Aller au contenu

Photo

"This meeting would be more productive if Udina were present."


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
152 réponses à ce sujet

#101
Guest_Shandepared_*

Guest_Shandepared_*
  • Guests

Nightwriter wrote...

We'll be equals.



Will we be as equal as the elcor, volus, hanar, quarians, or batarians? What makes you so sure we'll be equal to the Council? Why should we be equal to anybody? I say we live up to our true potential and if anyone can attain equal status with us then good for them. However there is no reason to hold ourselves back just for their benefit.

They're not our brothers or sisters, they aren't even our friends. They rival nations who may at times be allies. Nothing more, nothing less.

Nightwriter wrote...

Uh, no. What's important is that the galaxy be united and  organized by the time the Reapers get here. If the Reapers come and we're not united or organized, yes, we'll all agree they need to be stopped, but it will just be a mess of separate fleets and militaries attacking the Reapers blind from different sectors of space without coordination, without intelligence.


Hardly. An Alliance does not work the way you think it works. Having the militaries stay segregated from one another will allow them to take action more quickly and easily. Fighting 'side by side' will bury each in politics and the military chain of command. All that happens when you form an Alliance is you share intelligence and agree upon a broad strategy. The details are left to each individual nation on how they will reach their goals.

Humanity and the turians will be more than ready for this thanks to their military build-up and race for a technological edge. Conflict is good for advancement.

#102
RigAudio

RigAudio
  • Members
  • 852 messages
Why don't the humans have a little podium in the hologram thingie?

#103
Massadonious1

Massadonious1
  • Members
  • 2 792 messages
Ambassador Udina: The Turian Hirearchy calls him a diplomatic incident waiting to happen.

#104
Massadonious1

Massadonious1
  • Members
  • 2 792 messages

RigAudio wrote...

Why don't the humans have a little podium in the hologram thingie?


Because it was Anderson's room?

#105
Pacifien

Pacifien
  • Members
  • 11 527 messages

RigAudio wrote...

Why don't the humans have a little podium in the hologram thingie?


Only three podiums at the Council Chambers. They tried putting in a fourth, but a Keeper took it away. Anderson has to phone it in.

#106
RyrineaNara

RyrineaNara
  • Members
  • 2 199 messages
The thing is I just can't stand it when they say that to my face. I picked Anderson, and you should be happy about my pick. Plus, I just think Undia is a political disaster waiting to happen, since he likes to ****** off every body in the game including Shepard.= Big mistake right their you basically pissed off the one female/Male that could actually save your ass in ME3.

#107
Jax Sparrow

Jax Sparrow
  • Members
  • 679 messages
The impression I got is that Udina has been playing political mind games and trying to usurp the power of Anderson. I would rather put a bullet in his head but I seemed to have to wait longer to get that option. Like Shepard said... "no one stabs me in the back and gets away with it, Udina"

#108
Guest_Shandepared_*

Guest_Shandepared_*
  • Guests

Jax Sparrow wrote...

Like Shepard said... "no one stabs me in the back and gets away with it, Udina"


He never stabbed you in the back.

#109
Massadonious1

Massadonious1
  • Members
  • 2 792 messages
You're right, he stabs you in the front.

Modifié par Massadonious1, 20 avril 2010 - 05:58 .


#110
Nightfish103

Nightfish103
  • Members
  • 164 messages
Why does the council want Udina? I have just one line for you:



"Ah, yes. "Reapers".... We have dismissed that claim"



The council are a bunch of morons. I rest my case.

#111
Jax Sparrow

Jax Sparrow
  • Members
  • 679 messages

Shandepared wrote...

Jax Sparrow wrote...

Like Shepard said... "no one stabs me in the back and gets away with it, Udina"


He never stabbed you in the back.

um... yes he did.  He sent a message to Shepard misleading him into thinking the Council was going to send the fleet to Ilos.  After he got there, he tried to trap Shepard on the Citadel and doom the entire galaxy in doing so.  That qualifies as 'stabbing in the back'.

#112
Guest_Shandepared_*

Guest_Shandepared_*
  • Guests
[quote]Jax Sparrow wrote...

He never stabbed you in the back. [/quote]um... yes he did.  He sent a message to Shepard misleading him into thinking the Council was going to send the fleet to Ilos.  After he got there, he tried to trap Shepard on the Citadel and doom the entire galaxy in doing so.  That qualifies as 'stabbing in the back'.[/quote]

No, that is him doing his job. You seem to think he was under some obligation to explain himself to you or to get your permission before taking action. The Council was tired of your ranting and to keep humanity from being embarassed he locked down the Normandy to save face.

