152 réponses à ce sujet

[Kaiser Shepard]

cronshaw8 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

And I was wondering, why do the Council want Udina there?

Because Udina gives better foot rubs.

kaimanaMM wrote...

JRCHOharry wrote...

SEND YOUR FEET IN!

[Beholderess]

Well, my bet is that 2 other Council member (asari and salarian) had hoped that turian and Udina will finally strangle each other=)

[Nightwriter]

Shandepared wrote...

Anderson does nothing but agree with what Shepard says. That's what I mean by kiss-ass. You only like him because he always does what you want him to.

Guilty as charged! I like him because he supports me and sticks by me. Imagine that. I'm so ashamed. Don't look at me!

Udina on the other dares to defy you and so you hate him. Same reason most people hate Kaidan/Ashley for not dropping everything and running off with Shepard on Horizon.

Not me. I don't hate them for that. Oh, I think they could've given me more of a chance to explain myself, hell yes (especially Ashley, grr) but I understand their position.

Udina is a politician and he has no obligation to Shepard what-so-ever.  Thanks to him you were made Spectre, Saren was exposed, you got the Normandy, and the Council and other concerned parties stayed off your back as you tore up the Traverse. He had your back defending you the entire time.

Then at the end after the Council has indicated that they think you are mentally unstable he grounded you to prevent your raving from damaging humanity's standing with the Council. Odd that you would call him a kiss-ass while also slamming him for taking a hardline stance against the Council when they refused to send in their fleeet to protect human colonies and then even threatened to pull out of the Citadel over it when they still refused to take action after Saren was exposed.

So which is it?

You assume that Udina is out for himself but what proof do you have? I think you're just projecting.

Heh. Right.

Udina, worried about my raving damaging humanity's standing. That's hilarious. "THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!!" "I DEMAND ACTION!!" "SEND YOUR FLEET IN!!"

Of course he has no obligation to Shepard "what-so-ever", silly. He made that abundantly clear. Look, I'm not saying Udina is pure evil, but I am saying he doesn't deserve the job of Councilor. He's not responsible enough. He proved your mind has to be broader than just politics when you're the one whose job it is to look out for humanity.

There was a significant threat to humanity and to the galaxy and he ignored it because of ambition, and because he couldn't take his head off of politics. Yeah, Shepard was acting out in that trial - but there were other ways he could've quieted Shepard and explained the situation without grounding the Normandy. He was oh so eager to make an example of Shepard, though. He was ever Shepard's critic.

Yes, Udina is a politician through and through, and yes, he was looking out for our "political" interests then. But what he proved was that "looking out for our political interests" would have gotten all of us killed, and that we can't have a politician sitting in that seat or we'll all die. He lost sight of what was important.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 19 avril 2010 - 05:08 .

[Sand King]

[Nightwriter]

Shandepared wrote...

Like I said; you like a kiss-ass. Don't try and hold up that trait as though it were honorable. On the contrary it is very selfish and arrogant on your part.

Lol. Shand, you can call it whatever you like, and I welcome you to. Anderson trusted me, Udina didn't, so yes, I like him and trust him more in turn.

If you want to call that kiss-ass, go right ahead. I can't stop you from condescending and belitting it any more than you can stop me from calling it simple friendship and faith. Let's just agree to disagree.

Shandepard wrote...

All justified considering humanity was under attack, was bound by the Citadel conventions, but was not getting any help from the Council.

Regardless, that does nothing to diminish the fact that Shepard's own raving was driving the Council away and only Udina wanted to take the steps to bring them back.

I told you I knew what he was doing. But he did the wrong thing. He should  have tried to save face for humanity there. He should not  have grounded the Normandy. He should've waited to talk to Shepard privately about all this. I really do think he should have heard Shepard out more. It seemed like he'd already made up his mind before Shepard had even got there.

Shandepard wrote...

His job is politics. His obligation is to humanity, to the billions of people he represents. He never owed you anything, so don't act like he betrayed you.

Now now, let's not imply melodrama where there really is none. That's just silly. Udina displayed much short-sightedness, and an error in judgment, but I'm not trying to dramatize some grave and grievous crime against myself. He got in the way. And he was a ****** about it. That's all. I saved the day anyway, didn't I?

Shandepard wrote...

No, he ignored it because there was no compelling proof of it. All you had was your word and the word of others. You had no physical evidence and no credibility with the Council considering this was your first mission. That Anderson believed you fully right from the start is a mark against him. In fact it is downright silly that he was so quick to believe in Shepard's grabled visions.

Udina tried to callm Shepard down but the Commander doggedly persisted and would not take a hint, so Udina was forced to speak in plain terms.

He never lost sight of what was important. On the contary that you can't see his position speaks volumes about your own narrow-mindedness.

*Sigh*. You always eventually just start making direct attacks at the opponent, devolve into personal insults. Have I been doing that to you? Haven't I been addressing only your arguments, and not you, personally, with my responses?

So according to you, you don't think anyone  should have believed us then, not even Anderson. Shame on him for showing faith in us? You ridicule positive traits and praise negative ones. Udina heard Benezia say "And one step closer to the return of the Reapers" just like the rest of us, he had our testimony, he had the vids of Sovereign touching down on Eden Prime. That was enough for Anderson and I felt it should've been enough for Udina.

