152 réponses à ce sujet

[Nightwriter]

Goodwood wrote...

As for the topic question, I'd have to agree that it's just an excuse for the Council to mention Udina. Anderson, as Councilor, quite rightly reminds them that he is the representative of humanity now, not Udina. And he does it calmly; gently, yet firmly.

One thing that has bugged me about this thread, particularly the Anderson v. Udina debate, is that no one has yet mentioned the humongous risk that Anderson takes to get the Normandy "out of hock" as it were, and Shepard back on her mission. Merely on faith, he risks high treason, a capital crime, to ensure that Shepard can do everything in her power to stop Saren and prevent the Reaper invasion. No matter what side of the debate you fall on, it should be pretty clear that such a choice takes real cajones. If Shepard is wrong, both she and Anderson face total ruin; both of them would likely have been court-martialed, and possibly shot as traitors.

Trillions of sentient beings owe their lives to that faith-based gamble, from a man who some uncharitably call an "ass-kisser." Shame.

Great point! Anderson's actions are actually selfless and in the interests of humanity - I think sometimes it takes a soldier to remember what's important.

[Goodwood]

"Still, at least we know the human Councilor isn't going to put politics ahead of defense." -- Jacob Taylor



Shandpatine, I have only this for you: "There are none so blind as those who will not see." Guess who said that and you win a cookie.

[Nightwriter]

Shandepared wrote...

Goodwood wrote...

 the humongous risk that Anderson takes to get the Normandy "out of hock" as it were, and Shepard back on her mission. Merely on faith, he risks high treason, a capital crime, to ensure that Shepard can do everything in her power to stop Saren and prevent the Reaper invasion. No matter what side of the debate you fall on, it should be pretty clear that such a choice takes real cajones. If Shepard is wrong, both she and Anderson face total ruin; both of them would likely have been court-martialed, and possibly shot as traitors.

Big balls, I agree, but he's still an ass-kisser who would praises Shepard no matter what. He had no compelling reason to believe that the Reapers were real and if Shepard had been wrong humanity would be been humiliated and he, Shepard, and Shepard's crew would have been incarerated or executed. He should be thankful that the Reapers are coming.

Now if only he could prove it.

The whole "no proof" argument with Udina might hold up until game two starts.

But after game two a Reaper has physically attacked the Citadel, giant Reaper parts have rained down on the station and humans are being abducted by the thousands. Udina should be going, "Hmm, maybe I should look into this after all..."

[Goodwood]

How does Anderson's defense mean a lot less? How is there not as much for him to defend? The humans are now sharing the burden of galactic peacekeeping with the turians, an obvious acknowledgment to humanity's martial skills, and Anderson is a former soldier, which garners even more respect from the turians. The salarians, who also generally liked humanity before the Battle of the Citadel, have even more reason for doing so due to Anderson's negotiating of trade treaties; this should also make the volus happy. The newscast describes him as "building bridges", which should be indication enough that he's doing his best to unite the galaxy, even if he keeps the real reason for this under wraps.

One thing I don't get about you is that you know the Reapers are coming. Yet you do what you decry so many of us for allegedly doing, and metagame reasons why Udina is inherently better than Anderson, reasons that don't make a whole lot of sense because I personally have never witnessed Udina threatening what you say he's threatening (pulling the Alliance out of the Citadel government) because it's always my level-headed and diplomatically-aware Shepard who proposes that the Council send her in to stop Saren. That way the Council doesn't have to send a fleet, and Udina gets his human Spectre. Everybody's happy.

Modifié par Goodwood, 19 avril 2010 - 09:39 .

[Dean_the_Young]

OverlordNexas wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Udina's ranking and reputation is the representation of 11 odd billion people. Are you really going to say he should throw eleven billion to the wind for one's personal beliefs?

When it has no adverse affect on any of those 11 billion people sure. Say Shepard is crazy, and the Normandy finds nothing about the Reapers on Ilos. Nothing bad happens beyond wasting a couple of peoples time. But Shepard isn't crazy. The Reapers are real, and by preventing Shepard from going to Ilos Udina is putting the entire galaxy at danger.

And the only reason you know Shepard isn't crazy is because you're the player. Otherwise you'd be a dime a billion doomsayer.

There's a reason that big threats are so often ignored, and that's because they're even more often completely and utterly wrong, and often without any basing in reality.

Let's take the 'but on the off chance they're right' logic to, well, it's logical conclusion. Let's take the Westboro Baptist Church: you know, the family that preaches that all natural disasters, deaths from war, and everything bad that happens to the US is God's divine punishment for tolerating gays, and that worse is to follow. And by tolerating, I mean 'for not wiping them out.' And their solution is perhaps only a few steps away from stone the gays.

Totally, utterly, friggen nuts.

