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[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

David Gaider wrote...

It's interesting. "He will betray you, each time worse than the last." In my mind, the bigger crime for Loghain is that he kill *Rowan's* son -- but Loghain is definitely capable of that kind of blindness when it comes to doing what he thinks is best.

You're only going to ever get a better understanding of the why's involved in what Loghain did if you get him in the party and speak to him, but ultimately his decision was based on the fact that he didn't believe this was actually a Blight -- *couldn't* believe it, in fact, because if it was it made the witch's prophecy true and thus everything else she said true as well. Including the betrayals. About half-way through the game he realizes he is wrong, but at that point the die is already cast.

Whether this makes what he did villainous (he had obviously already begun to act against Cailan prior to Ostagar) or misguided and too easily susceptible to Arl Rendon's poisonous words is ultimately up to the player's perception.

I personally perceive it as the latter, the more I have read up on Loghain (just actually started reading 'The Stolen Throne') the more I think that due to the time he has spent fighting Orlais and seen how they have gone about trying to kill Maric in the past, that it has made it easy for the likes of Howe to feed him misinformation and poison him more.

The cut-scene which I think really does indicate what you said about him realising half-way through the game that he is wrong, is when Howe brings Zevran into the mix. A real good job done here in showing the anguish on his face and I have always read it as him thinking "What have I become?!" and as you say realising it is too late to change now as the die is already cast.

Being the RPer that I am, I do know that some of my characters that I've not completed the playthroughs for are going to have him executed, whilst some will spare him due to one reason or another. One of the former is a female city elf whom naturally is going to be uber pissed off with him due to the Alienage issue. One of the latter is going to be a human noble whom has grown up on the stories of how Loghain and Maric regained Ferelden and defended it from the Orlesians and aspires to be like him and believes that it is all Howe's doing (grr wish there was a way to stop him having the last word before he croaks it!).

[SeanMurphy2]

David Gaider wrote...
You're only going to ever get a better understanding of the why's involved in what Loghain did if you get him in the party and speak to him, but ultimately his decision was based on the fact that he didn't believe this was actually a Blight -- *couldn't* believe it, in fact, because if it was it made the witch's prophecy true and thus everything else she said true as well. Including the betrayals. About half-way through the game he realizes he is wrong, but at that point the die is already cast.

Whether this makes what he did villainous (he had obviously already begun to act against Cailan prior
to Ostagar) or misguided and too easily susceptible to Arl Rendon's poisonous words is ultimately up to the player's perception.

I found that to be true. It makes a big difference letting Loghain join your party and talking to him.

On my first playthrough I was disappointed at the lack of interaction with Loghain and never understood his reasons. I wrongly assumed there must have been cut content in the mid game that explained it.

But on my recent playthrough I let him join the party. I understood him better and was impressed with his dialogue and voiceacting. From now on I will probably always recruit Loghain and leave some mid game content for after the Landsmeet..

Modifié par SeanMurphy2, 30 décembre 2009 - 03:40 .

[packardbell]

I've read both books and admired Loghain greatly.. in the book.



However in the game he acted like a mad dog needing to be put down.

[Curlain]

I found Loghain in the game to be consistent development from his character in The Stolen Throne. The one thing that drives him throughout his life is his hatred of the Orlaisians for the rape/murder of his mother an for taking his father from him (and to some extent he also blamed Maric for this). He binds this idea with the idea that everything he does is for Ferelden's sake, whether that be sacrificing his relationships with Maric and Rowan in The Stolen Throne to make Maric the kind of king that will bring on Orlais the kind of vengeance he desires. And he does this again at Ostragar with Calian and the Grey Wardens, I think Loghain lies to himself that he does everything for Ferelden, and he is patriotic to Ferelden to a degree, but in truth throughout it is his hatred of Orlais and his desire for revenge that rules him, and not patriotism to Ferelden, and everything in his life is expendable and subjected to his hatred of Orlais, no matter what cost this brings to others (or even Ferelden it the case of the Blight in DA itself)

[Lupus Canivus]

For me Loghain has to die, I just can't let him live (even if Alistair is a wet). He planed the death of Cailan and the Grey Wardens before they even got to Ostagar. That is way he had Arl Ermon poisoned. Thats way Howe attacked Highever because he knew that the King would die and Loghain wouldn't do anything. If you talk to Loghain at Ostagar, he doesn't give a **** about your family being killed, and the fact that Howe has betrayed Ferelden. Also he knows its a Blight, thats why he has the Ash soldiers change their scouting routes so often. And lets not forget the tower! Who is it that make it easy for the darksparwn? Loghain! I bet he was in their pay all along "help us and we will make you King of Orlais." The darkside, he is.