Look, I can see we just don't see eye to eye on this, so can we just agree to disagree? A difference of opinion like this is probably fruitless to argue about, culminating in what is likely to be a pointless exchange of venom. Now, I don't want to shoot venom at you and I'm really hoping you don't want to shoot it at me, so let's say bygones.

... And can you please send your response in a post that doesn't have a lingering last-word insult or dig in it? I won't bite back either, I promise.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 19 avril 2010 - 06:04 .

[TuringPoint]

... KFC ruins chicken. Is that what that motivational is trying to say about Udina?

I kind of see Udina's point on certain things. And yet, Anderson is the one who goes for improved relations with the other races, not just with the Council.

It's kind of confusing. I don't feel like I know enough about Udina, but I also kinda feel like Udina could easily just be really shallow in his purposes.

I think what the council says is pretty straightforward though.  Udina knows the bureaucratic stuff and is interested in it a lot more than Anderson is, so the Council feels that when it's just Anderson talking with them.

Modifié par Alocormin, 19 avril 2010 - 06:11 .

[Tlazolteotl]

Alocormin wrote...

... KFC ruins chicken. Is that what that motivational is trying to say about Udina?

Unless it's another jab at the demographics that eat a lot of KFC ...

(Which is entirely an american thing, and quite retarded IMO ... over here in australia, we didn't bat an eyelid at our KFC ads, which americans apparently thought were racist)

[Nightwriter]

What? KFC? Racist?



Oh, these things are always so lost on me, I'm an oblivious idiot... all I see is a sign that says, "Hey! We sell chicken here! Come eat!"

[srzyski89]

So according to you, you don't think anyone should have believed us then, not even Anderson. Shame on him for showing faith in us? You ridicule positive traits and praise negative ones. Udina heard Benezia say "And one step closer to the return of the Reapers" just like the rest of us, he had our testimony, he had the vids of Sovereign touching down on Eden Prime. That was enough for Anderson and I felt it should've been enough for Udina.

God forbid Uldina take someone's word who was actually in the field doing the work.

[Tlazolteotl]

Heh ... it's a total farce, IMO ... the ad was pulled due to 3 complaints from USA.

Three.

And it wasn't even being shown there.

[Nightwriter]

srzyski89 wrote...

God forbid Uldina take someone's word who was actually in the field doing the work.

This really gave me a laugh. Kudos.

@ Tlazolteotl - very interesting vid. So there's no black/chicken stereotype in Australia?

[Collider]

Really, that advertisement does seem to be racist. They could have chosen a multiracial crowd, but instead everyone is black and loves chicken. I highly doubt that it happened by chance.

[Tlazolteotl]

Collider wrote...

Really, that advertisement does seem to be racist. They could have chosen a multiracial crowd, but instead everyone is black and loves chicken. I highly doubt that it happened by chance.

And that's why you americans are made of fail.
That ad was during a cricket match. In the west indies.
Ever seen a west indian cricket crowd? NO MULTIRACIAL.

[Collider]

You assume I'm American, tlaz?

Modifié par Collider, 19 avril 2010 - 07:07 .

[Tlazolteotl]

Fair enough ..

But how exactly would it have made any sense to have a few chinese guys sitting in that audience?

That would have been a symptom of affirmative action gone retarded.

Ok, maybe if the guy offering the KFC was himself black .. but then that there would have been pointless .. hmm ... maybe a black guy wearing australian team colours? Silly.

Frankly, it's a stupid ad ... but racist? No.

[Collider]

You have a good point. When you put the commercial into context, it's seems more innocuous.

[Tlazolteotl]

Collider wrote...

You have a good point. When you put the commercial into context, it's seems more innocuous.

But that's the issue at hand, though ... all 3 complaints that got the ad pulled were by americans, who likely never watched a cricket match in their entire life (let alone commercial TV when the ad was actually being shown), and managed to get an ad pulled in my country when neither the west indians nor australians (of whatever race, I'm chinese myself) were offended.

We had several complaints ... about americans @#$%!ing with our television programming, and those are right and proper.

[Nightwriter]

I'm torn.

The ad seemed blatantly racist to me, I admit - as an American. So much so it surprised me.

So you're saying this ad was never shown in America at all? That would certainly change things.

[Tlazolteotl]

Nightwriter wrote...

So you're saying this ad was never shown in America at all? That would certainly change things.

Well, unless you consider watching it on youtube "shown in america," no.

Don't get me wrong ... there are race issues here in australia, I've got in a few fights over the years due to it.
Then there's the indian international students getting stabbed, or aboriginal communities living in squalour in the middle of nowhere having half the life expectancy of a city slicker ... just to name a few.

But KFC is not culturally sensitive here.

Just sayin' ... if that ad had been about handing out alcohol, there may have been a huge outcry.

[Dean_the_Young]

srzyski89 wrote...