However, what if they aren't? What if they know the truth? If we ignore them and they're wrong, no big deal. But if they're right... we're all in for more mega disasters, acts of god, and a good eternity in hell for what we are and aren't doing.

Your argument is effectively that any halfway decent government must take any threats of dire catastrophe seriously and move to counter them: after all, its no big deal if nothing's there, but a lot of people will die if we do nothing. Congratulations: that train of thought ends at the ban-the-gays station. After all, if they just so happen to be right...




If that demonstration doesn't convince you, how about this. How would you react if I threatened to hack your identity and come to your house and kill you? Would you go to extreme lengths to take the safeguards to protect your life,
change everything about you, and move somewhere else and go into hiding? Or would you pass it off as the rambling of some guy on the internet?

[Nightwriter]

Shandepared wrote...

Goodwood wrote...

"Still, at least we know the human Councilor isn't going to put politics ahead of defense." -- Jacob Taylor

Shandpatine, I have only this for you: "There are none so blind as those who will not see." Guess who said that and you win a cookie.

I don't care who said it and in the end Anderson's defense means a lot less since he hasn't got as much to defend. Pick your poison, I suppose.

Guess no cookie for Shand, eh, GW?

Shandepard wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

But after game two a Reaper has
physically attacked the Citadel, giant Reaper parts have rained down on
the station and humans are being abducted by the thousands. Udina should
be going, "Hmm, maybe I should look into this after all..."

Remind
me, how many fleets did Anderson send out to stop the Collectors?

But Anderson KNOWS THE REAPERS EXIST. He acknowledges it, and he is pushing the Council to action. He's also certainly investigating the Collectors.

[OverlordNexas]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

OverlordNexas wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Udina's ranking and reputation is the representation of 11 odd billion people. Are you really going to say he should throw eleven billion to the wind for one's personal beliefs?

When it has no adverse affect on any of those 11 billion people sure. Say Shepard is crazy, and the Normandy finds nothing about the Reapers on Ilos. Nothing bad happens beyond wasting a couple of peoples time. But Shepard isn't crazy. The Reapers are real, and by preventing Shepard from going to Ilos Udina is putting the entire galaxy at danger.

And the only reason you know Shepard isn't crazy is because you're the player. Otherwise you'd be a dime a billion doomsayer.

There's a reason that big threats are so often ignored, and that's because they're even more often completely and utterly wrong, and often without any basing in reality.

Let's take the 'but on the off chance they're right' logic to, well, it's logical conclusion. Let's take the Westboro Baptist Church: you know, the family that preaches that all natural disasters, deaths from war, and everything bad that happens to the US is God's divine punishment for tolerating gays, and that worse is to follow. And by tolerating, I mean 'for not wiping them out.' And their solution is perhaps only a few steps away from stone the gays.

Totally, utterly, friggen nuts.

However, what if they aren't? What if they know the truth? If we ignore them and they're wrong, no big deal. But if they're right... we're all in for more mega disasters, acts of god, and a good eternity in hell for what we are and aren't doing.

Your argument is effectively that any halfway decent government must take any threats of dire catastrophe seriously and move to counter them: after all, its no big deal if nothing's there, but a lot of people will die if we do nothing. Congratulations: that train of thought ends at the ban-the-gays station. After all, if they just so happen to be right...




If that demonstration doesn't convince you, how about this. How would you react if I threatened to hack your identity and come to your house and kill you? Would you go to extreme lengths to take the safeguards to protect your life,
change everything about you, and move somewhere else and go into hiding? Or would you pass it off as the rambling of some guy on the internet?

No my argument is that any half-decent government should take the advice of one of their most distinguished agents who has the particular habit of being right most of the time. This especially should be the case when said agent has a relatively simple means of accomplishing their goals without having any sort of adverse affect on anyone.

Shepard isn't some simple loon preaching about the end times. He is a highly trained government agent whose job is to deal with this kind of bull****.

[Goodwood]

[quote]Shandepared wrote...

[quote]Goodwood wrote...

How does Anderson's defense mean a lot less?[/quote]

He's not advancing human interests in the first place and thus doesn't have much to defend.

We don't need to unite the galaxy now; it will serve no purpose. The kind of unity you seek has never existed anyway, nor will it. When the Reapers arrive I guarantee everyone will put aside their differences to fight a common enemy. In the meantime, Udina and Renegade Shepard will ensure that humanity is wealthy, politically powerful, and technologically advanced. Not having to organize a complex and chaotic galactic government will allow us to respond faster.[/quote][/quote]

Of course he's advancing human interests. He's just advancing them in a way you disapprove of, because it doesn't have the potential to lead to the dominance of humans that you so fervently wish for. Should I call a waaahmbulance for you?