At least he had a courtesy to congratulate you for finally mobilizing the Council to take some action.

#113
Massadonious1

Massadonious1
  • Members
  • 2 792 messages
If his job is to be a power hungry kiss ass, then yeah, he did his job quite well.

#114
Guest_Shandepared_*

Guest_Shandepared_*
  • Guests

Massadonious1 wrote...

If his job is to be a power hungry kiss ass, then yeah, he did his job quite well.


If you're looking for a kiss-ass then you need to talk about Captain Anderson.

#115
Massadonious1

Massadonious1
  • Members
  • 2 792 messages
Because he totally was the one that decided to be the Council's bootlicker and side with the council in regards to the Normandy needing to be grounded.

Have you played the same game as the rest of us? Or are you just a big fan of weasely politicians?

Modifié par Massadonious1, 20 avril 2010 - 06:44 .


#116
Goodwood

Goodwood
  • Members
  • 2 743 messages

Shandepared wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Uh, no. What's important is that the galaxy be united and  organized by the time the Reapers get here. If the Reapers come and we're not united or organized, yes, we'll all agree they need to be stopped, but it will just be a mess of separate fleets and militaries attacking the Reapers blind from different sectors of space without coordination, without intelligence.


Hardly. An Alliance does not work the way you think it works. Having the militaries stay segregated from one another will allow them to take action more quickly and easily. Fighting 'side by side' will bury each in politics and the military chain of command. All that happens when you form an Alliance is you share intelligence and agree upon a broad strategy. The details are left to each individual nation on how they will reach their goals.

Humanity and the turians will be more than ready for this thanks to their military build-up and race for a technological edge. Conflict is good for advancement.


Holy crap, have you even read a single history book in your entire life? By the Force, man, if alliances worked the way you say they should work, then the Axis Powers would have won World War II! Have you never heard of SHAEF? Have you never even imagined how MacArthur took Papua New Guinea back from the Japanese? You've got your head wedged firmly up your own ass, but you don't care. It's all about rhetoric, and getting a rise out of those of us who have enough sense to see that being a giant d!ckhead is not the way to win friends and influence people.

The Council was operating as a balance of alliances, shared interests, and networks of economies when the Roman Empire was still trying to figure out how to consolidate Germania (hint: the Romans never could). Sure they made mistakes, but they survived the Rachni Wars, the Krogan Rebellions, and how many other unmentioned trials and tribulations before we had even learned how to fly! Those of us with working eyes, working ears, and half a functional brain can see that they have far more experience at galactic governence than humanity has at governence period! The only way that the galaxy is going to survive the coming invasion is by building on what has come before and moving forward as a unified front. That is how the Allies won WWII, that's how they won WWI, and that's how we "won" the Cold War (it wasn't all because of "St. Reagan" either).

At the dawn of the American Revolution, a wise man once said "We must be willing to hang together, or we shall surely hang separately." Those words resonate with the situation the galaxy now faces; it's all or nothing, boys and girls, time to pony up or get the hell out of the game. If upstart little jerks like you want to play empire, you do so at the cost of the entire galaxy, humanity included.

Modifié par Goodwood, 20 avril 2010 - 06:48 .


#117
Guest_Shandepared_*

Guest_Shandepared_*
  • Guests

Goodwood wrote...

Holy crap, have you even read a single history book in your entire life?


Yes, and Alliances are fairly loose. American generals did not order around British generals. Allied troops don't literally fight side by side; they each have their own corner of the theater or even a separate theater entirely. What is most important in an alliance is coordinating intelligence and agreeing upon a strategy.

You know why friendly fire incidents happen in Afghanistan and Iraq? American and British troops don't directly communicate. If the Americans need to ID a suspicious formation on the ground they have to radio back to their HQ who has to radio to the Brits or whomever else may be in that area and then they have to radio their commanders and find out who is on the ground and where. Then they have to relay all that information back until it reaches the American pilots who may have already fired because they can't afford to wait and get shot down.

That's how it works because no government is going to give control of their military over to a foreign power. With the multi-racial Council all the species need to agree before they can send their fleet do anything. Ultimately the Council races aren't gonna send their fleet in to defend anybody unless they can get something out of it. So far they haven't been terribly interested in working with humantiy, even if you saved them. Contrary-wise, if you replaced them with all humans then once they've consolidated their forces we'll be able to take unilateral action without having to win the approval of anyone else.

When the Reapers hit we'll be capable of defending ourselve with our without anyone's help. Regardless, as long as it is better for the turians to help us than to stay neutral or work against us they'll join in. That remains true regardless of whether they are still on the Council or not. Wars are about resources, about money, and convenience, and nothing else.