[fantasypisces]

I don't want to read all this thread because I have not read "The Calling" yet, but I did read "The Stolen Throne" and I killed Loghain, without question.

He claims to have been best buds with Maric, and how Maric was so great, this and that, yet after Maric became King they never saw each other (presumably because of his love for Rowan). Yes,katriel made some mistakes, but then she redeemed herself. Rowan knew this, and that is why she was pissed at Loghain. Loghain made Maric kill Katriel to, apparently, be the ruler Loghain wanted him to be.



My take, he wanted Maric to kill Katriel so Maric could feel the hatred and sadness that Loghain wanted. Even after reading that book I still did not find Loghain to be a good person. But even if he was some great person, his deeds in Dragon Age Origins are damning, especially to all the characters but the dwarves.

For humans: He supported Howe in killing your family. He betrays the King of Ferelden.

For City Elves: He sells your family and friends to slavery. He betrays the King of Ferelden.

For Dalish Elves: He sells Elves to slavery, showing he has no empathy for the race.

For all three: He destroys the Grey Wardens, he has you hunted down with repeated assassination attempts.

And why? He knows the Grey Wardens are not evil. No, he does it because he is paranoid of Orlais. I imagine even if I read "The Calling" I still will not find a reason to save hi ass.

[PriscilaSSR]

In the books he was my favorite character (Poor honorable guy who chooses his country over his own happiness)... But in the game? NOT A CHANCE. He kills Maric and Rowan's son (also his daughter husband) like is nothing, sells elves to slavery, treats Grey Wardens with suspicions with no proof, just prejudice against Orlais (but 80% of people in the game know that the Grey Wardens are independent and considers them heroes, so Loghain just sounds paranoid).



I don't care if he didn't think it wasn't a Blight or if his past was horrible because of Orlais... He just acts like a prejudiced moron (like a old man screaming "get out of my lawn you damn kids"). Wasn't he supposed to be SMART? Bah.



He got what he deserved. Because of his crazy stubbornness he had to die. And suddenly he goes all... "Oh Grey Warden you are a worthy opponent after all. I was wrong! The Blight is real and you wasn't trying to take over the throne for Orlais" YEAH right. Too little too late, pal. I am not in the business of forgiving prejudiced crazy people. Alistair has every right to want him dead.



Anyway, maybe if the game gave more deep to him, gave him present reasons to like him (not his past actions in the book), I could like him again. But he is just soooo blind and paranoid, is annoying. If there WERE reasons in game to be suspicions of Orlais intensions, maybe then it could have made him less crazy and more political smart. But as it is, he just sounds alone and one-dimensioned in his suspicions. Not even Howe seems to be concerned about Orlais and is just after power (and Loghain seems oblivious to this, something really strange to me, since he used to dislike power grabbing nobles).

[Setz69]

I'd laugh if in the expansion the Orlesians take over Fereldan again. A big "I told you so" from Loghain would be epic.

[packardbell]

Setz69 wrote...

I'd laugh if in the expansion the Orlesians take over Fereldan again. A big "I told you so" from Loghain would be epic.

Who knows.. Ferelden would be in a very fragile state with the majority of it's army dead.

[Felene]

packardbell wrote...

Setz69 wrote...

I'd laugh if in the expansion the Orlesians take over Fereldan again. A big "I told you so" from Loghain would be epic.

Who knows.. Ferelden would be in a very fragile state with the majority of it's army dead.

And four legions of Chevaliers at its door step, too.

[KilrB]

Oh, he dies ...



Yes, he does.



By my hand.



Misguided or not, he's still a murderer and traitor.