We absolutely do need to unite the galaxy now. Do you think that the necessary unity to fight off the Reapers is going to magically happen overnight at the first sighting of the incoming fleet? If so, not only are you deluded, but you are dangerously so, because your delusions will cost us the galaxy. In order for Gondor humanity to call for aid, it first has to have reliable aid to call upon, and that means building political, economic, and military bridges.

[quote][quote]Goodwood wrote...

because it's always my level-headed and diplomatically-aware Shepard who proposes that the Council send her in to stop Saren. That way the Council doesn't have to send a fleet, and Udina gets his human Spectre. Everybody's happy.[/quote]

Certainly there are multiple ways to reach the same conclusions. My point there is that even if Shepard doesn't speak up (or calls the Council out on their BS), Udina makes a push and he gets what he wants. His approach works as good as yours does.

[/quote]

So basically your renegade Shepard is afraid to stand up for him/herself? That is quite telling.

[OverlordNexas]

Shandepared wrote...

OverlordNexas wrote...

Shepard isn't some simple loon
preaching about the end times. He is a highly trained government agent
whose job is to deal with this kind of bull****.

There
are astronauts who believe we are being spied on by aliens, should we
believe them?

Do astronauts normally give precise details as to what the aliens are, where they are from, what they are doing and where they are going? Because that is what Shepard does. He explains Saren's plans to use the Mu Relay, to go to Ilos, to use the Conduit. Sure s/he might not have proof as to what the Conduit does exactly, but still finding a lost mass relay to a forgotten planet is hardly something to scoff at.

[exterminator_]

Udina is a ****got and a cowardly short sighted politician



Anderson is the future of human race !!!



DEATH TO THE FUCCCKING BATARIANS !!!!

[Goodwood]

Shandepared wrote...

Goodwood wrote...

Of course he's advancing human interests. He's just advancing them in a way you disapprove of, because it doesn't have the potential to lead to the dominance of humans that you so fervently wish for.

He's holding us back, he's as bad as the Council. With him in charge we will always be just a bit player.

You've got a very odd grasp on how the galaxy is working in ME2 from the point of view that you don't metagame from. I suggest you actually gird your loins and struggle through a Paragon playthrough of both games before you continue this debate, because right now you're basically making stuff up out of whole cloth.

Goodwood wrote...

We absolutely do need to unite the galaxy now. Do you think that the necessary unity to fight off the Reapers is going to magically happen overnight at the first sighting of the incoming fleet?

Yes I do since it will prove that Shepard was right and that the entire galaxy is in imminent danger. Thankfully everyone will be militarized and advanced. Promoting peace now will only lull the galaxy into that false sense of security they had before Saren made his bid for the Citadel.

Even if that unity were to come at that point in the distant future (we don't know how long the Reapers' trek will take), and not built up before then through lots of actual diplomatic legwork (assuming there is anyone left alive in your games who knew how to work the system before Sovereign's attack), it would be a fragile front at best. Mass Effect lore makes it clear as day that the Reapers like to work through indoctrinated slaves and agents, and that kind of guerrilla warfare would tear such tenuous alliances apart before the first shot is even fired.

C'mon, get your head in the game for once. This isn't the way politics works.

Goodwood wrote...

If so, not only are you deluded, but you are dangerously so, because your delusions will cost us the galaxy. In order for Gondor humanity to call for aid, it first has to have reliable aid to call upon, and that means building political, economic, and military bridges.

If it isn't Vulcans its Tolkien. Wonderful. You are such a smart guy.

Why, thank you! I do so love to insert tidbits about fiction into debates about other fiction. It makes for some very spirited debate. You should try it some time.

Goodwood wrote...

So basically your renegade Shepard is afraid to stand up for him/herself? That is quite telling.

Afraid to stand up for himself? He called the Council out on their disregard for humanity's needs. I would consider that standing up for himself. Did he personally suggest the idea that the Council should make him a Spectre and send him after Saren? No, because he'd go after Saren with or without their approval.

So he b!tches at the Council but doesn't have the balls to make his own suggestions. In this case, it's not all about standing up for yourself, but also of being aware that you can't get everything you want just by shouting. Politics is just as much about compromise as it is taking a stand; showing that you're willing to work with others is a good way to get them to back you when it comes time to make your own stand. And even then, sometimes that stand has to be altered to gain the support it needs to become codified into action.

Again, you fail at diplomacy.

[MadCat221]

Shandepared wrote...

Remind
me, how many fleets did Anderson send out to stop the Collectors?

None, but not for a lack of trying.

[Nightwriter]

Shandepared wrote...

Goodwood wrote...

Of course he's advancing human interests. He's just advancing them in a way you disapprove of, because it doesn't have the potential to lead to the dominance of humans that you so fervently wish for.

He's holding us back, he's as bad as the Council. With him in charge we will always be just a bit player.