Goodwood wrote...

The Council was operating as a balance of alliances, shared interests, and networks of economies when the Roman Empire was still trying to figure out how to consolidate Germania (hint: the Romans never could). Sure they made mistakes, but they survived the Rachni Wars, the Krogan Rebellions, and how many other unmentioned trials and tribulations before we had even learned how to fly!


All of that is completely irrelevant, not to mention the Morning War and Krogan Rebellions are not positive points in the Council's history. Even more recently we have their failure to act against the Saren and the geth. The Council hasn't fought a real war in a thousand years, they no longer have the political capability or the willpower to fight. Humanity though hasn't been lulled into pacifism by ten centuries of peace. There is a reason we were able to compete with the turians despite having only a tiny fraction of the experience in space, there is a reason we and not they are the only species developing novel technologies like medigel, the Normandy, and fighter carriers.

Interesting you should bring up Europe. They were the leading world powers for centuries and yet their experience failed to stop two world wars. Under the United States no such global castastrophes have occured. Even the Cold War never went hot. Ultimately a multipolar world is dangerous; everyone is better off with only one big power.


Goodwood wrote...

Those of us with working eyes, working ears, and half a functional brain can see that they have far more experience at galactic governence than humanity has at governence period!


All of that experience has amounted to nothing as I just explained. The Council races have stagnated and have only maintained their farce of piece by sacrificing the needs of the arrogantly named "lesser races". The galaxy needs new leadership.

#118
Amethyst Deceiver

Amethyst Deceiver
  • Members
  • 937 messages

Nightwriter wrote...

Maybe Anderson, Hackett and Udina were reviewing a list of possible Council-favored candidates.

yeah. they wrote a whole bunch of candidate names on the underside of a cave ceiling.

along with Shepard there was also Ford, Kwon, and Reyes i think. with a whole bunch of other names crossed out. it must have taken them a long time to put Shepard forward.

Modifié par Amethyst Deceiver, 20 avril 2010 - 07:22 .


#119
ThisIsMadness91

ThisIsMadness91
  • Members
  • 673 messages

Shandepared wrote...

No, that is him doing his job. You seem to think he was under some obligation to explain himself to you or to get your permission before taking action. The Council was tired of your ranting and to keep humanity from being embarassed he locked down the Normandy to save face.

At least he had a courtesy to congratulate you for finally mobilizing the Council to take some action.


So it's okay to get in the way of the one person who did anything to stop Saren as long as it makes humanity look good?

And as I said before, people have different interpetations of ass-kissing. We see Udina as an ass-kisser, you see Anderson as one. Let's agree to disagree.

#120
Guest_Shandepared_*

Guest_Shandepared_*
  • Guests

ThisIsMadness91 wrote...


So it's okay to get in the way of the one person who did anything to stop Saren as long as it makes humanity look good?


Yeah, pretty much. The Council and Udina felt Shepard had done his job.

ThisIsMadness91 wrote...

And as I said before, people have different interpetations of ass-kissing. We see Udina as an ass-kisser, you see Anderson as one. Let's agree to disagree.


The difference is that your accusation that Udina is an ass-kisser is baseless and contradictory. If he were an ass-kisser he wouldn't be "diplomatic incident waiting to happen". Being an ass-kisser would mean he never rocks the boat. However Udina doesn't isn't afraid to stand firm against anybody, unlike Anderson who acts like Shepard's lap dog.

#121
Dean_the_Young

Dean_the_Young
  • Members
  • 20 676 messages

OverlordNexas wrote...

No my argument is that any half-decent government should take the advice of one of their most distinguished agents who has the particular habit of being right most of the time. This especially should be the case when said agent has a relatively simple means of accomplishing their goals without having any sort of adverse affect on anyone.

Shepard isn't some simple loon preaching about the end times. He is a highly trained government agent whose job is to deal with this kind of bull****.

Shepard is also a person with an extremely traumatic past who was forcibly linked into an alient mind-projection beacon which burned extreme but alien projections into his mind.

Yes, Shepard is a psych risk. He is a very talented psych risk, but his sanity is not beyond question.

Shepard is also just one government agent among many, and the one thing he was right about was that Saren was a traitor... something that he and Anderson were convinced about even before reliable proof came forward.

The Council has plenty of experts with professional histories longer than Shepard's who can tell them that Shepard is mentally disturbed and that the Reapers aren't realistic. You have yet to explain why they should accept Shepard's word as gospel, except for that he's you.

Tell me, are you really going to make the argument that Shepard is infallible? 