[Aseya]

I had no problem killing him - I think his personal gripes turned him into very incompetent leader that was destroying country he claimed to love.



I can understand a person making wrong choices when he is young and turn his life around and trying to make a difference and therefore forgive his/her past but i dont think past glories can ever be an exuse for the rest of of your life to not a make an effort anymore and still demand to get respect resting on past glory



and what he did - sacrifice army with greywardens and king, poison arl, sold elves into slavery, terrorise nobles and commoners alike and give power to that sleezy monster howe - i felt no pity for him.



I liked second book a lot for the reason how maric managed to get in terms with his past and started making a difference again. I respected him for it and started liking him like I never did after first book where he realy was self centered immature little twit. All loghain did in his older age was get paranoid and destructive towards what he claimed he treasured the most - Ferelden

[Zavrian]

As someone who not read either book--yet--but who is most definitively a vetran of the BG saga, Loghain in the party post-Landsmeet has exactly the same flavor as Sarevok in the party in TOB.



But here's my question; does Loghain honestly beleive that, if he had stayed loyal to Cailan and helped him fight at Ostagar, that they still would have lost anyway, that Cailain would still would have died and that he, Loghain, would have died too?

[sjibben]

Loghain... what an amazing character. He is such a hardcase. I thought he was a brilliantly written character in both the books and the game. He was a murderer in the book as well, killing the noble when they had the big meeting to gather support. He may as well have killed Katriel himself as well.

It is easy to hate him, but he is just so fascinating to learn more about.

I read both books..

On my first playthrough, I had to know why he left Ostagar, and I respected him so much from the books, that I spared him, so I could have him join my party so I could get to know him even better and hopefully understand his betrayal.



On my second playthrough, as a female mage, I killed him for Alistair's sake.



Now, on my third playthrough, I am playing as female city elf who is a lot like Loghain. I am a hardcase, not afraid of making the hard decisions to stop the blight. I plan on having Loghain with me to do it.



What I am really interested in is to see what happens with the new Return to Ostagar DLC if you take Loghain with you to Ostagar...

[Vergil_dgk]

To someone who hasn't read the books, Loghain doesn't come off as evil exactly. He does seem to become unhinged during the game (if he isn't already at the beginning) as his paranoia drives him over the edge, in the end his actions no longer protect Ferelden at all but become the main obstacle to defeating the blight. I cut him down myself because I felt like he likely had a hand in the murder of my family and because Alistair and Duncan are and were my buddies.

[Default137]

Setz69 wrote...

I'd laugh if in the expansion the Orlesians take over Fereldan again. A big "I told you so" from Loghain would be epic.

Hah, half my playthroughs would be ready for them.

In one, I slept with Morrigan, I'm King, and Loghain is my General and Father in Law.

In another, I died, Loghain is still leading the Ferelden armies.

In another he died, but, my guy is King.

In only one did I side with Alistar, and thats my female Human Noble, because I was metagaming and wanted the damn Achievement, sadly, this will probably be the canon one, and all the other ones will have to be ignored because its obvious Bioware wanted this first part to end with Alistar as King, and Morrigan running off with your/his kid.

Modifié par Default137, 30 décembre 2009 - 08:56 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

I've read enough summaries and reviews of Stolen Throne to know what Loghain once was. Still doesn't stop me from killing him.



What he once was and how he got to be that way is completely irrelevant. What he has done, and what he is willing to do "for God and Country" makes him dead meat.



He kills the only son of his best friend and his former love, whom he still seemed to care for. He is willing to have his own daughter, his only child, killed and her death used to further his "patriotic goals". He kills or has tortured any advisors that disagree, sells people into slavery, wipes out half of the Bannoron's armies, hunts down and bans the only faction that can save his lands, All for "God and Country.



Ehh...no thanks. This brand of "patriotism" is what got us nifty concepts like the Third Reich, McCarthyism, terrorism, ect. Which is exactly why I don't want this guy joining me to go kill Mr. Archdemon. That would mean that at some point, I would have to camp somewhere, and there is no way in hell I'm going to be able to sleep.