We'll never be overlords, no, which is want you really want, isn't it? We'll be equals. God forbid we actually cooperate intelligently with our galactic brothers and sisters, right Shand?

Shandepard wrote...

Goodwood wrote...

We absolutely do need to unite the galaxy now. Do you think that the necessary unity to fight off the Reapers is going to magically happen overnight at the first sighting of the incoming fleet?

Yes I do since it will prove that Shepard was right and that the entire galaxy is in imminent danger. Thankfully everyone will be militarized and advanced. Promoting peace now will only lull the galaxy into that false sense of security they had before Saren made his bid for the Citadel.

Uh, no. What's important is that the galaxy be united and  organized by the time the Reapers get here. If the Reapers come and we're not united or organized, yes, we'll all agree they need to be stopped, but it will just be a mess of separate fleets and militaries attacking the Reapers blind from different sectors of space without coordination, without intelligence.

It'll be a mess. We'll lose. We need to mobilize, coordinate, plan.

Shandepard wrote...

Goodwood wrote...

If so, not only are you deluded, but you are dangerously so, because your delusions will cost us the galaxy. In order for Gondor humanity to call for aid, it first has to have reliable aid to call upon, and that means building political, economic, and military bridges.

If it isn't Vulcans its Tolkien. Wonderful. You are such a smart guy.

I think he is.

[inversevideo]

Udina is a career politician, who spends a lot of time with his nose and lips pressed firmly into someone else's hind quarters.



At this point, Udina probably knows each of the alien council members, by scent alone.



The council knows that Udina is always ready to pucker up, and they can expect Udina not to unduly challenge the status quo.



Whereas Anderson, has shown that he has a full set, and will not sell out humanity, or tow the line, when that line is just plain wrong.

[Nightwriter]

inversevideo wrote...

Udina is a career politician, who spends a lot of time with his nose and lips pressed firmly into someone else's hind quarters.

At this point, Udina probably knows each of the alien council members, by scent alone.

The council knows that Udina is always ready to pucker up, and they can expect Udina not to unduly challenge the status quo.

Whereas Anderson, has shown that he has a full set, and will not sell out humanity, or tow the line, when that line is just plain wrong.

Omg, this post was an absolute riot. I lol'd so hard.

[enormousmoonboots]

Nightwriter wrote...

Shandepard wrote...

ThisIsMandess91 wrote...

Udina and the Council's skepticism when you had no proof was understandable, I can't deny that.

You've never had proof, you still don't have proof after ME2.

Anderson has more than just a "little bit of faith" in Shepard. He supports everything Shepard does without question.  It is a fault. Shepard is making some serious demands and to be taken seriously he needs to have proof. The only reason we know Shepard is telling the truth is because we're the player.

Again you insult positive traits and praise negative ones. Anderson trusts us, and it's not a fault. It's the only beacon of decency and hope in a whole freaking game filled with nothing but politicians and leaders who don't believe us.

I have a feeling that if Shandepard fell off a cliff, he'd be lying on the ground screaming NOT ENOUGH OF MY BONES ARE BROKEN and THIS GROUND IS TOO SOFT.

[Goodwood]

<<-- struggles to pick himself up off the floor from laughing...

[Nightwriter]

Goodwood wrote...

<<-- struggles to pick himself up off the floor from laughing...

*tries to help him up, fails, collapses from her own laughter next to him*

[ThisIsMadness91]

Shandepared wrote...

Remind
me, how many fleets did Anderson send out to stop the Collectors?

The same amout as Udina sent.

Shandepared wrote...

We don't need to unite the galaxy now; it will serve no purpose. The kind of unity you seek has never existed anyway, nor will it. When the Reapers arrive I guarantee everyone will put aside their differences to fight a common enemy. In the meantime, Udina and Renegade Shepard will ensure that humanity is wealthy, politically powerful, and technologically advanced. Not having to organize a complex and chaotic galactic government will allow us to respond faster.

Wait, what's Renegade Shep got to do with this? Maybe I'm misreading, but it sounds like you're trying to make your story the story.

Shandepared wrote...

There are astronauts who believe we are being spied on by aliens, should we believe them?

On the one hand, there's no reason to believe them. On the other hand, there's no reason not to. OverlordNexas also makes a great argument.

Inversevideo, that was hilarious! But at least in that case Udina's got a lovely asari's ass to kiss (even if she's just as dumb as the other two councillors)

[Beholderess]

inversevideo wrote...

Udina is a career politician, who spends a lot of time with his nose and lips pressed firmly into someone else's hind quarters.

At this point, Udina probably knows each of the alien council members, by scent alone.

The council knows that Udina is always ready to pucker up, and they can expect Udina not to unduly challenge the status quo.

Whereas Anderson, has shown that he has a full set, and will not sell out humanity, or tow the line, when that line is just plain wrong.

Great post!