So according to you, you don't think anyone should have believed us then, not even Anderson. Shame on him for showing faith in us? You ridicule positive traits and praise negative ones. Udina heard Benezia say "And one step closer to the return of the Reapers" just like the rest of us, he had our testimony, he had the vids of Sovereign touching down on Eden Prime. That was enough for Anderson and I felt it should've been enough for Udina.

God forbid Uldina take someone's word who was actually in the field doing the work.

Dude, I , like totally have a bridge to sell you. Really. You have my word: I'm the guy on the ground here.


See how silly that looks?

The Council hearing Benezia mention the Reapers is no more proof than Saren's mentions, for the exact same reasons: the Council believes that Saren's simply manipulating the Geth. No one understands the extent or power of Indoctrination, and the idea that they are out for galatic genocide (which would include themselves) as opposed to a political ambition play is rather ludicrous in the extreme.

That the only proof of Indoctrination (besides Benezia, who has every reason to lie for herself) comes after Virmire, a highly traumatic experience after a long period of the Council already believing Shepard to be unstable.

There seems to be this strange insistence that the existence of Sovereign the Ship equals the existence of the Reapers. Not really. No one, least the Council, denies that the Geth have a super-big dreadnaught, that it was at Eden Prime, etc. What they believe, and it's pretty reasonable to think barring the inter-game SNAFU, is that Sovereign is a Geth ship.

And the only person(s) to hear otherwise are... a SPECTRE who the Council thinks is insane, and certainly would be capable of manufacturing any video proof he desired.


It's Udina's job to work with the Council for humanity, and the Council wasn't prepared or willing to go along with Shepard's drive. That's why Udina tried to get you to quiet down, until you insisted on risking all the gains made to present.

[ThisIsMadness91]

Shandepared wrote...

Like I said; you like a kiss-ass. Don't try and hold up that trait as though it were honorable. On the contrary it is very selfish and arrogant on your part.

One man's ass-kissing is another man's faith. Anderson has been out there in the line of duty, Udina sits on his comfy chair in his pretty office in the perfect Citadel. He knows from experience how ruthless and self-serving Saren is. He handles the situation with reason and rationale, Udina barks orders at the Council. Don't you call Anderson a kiss-ass without first accepting that there are those of us who believe Udina's a kiss-ass.

Shandepared wrote...

All justified considering humanity was under attack, was bound by the Citadel conventions, but was not getting any help from the Council.

Regardless, that does nothing to diminish the fact that Shepard's own raving was driving the Council away and only Udina wanted to take the steps to bring them back.

No-one's saying that they feel Udina's anger wasn't justified, just that he needed to keep is cool if he really wanted to gain the Council's support.

So you're saying that Shepard's rants were driving the Council away, but Udina's were making them feel closer to humanity? Sounds like hypocrisy to me.

Shandepared wrote...

His job is politics. His obligation is to humanity, to the billions of people he represents. He never owed you anything, so don't act like he betrayed you.

We're not saying he owes us anything. The only real reason we oppose him is because his decisions put the galaxy as a whole at risk, while we were out there fighting Saren, learning about what was to come.

Shandepared wrote...

No, he ignored it because there was no compelling proof of it. All you had was your word and the word of others. You had no physical evidence and no credibility with the Council considering this was your first mission. That Anderson believed you fully right from the start is a mark against him. In fact it is downright silly that he was so quick to believe in Shepard's grabled visions.

Udina tried to callm Shepard down but the Commander doggedly persisted and would not take a hint, so Udina was forced to speak in plain terms.

He never lost sight of what was important. On the contary that you can't see his position speaks volumes about your own narrow-mindedness.

Udina and the Council's skepticism when you had no proof was understandable, I can't deny that. But saying that Anderson's trust is silly shows how narrow-minded you are. Shepard's a damn hero, having the slightest bit of faith in him/her is not crazy.

Not once did I get the impression that Udina was trying to calm me down, but keep me completely silent. It was only because I didn't follow his orders that he decided to ground me.

I understand he was doing what he felt was necessary, but it's because we were there and we knew what was truly at stake that we are angry when he keeps us from doing our duty. If not agreeing with you or Udina makes us narrow-minded, so be it.

[kaimanaMM]

Nightwriter wrote...

In my playthrough, the Council says this to Anderson just before you walk into the meeting.

And I was wondering, why do the Council want Udina there? It really didn’t seem like there was any love lost between them in the first game, he was an angry ******.

Then suddenly they want him present, which kind of irritated me - like they would’ve preferred to deal with him instead of Anderson. Is it because they just consider Udina to be more politically savvy?

I took it as a snub to Anderson more than anything else.

The Council didn't seem too happy at the end of ME1 when Shepard put Anderson forward for the Council seat position.  Regardless of who is the biggest jerk or who Shepard should trust more, the Council has worked with Udina for a while, they know how to handle him. 

While Anderson has a history with them, it's not a very pleasant one (as per Revelation and ME1).  He also openly supports Shepard, which the Council is busily trying to brush under the rug along with the events of ME1.  Add that to the fact that the Council most likely has no desire to relinquish any of their power (especially to the upstart newcomers, no matter if they saved the day or not).  Makes for a rocky relationship between them and Anderson.