134 réponses à ce sujet

[cruc1al]

SmokeyNinjas wrote...

cruc1al wrote...

[...] Hence, AP for soldier is a waste of points. That's all I have to say

Well thats nice but its still nothing more then your opinion.

When it comes to the ammo on shep both Tungsten & Inferno will strip armor at about the same speed but when they get to health the Tungsten will keep doing full damage where as the Inferno damage will be spread over 3 seconds while it also CC the enemy & has the chance to CC enemys around the one your shooting.

You can argue that the CC is more valuable then the damage but at the end of the day its only more valuable if you need it. If you dont need it because a Solider with Revenant mows enemys down in seconds anyway then extra CC becomes unnecessary overkill.

As for the squad ammo with Inferno you squad will also strip armor faster therefore your squad will start CCing them by making them dance around fire thereby stopping them from shooting sooner then a squad with cyro ammo would freeze them.

You can argue that the better CC of cyro plus double damage to frozen enemies is more valuable then the faster CC of Inferno but just like above the better CC is only more valuable if you need it.
But if your killing enemies really fast which you can do by charging them with the Revenant then once again the overkill CC of cyro is unnecessary as the enemies wiil already be dead before you get the full benefit from it where as the Inferno CC's although not as good Cyro will happen faster so you can get more benefit from it.

So like i said before both are very effective solutions & as for which one is better comes down to personal preference & playstyle.

Just because in your opinion the Cyro setup is better does not mean that anyone who perfers the Tungsten setup is wrong or is wasting points.
Get the **** over yourself your opinion is not the law of the land.<_<

I'm not presenting my opinion as absolute truth, I'm presenting it as my opinion. If you can actually convince me that I should rethink my opinion, that'd be great. That's what arguments are for. I think your comment "get the f*uck over yourself" was a bit over the top. Based on your post, I could say the same to you but I won't - I appreciate that you don't think the same way. Of course I don't mind arguing, but you seem to, since you are uncomfortable admitting that you even have an opinion either way. Yet you're still arguing.

Now... you ought to agree that your post contains a crapload of opinions too.

Based on what is extra CC for Soldier unnecessary overkill? Plus, is that a bad thing? I mean, it does sound like you're admitting that extra CC means you'll be better at killing opponents, but that you'll be just fine without it, hence overkill. But it wasn't entirely clear to me - did you simply mean that on average, you'd be faster at killing without the extra CC than with it?

I think that since soldier is low on CC to start with, it's much more important to prioritise CC than weapon damage especially with a weapon like Revenant with which you'll benefit when you don't have to take cover from enemy fire as much since you're not reloading as often as with other weapons.

Then you present your opinion that incendiary ammo is better than cryo because of its faster CC. There are multiple reasons why it isn't. 1) incendiary as CC only works against humanoid organics not counting Krogan, whereas Cryo works on anything, even synthetics (hence it's better than squad disruptor) 2) the CC duration is less than half the CC duration squad cryo 3) you'll be using incendiary only on armored opponents anyway. 4), and this is an opinion: the Soldier will be fine on its own taking down the armor/shields of opponents: with Squad cryo active, you can take down enemy protection one by one with your own Inferno/heavy disruptor, leaving unarmored opponents for squadmates to freeze.

Then your remark that "both are very effective solutions and it comes down to personal preference and playstyle". Of course it depends on playstyle... No, actually it defines your playstyle. What I'm saying is that squad cryo playstyle > squad incendiary playstyle; it's not like both are just as good. One personal preference can be objectively worse than another. And you're arguing without taking any position.

Modifié par cruc1al, 20 avril 2010 - 12:56 .

[Tlazolteotl]

Well, I reckon squad cryo is generally better .. however, I do have one major beef with cryo ammo.

While they're in the process of being frozen, throw won't work on them ... it actually slows down the speed at which I kill targets on stages where (for example) I can place samara in a "fling 'em off a cliff" position.

I've taken to retraining squad cryo out on my infiltrator after horizon for that reason ...

[SmokeyNinjas]

@cruc1al

I apologise about the get the f*uck over yourself comment it was a over the top it was just that to me it seemed that you were saying that no one else's opinion matterd & no matter what someones playstyle is the Tungsten setup was worthless.

