gotten longer.

Maybe BioWare does not want another RTO debacle to happen which upset the PS3 crowd to no end. The delay also did not set to well with the rest of us.

So the patch will be released when everyone can be updated at the same time. Even though the console users are still awaiting the 1.03 patch. Maybe 1.04 will be for everyone and we will get that warm and fuzzy feeling for BioWare/EA again (Not likely!).

[Haexpane]

[quote]relhart wrote...

 

[/quote]

If you believe that I have a piece of paper I'd like to hand you that says I can rob you blind, w

[/quote]

You were not "robbed" by EA, so you are either lying or trolling

[Haexpane]

TJSolo wrote...

 
The change you want would probably come about faster if the American consumers weren't sheeple.

Wow there is some serious hater anti logic there.  The whine and generic rant complaint of the OP would spur action if it wasn't for those derned pesky american sheep?

HAHAHAHAHAHA

[Haexpane]

Aeropostle wrote...
 

-  Missing set items that I ran around forever looking for only to come to the forums and find out they are indeed missing...completely.  Very annoying.

OMG something was annoying in a game? SUE THEM!

[Haexpane]

Feraele wrote...
 

All of a sudden GOOD customer service has gone out the window, a

 

There is nothing "sudden" about it.  Good customer service is expensive and has a poor ROI.  DAO is an EA game, EA's customer service is what it is, poor and has been poor for a long time now.

Name 1 big company with good customer service?  The best CS I've ever had was at small businesses not giant corporations tied up in legal handcuffs of chain stores.

[CybAnt1]

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BTW, if my cell phone came with disclaimers like that EULA, I predict my cell phone carrier would be in court already.

Can't make phone calls? We sold you that phone as is. 

We know what's in the EULA. Yes, we all implicitly "signed" it by opening the box & installing the game.

That doesn't mean it doesn't contain illegal bullsh*t that would be thrown out of a court. Because it does. 

Modifié par CybAnt1, 20 avril 2010 - 08:20 .

[Haexpane]

Aeropostle wrote...
   Virtually every consumer good we know of is returnable if there's a defect.  

 

Toyota cars... NOT RETURNABLE even with a life threatening defect.  (recall only, you can't return the car)

No software is ever sold as 100% defect free or returnable because "there's a defect".  You are willfully ignoring facts, logic, reason, and history.
All software has bugs, all software will always have bugs.  Either get used to it, or stop using it.

[Haexpane]

CybAnt1 wrote...

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BTW, if my cell phone came with disclaimers like that EULA, I predict my cell phone carrier would be in court already.

Can't make phone calls? We sold you that phone as is. 

We know what's in the EULA. Yes, we all implicitly "signed" it by opening the box & installing the game.

That doesn't mean it doesn't contain illegal bullsh*t that would be thrown out of a court. Because it does. 

You obviously never used Comcast or AT&T.  Because not being able to get DNS server is a Comcast standard.  Dropped calls is AT&T's number 1 feature!

Last month AT&T blamed it's horrid dropped call rate on NYC and San Francisco residents for using too much bandwidth.  Yes, AT&T blamed it's bad network on it's customers.

[CybAnt1]

And so ... you think this is a good thing ... why?

[Haexpane]

CybAnt1 wrote...

And so ... you think this is a good thing ... why?

I never said it was good, why?

[CybAnt1]

Ummm... just seems to me that you're telling people that don't like a situation they consider unacceptable to STFU, that's all.



Based on the fact that "every other company does it too" which is not, btw, good justification.

[Aeropostle]

CybAnt1 wrote...

Ummm... just seems to me that you're telling people that don't like a situation they consider unacceptable to STFU, that's all.

Based on the fact that "every other company does it too" which is not, btw, good justification.

Thank you, Cybant1.  

Umm, Heaxpane, could you make your points civilly and without personal attacks?  I don't think anyone else here, except one poster (who we all ignored and is gone now) is doing that.  

This is a great discussion on how gaming companies are not held accountable for selling trash.  I am choosing to act on it.  If you like what you've been dished with this game and with all game software, so be it.  I, and many others are not.  The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results.  I am exploring ways to do things differently, and if you have any better ideas than what I have, feel free to explain them.  Maybe we could learn something from you if you tone it down a little.  Just because you don't agree with a discussion doesn't give you a license to ignore the rules of the forum.  Learning to disagree in a respectful manner is a sign of maturity.