With Zevran, the danger wasn't the same. he's an assasin, a mecenary. Assassins are pretty predictable. They are not idealists, their ideals are getting the job done. Which makes it easy to monitor or predict them, and generally, if you can pay them more than their employers or scheme some other way, it's possible to really get them on your side.



But not so with maniacal, delududed, paranoid idealists who truly and honestly believe that their cause justifies any action, no matter how contradictory to their goals. They are like a schitzophrenic rabid dog: unless they are dead or in a cage with a muzzle, they are a permanent, unpredictable threat.

[Ulicus]

[quote]Setz69 wrote...

I'd laugh if in the expansion the Orlesians take over Fereldan again. A big "I told you so" from Loghain would be epic.[/quote]
Well, he already had the last laugh in a sense. He told Cailan that they didn't need the Orlesians to defend themselves... and, in the end - even with Ferelden's own forces having been beaten and bloodied over months of civil war - they didn't.  

Anyway, I'll typically spare Loghain only if my character has some cause to. As a human noble (must have had a hand in the Cousland massacre) or an elf (slave trading), they rarely do. Still, I'm really looking forward to Loghain's dialog in Return to Ostagar. Salivating over it, in fact. Especially since I recently explored the dialog path where he talks about Anora and Cailan together as children. It's just tragic.

If it was my choice, though, knowing what I know... I'd probably spare him. Life as a Grey Warden can be a punishment, despite what Alistair thinks.

[quote]
He kills the only son of his best friend and his former love, whom he
still seemed to care for. He is willing to have his own daughter, his
only child, killed and her death used to further his "patriotic goals".
He kills or has tortured any advisors that disagree, sells people into
slavery, wipes out half of the Bannoron's armies, hunts down and bans
the only faction that can save his lands, All for "God and Country.[/quote[
He's not willing to have Anora killed -- she made that up. You could say that he's not being entirely truthful about that, but since he disapproves massively if you suggest he's lying, however, I'm inclined to believe him. As for wiping out half the Bannorn's armies, that's really six-of-one and half-a-dozen of the other, isn't it? There wouldn't have been a civil war had they fallen into line to push back the darkspawn as he assumed they would. It's just that everything went ****** up.
 
I don't have any issues with the other points you raise, however.

Modifié par Ulicus, 30 décembre 2009 - 10:09 .

[SnakeStrike8]

Hey, I'd have let Loghain live just on account of how he convinced Maric to slot Katriel. Persuading a man to gut the woman he loves earns huge points in my book (and yes, I am prejudiced against Katriel).

But... he was the enemy. Therefore he died. A worthy enemy, sure, but an enemy anyway.

[Sarethus]

Ulicus wrote...
Well, he already had the last laugh in a sense. He told Cailan that they didn't need the Orlesians to defend themselves... and, in the end - even with Ferelden's own forces having been beaten and bloodied over months of civil war - they didn't.  

Well to be fair, They would have needed the Orlesians if the Dwarves,Mages & Elves were not bound by treaty to aid the Grey Wardens. Before Ostagar they did not have the treaties on hand so calling for Orlesian aid would be prudent.

[Selej]

I had just finished the Stolen Throne and I now understand a lot more of Loghain's reasonings. Being in his shoes, I too would be a bit skeptical that the new king wants to just become a living legend like his father was and ride off into glorious battle without concern of his nation. Loghain worked hard with Maric and Rowan to secure the lands away from Orlais...the idea of inviting them back in was not something I would want to have done either. Keeping in mind, someone earlier wrote that he's too blinded by the fact that his mother was raped/killed in front of him. Think of it this way, if another country did that to you, hunted you and your father down and treated your people like dogs, would you not have a hatred for them as well. They were the enemy, less than what 30 years ago (in your lifetime) and after all the sacrifices that were made to finally drive them out, the new king wants to roll out the red carpet and have them come marching back in?



I let Loghain live on my new Human Noble character. It seemed Howe was doing his own thing, as pointed out by Loghain during the landsmeet. I got my justice by killing Howe, what Loghain did to Duncan and Cailan were of no concern to me. RP wise, I never wanted to be a part of that order nor the death sentence that it carries, I brought justice to the man who slaughtered my family and wound up in favor of the queen and will become the next King-consort. Loghain being my new father in law and still a general of my armies.