#122
FlintlockJazz

FlintlockJazz
  • Members
  • 2 710 messages

Dean_the_Young wrote...

OverlordNexas wrote...

No my argument is that any half-decent government should take the advice of one of their most distinguished agents who has the particular habit of being right most of the time. This especially should be the case when said agent has a relatively simple means of accomplishing their goals without having any sort of adverse affect on anyone.

Shepard isn't some simple loon preaching about the end times. He is a highly trained government agent whose job is to deal with this kind of bull****.

Shepard is also a person with an extremely traumatic past who was forcibly linked into an alient mind-projection beacon which burned extreme but alien projections into his mind.

Yes, Shepard is a psych risk. He is a very talented psych risk, but his sanity is not beyond question.

Shepard is also just one government agent among many, and the one thing he was right about was that Saren was a traitor... something that he and Anderson were convinced about even before reliable proof came forward.

The Council has plenty of experts with professional histories longer than Shepard's who can tell them that Shepard is mentally disturbed and that the Reapers aren't realistic. You have yet to explain why they should accept Shepard's word as gospel, except for that he's you.

Tell me, are you really going to make the argument that Shepard is infallible? 




Exactly, this is a prime example of why the saying "Its not paranoia if they really are out to get you" is actually completely wrong: it doesn't matter if someone is out to get you or not, if you suspect someone of being after you for no reason whatsoever, and have no evidence to show that they are, then it is indicative of paranoia even if it just happens to also be right.  In the GURPS system, they also point out in the description for the Delusion disadvantage that just because your delusion about being the son of the king who was abducted by gypsies when you were a baby turns out to be true doesn't mean that you aren't still delusional! :lol:

The Council had a guy (Shepard) yelling at them that Saren was a traitor, just because Saren turns out to be a traitor later does not mean that his previous reasoning was sound, just that he happened to be right.  Though I do also believe that the Council themselves may actually be looking into the whole Reaper thing alot more than they let on, after all Shepard's loyalty is suspect in ME2 from the Council point of view, so they are not going to tell him everything.

#123
ThisIsMadness91

ThisIsMadness91
  • Members
  • 673 messages

Shandepared wrote...

ThisIsMadness91 wrote...


So it's okay to get in the way of the one person who did anything to stop Saren as long as it makes humanity look good?


Yeah, pretty much. The Council and Udina felt Shepard had done his job.

ThisIsMadness91 wrote...

And as I said before, people have different interpetations of ass-kissing. We see Udina as an ass-kisser, you see Anderson as one. Let's agree to disagree.


The difference is that your accusation that Udina is an ass-kisser is baseless and contradictory. If he were an ass-kisser he wouldn't be "diplomatic incident waiting to happen". Being an ass-kisser would mean he never rocks the boat. However Udina doesn't isn't afraid to stand firm against anybody, unlike Anderson who acts like Shepard's lap dog.


I see we'll never convince you to see our side for once. Let us worship Anderson, and we'll let you worship Udina.

#124
Bigdoser

Bigdoser
  • Members
  • 2 575 messages
Udina almost doomed the galaxy and anderson helped saved it, Jacob said it best at the start of the game when I selected anderson as counciler.

#125
Maestro975

Maestro975
  • Members
  • 239 messages

Nightwriter wrote...

Collider wrote...


But really, any politician, any ambassador, would've done the same thing. It's their job. Udina's not special in that way.

Except that he put forth Shepard in the first place. It isn't his job to put them forth, it's his ability. The fact that he chose to put anyone forth, and the fact that he chose Shepard was important. I'm not saying that he's the perfect politician. But that he's more skilled politically than Anderson.


You know, for the first time I think I disagree with you.

The very beginning conversation of Mass Effect 1 was Hackett, Anderson, and Udina discussing Shepard's candidacy, and if I remember correctly Udina is always the one who says, "Is that the kind of person we want", etc.

Anderson's always the one who says Shepard's the right one, and then Udina says, "I'll make the call."

Besides, Udina's not a better man than Anderson for the job. He did an awful job of being calm and politically savvy in game one, and his superior "skills" would've resulted in the whole galaxy getting destroyed. Yeah. Great politician.


Anderson's a soldier, not a diplomat. With Udina, vice versa. That's why the one you pick keeps the other around.

That said, with the ME2 council, they seem to be drawing a parellel to Neville Chamberlain (the bumbling idiot who saw Hitler get real powerful and didn't do anything until it's too late). Anderson is more like Winston Churchill. But Churchill was constantly butting heads with Parliament, Chamberlain catered to their style more, which was his saving grace.