I myself do perfer the cyro setup as the extra CC does help a lot as i'm really good at the game myself but i'm not amazing.

I also agree that extra CC is never a bad thing however i know people who are much better at the game then me & for them the Tungsten setup works better because they wipe enemies out faster with it then they can with the Cyro setup which for them has unnecessary extra CC as they kill enemies to fast to get the most benefit from it so extra damage was better for them.

My point is really that what works best for one person is not necessarily what works best for everyone as people have different degrees of skill & playstyles so to say that Tungsten ammo is always worthless is not always true.

[cruc1al]

Well, I agree with the base of your argument - that what works for one doesn't necessarily work for another because of different skill levels. But I'm still not convinced that a tungsten with squad incendiary playstyle is actually better for anyone than inferno with squad cryo. I might give it a go myself just to see how it compares, since you've so intensely insisted it can be worth it

Modifié par cruc1al, 20 avril 2010 - 01:02 .

[SmokeyNinjas]

cruc1al wrote...

Well, I agree with the base of your argument - that what works for one doesn't necessarily work for another because of different skill levels. But I'm still not convinced that a tungsten with squad incendiary playstyle is actually better for anyone than inferno with squad cryo. I might give it a go myself just to see how it compares, since you've so intensely insisted it can be worth it

Cool mate open mindedness is a good thing & from what i've seen of your vids your better at this game then me:(
Just make sure you take squaddies with the sinpers to maximize their weapon damage, even better if you have access to the incisor rifle.

Edit: Just one more thing when i've been over my mates & watched him playing using the Tungsten setup he also  seems to be very liberal with his use of the Medi-Gel so he can keep playing aggressively.

Modifié par SmokeyNinjas, 20 avril 2010 - 01:32 .

[swk3000]

Tlazolteotl actually raises an interesting point in regards to cost. Squad Cryo + Inferno Ammo is actually rather hard to get. You need 2 points in Disruptor Ammo to unlock Incendiary Ammo, and another 20 points to max out both Squad Cryo and Inferno Ammo. Given how important Adrenaline Rush and Combat Mastery are considered to be, you really won't get Squad Cryo until the Reaper IFF mission, which means you'll generally be using it for about 2 missions before the game ends. By the time you get it, the game is really just about over, so if you want to use the combination, you have to do so on a NG+.



In fact, to be quite honest, unless you're using Squad Disruptor with either Tungsten Ammo or Heavy Warp Ammo, by the time you've got everything set up to make full use of everything, the game is basically over.



These 'Squad + Heavy' setups are very nice, but they're really geared towards a NG+, because otherwise you simply don't have the time to really enjoy the benefits of the setup before the game ends.

[Simbacca]

swk3000 wrote...

Tlazolteotl actually raises an interesting point in regards to cost. Squad Cryo + Inferno Ammo is actually rather hard to get. You need 2 points in Disruptor Ammo to unlock Incendiary Ammo, and another 20 points to max out both Squad Cryo and Inferno Ammo. Given how important Adrenaline Rush and Combat Mastery are considered to be, you really won't get Squad Cryo until the Reaper IFF mission, which means you'll generally be using it for about 2 missions before the game ends. By the time you get it, the game is really just about over, so if you want to use the combination, you have to do so on a NG+.

In fact, to be quite honest, unless you're using Squad Disruptor with either Tungsten Ammo or Heavy Warp Ammo, by the time you've got everything set up to make full use of everything, the game is basically over.

These 'Squad + Heavy' setups are very nice, but they're really geared towards a NG+, because otherwise you simply don't have the time to really enjoy the benefits of the setup before the game ends.

Agreed, I just noticed this last point you made with my Insanity Vanguard (first ME2 playthrough ever so no 25% XP bonus either).  I maxed Heavy Charge and Champion first, then maxed Inferno Ammo, and only just now at level 20 finally have gotten Squad Cyro Ammo. 

Early on, I could not wait for the benefits of my Vanguard causing panic in unprotected enemies while my squad also freezes them for the added survivability I so desperately needed at that point.  But now that I finally have them, I also have enough upgrades researched where I don't quite need the added survivability having both ammo powers bring.  With all the damage protection, shield, and biotic cooldown upgrades, I can now much more safely Charge from one enemy to the next.  I wish I could of had the benefits of Squad Cyro and Shep Inferno earlier in this Insanity run before I had all these research upgrades, but then Charge would have been greatly weakened throughout this playthrough. 

It does seem these dual ammo power builds are of much more benefit to the New Game+ Insanity playthroughs.

[cruc1al]

I've done some testing now with a modded-to-level-30 savegame, comparing the two squad ammo setups in the Thane recruitment which has both armored synthetics and shielded organics. On the first level, LOKI and FENRIS mechs approach you while the shielded Blue Suns stay behind cover. I took Miranda and Samara; I didn't want huge damage dealers with me because CC would decrease in importance and that was one of the things I was comparing.

I also did not use any squadmate abilities just to see how well the two ammo types increase Shepard's non-situational killing speed, and to get a better idea of how quickly enemy defenses go down with either ammo setup.

I had Hardened AR and Commando. Weapons used: Vindicator for medium range, Scimitar for close-range.
If I had allowed Mantis usage, the mechs would've been gone in a
couple of zooms with either setup, and the test would've been pointless.

I used the strategies outlined below for the whole level.

Shepard with Inferno or Heavy disruptor, squad with Squad cryo

Strategy:
1. Vindicator + Inferno to take out all Mech armor
2. Switch to Disruptor to take out any frozen and non-frozen mechs
3. Continiue with Vindicator + Disruptor to take out all Blue Suns shields
4. Approach with Scimitar + Inferno to take finish any frozen and non-frozen organics
5. If Vindicator ammo runs low before enemy defenses are down, advange carefully with Scimitar + Inferno.

With Squad cryo, you'll have excellent CC and double damage boost against any unprotected enemy, but only you can effectively take down protections.

Shepard with Tungsten, Squad with Squad disruptor or Squad incendiary

Strategy:
1. This is pretty simple. Just use Vindicator + Tungsten or Shotgun + Tungsten to take out Mechs and Blue suns, depending on whichever is closest and if there's ammo for Shotgun.

With squad ammo, you can go two ways. I'm not taking into account the possibility of changing squad ammo types on the fly either by reassigning ammo, or changing squadmate weapons. It's too clumsy. Since you're encountering enemies
with different defenses and synthetic and organic health, there are trade-offs:

• A) If you choose Squad
  incendiary, you'll have good damage and CC against organics, which is OK since your Tungsten already does decent damage to synthetic health. But you'll have nonexistent shield penetration and nonexistent synthetic CC.
• If you choose Squad disruptor, you'll have good damage and CC against synthetic health, good damage against shields, and possible weapon overheat CC against organics. You're lacking a squad anti-armor and anti-organic component, but your Tungsten perfectly complements that.

What I found out

Changing Shepard's ammo types accordingly in setup 1
is important for Vindicator ammo conservation, but should be less
important when using squadmate abilities and the sniper rifle. However,
changing ammo can be dangerous sometimes (like when a Fenris is approaching) when you just don't have much
time - either you have to keep shooting with the wrong ammo type, or
take the time to change the ammo type. The Tungsten ammo setup doesn't suffer from this, but then again, you can't trust your squad to save your ass with CC every time.

However, Incendiary ammo + shotgun works slightly better than against organics than Tungsten ammo + shotgun because of the panic effect. With the added bonus of squad cryo, it's safer to get in their face and shotgun them. As a downside, Incendiary ammo + Shotgun is completely useless against synthetic health; but that's why you have Heavy Disruptor you can change to if needed.

It's also important to note that Squad cryo becomes less useful when you have squadmates with high weapon damage. You'll want them to use another ammo power to maximize damage output. But since squadmates also have defense-stripping powers, it might be worthwhile to maximize their CC with cryo, as you'll be doing high damage yourself as a soldier. Probably the most effective way to use Squad cryo is to take squadmates that specialize in defense stripping and combine that with Shepards ammo switching needs. But then again, the Tungsten setup benefits from anti-protection abilities too.

When doing the tests, it felt like both setups were really equally effective. I didn't time my runs, so I can't say for sure, and I didn't do enough runs for it to be statistically significant anyway. I'm going to have to agree with you, SmokeyNinja; it's quite possible that any situation can be dealt with pretty much with equal effectiveness and reliability with both setups. So much depends on which squadmates you bring with you, which weapon you're using, etc. There's only one downside to AP ammo that is always present, it's that it uses up the bonus power slot. With the Cryo setup, you could leave disruptor to a low level and get energy level 3 energy drain, or dominate, or flashbang, etc.

Modifié par cruc1al, 20 avril 2010 - 04:37 .

[Simbacca]

That bit you said about switching squad ammo powers cru1al brings up an interesting point to me; is having a heavy version of an ammo power absolutely neccessary on a Soldier? 

For example, with the Tungsten, Squad Disruptor, Squad Incendiary setup (which is the example build given in the Soldier Thread AverageGatsby started), you would run into the problem where it is too problematic to switch Squad Ammo powers on the fly because it would require the player to then also reswitch Tungsten Ammo back on his weapon.  That would seem to be the case of any Soldier with the 1 Heavy/2 Squad Ammo setups and certainly make a case for the 2 Heavy/1 Squad Ammo setups on Soldiers. 

But what if a Soldier just went with a 2 Squad Ammo setup, just Squad Disruptor and Squad Incendiary for example.  Sure the player would lose some damage output himself in not having a Heavy Ammo power, but there would be a potential gain in always having everyone in the squad with the appropiate ammo at any given time.  In this situation, it would not be a pain at all to switch Squad Ammo powers on the fly because Shepard would be willing to use that power too. 

A Soldier build like this would also be able to take advantage of maxing out a bonus power that the 3 Ammo power setups just can't, such as Reave for enemy Barriers, Neural Shockwave, Dominate, or Flashbang for CC, GSB for added survivability and damage, or Crippling Slam for single target lockdown + Warplosions.  Hell a soldier with this setup could forgo a maxing a bonus power (maybe 1 pt Slam or something) and actually max Concussive Blast for once, the Soldier's innate power for dealing with enemy Barriers and Husks.

Modifié par Simbacca, 20 avril 2010 - 05:32 .

[cruc1al]

m14567, I guess squad cryo is really only feasible on NG+ where you get to allocate full points into it from the start. But 1 point cryo ammo can be very useful too, as I've found on my infiltrator runs. Put cryo ammo to your heavy pistol, and use disruptor ammo or a bonus ammo for all other weapons; that way you can clear out defenses first, then pop one shot with the predator to everyone for some easy CC.

[Akinra]

Vanguard - Reave



Adept - Warp Ammo

[mi55ter]

Soldier. Reave til Horizon's finished, Energy Drain after that 'til derelict reaper, back to reave, etc.

[ResidentNoob]

Infiltrator with AP-Tungsten ammo.

[x-wrentaile]

Infiltrator - Warp Ammo

[Mify]

Current run through....



Sentinel...Area Reave.

[Pablodiablo]

Vanguard -- Slam (soon to be Crippling Slam)



dont interfere with my Charge-CD, and is decent CC

[RT0wn]

Adept - Warp Ammo.

[Samurai_Wahoo]

Engineer: WAmmo

Sentinel: WAmmo

Soldier: WAmmo

Infiltrator: AP Ammo

Adept: WAmmo

Vanguard: Reave

[II Goonah II]

Soldier - Slam



I've completed ME1 six times with this same character, and twice on ME2.



I'm finally making a change, i'm going to do a playthrough as a Adept.

[ItaliaStalia2]

Soldier- Geth Shield Boost



Infilraitor - AP ammo

[naledgeborn]

Soldier AP Ammo
Sentinel Warp Ammo

I dont really like Bonus Powers, don't know why, so i roll with Ammo Skills

Modifié par naledgeborn, 24 avril 2010 - 02:51 .

[Jackal904]

Vangaurd - Warp Ammo, Soldier - AP ammo, Adept - Dominate.

[Sand King]

Soldier - Slam