152 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Chamberlain's one of those historical figures who gets short shrift by public history. It tends to be forgotten that some of the loudest people pushing Chamberlain to appease were the British military. Why? Because they didn't think they could win a fight at the time, not until reforms and the British military buildup were given more time to work. Reforms and buildup started by... Neville Chamberlain.



When Chamberlain felt he had a military that could make him give more than hollow words, he did.

[Beholderess]

Bigdoser wrote...

Udina almost doomed the galaxy and anderson helped saved it, Jacob said it best at the start of the game when I selected anderson as counciler.

This.

[Dean_the_Young]

Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.



Well, that would be once a day in Anderson's case. He's military. [/joke]



More seriously, if someone is right for the wrong reasons and someone else is wrong for the right reasons, it doesn't make the first person superior to the second.

[Halmiriliath]

Shandepared wrote...
Interesting you should bring up Europe. They were the leading world powers for centuries and yet their experience failed to stop two world wars. Under the United States no such global castastrophes have occured. Even the Cold War never went hot. Ultimately a multipolar world is dangerous; everyone is better off with only one big power.

*Puts on history hat*

Ah, but up until the world wars the ultimate recourse between European rivals was war. Europe existed in a state of international anarchy, where it was a case of the strongest surviving and conflict being the norm. Moreover, hostilities expanded to encompass Europe when a particular power sought to establish predominance over the others - the War of Spanish Succession checking French dominance, the alliance against Britain in the American Revolutionary War. The human cost of this perpetual state of conflict was disgusting, and placing one power on top results in bitterness that will only breed more conflict and more loss of life. By the time the US and the USSR became the leading superpowers the UN and more effective diplomatic channels were now in place, and the bitter experiences of two world wars meant that nations were less inclined to go to war.

*Takes history hat off* 

With that comparison in mind, I always assumed that the Council serves as something akin to the UN with greater authority, while the Spectres act as a peacekeeping task force that are ready to employ force if they deem it necessary. Personally, I'd like to see some kind of galactic parliament that can legislate and check the authority of the Council, and maybe even a Committee that tries to hold the Spectres to account to avoid any more situations like Saren. Or maybe such a thing exists and I completely missed the codex entries/back lore.

Peace can be maintained between different races/peoples, so long as you work at it. All stand to benefit if you work together, and as Goodwood said in his excellent post/s, unity provides protection. A vote for Anderson is the way of the future, the way of the future, the way of the future...

Modifié par Halmiriliath, 20 avril 2010 - 10:12 .

[Dean_the_Young]

I like the campaigning.

[Nibroc17]

RhythmlessNinja wrote...
In all fairness, Turian Councilor wins the biggest ****** award, so they probably were able to tolerate Udina from experience. And according yo Anderson Udina was better with the political bs.

lols watch this whole time he was playing devil's advocate and has secretly been building weapons and ships to fight the reapers.

Modifié par Nibroc17, 20 avril 2010 - 04:34 .

[Nibroc17]

Shandepared wrote...

Anderson does nothing but agree with what Shepard says. That's what I mean by kiss-ass. You only like him because he always does what you want him to. Udina on the other dares to defy you and so you hate him. Same reason most people hate Kaidan/Ashley for not dropping everything and running off with Shepard on Horizon.

ANYONE who isn't with shepard is with the reapers or out for themselves.

Shandepared wrote...

Udina is a politician and he has no obligation to Shepard what-so-ever.  Thanks to him you were made Spectre, Saren was exposed, you got the Normandy, and the Council and other concerned parties stayed off your back as you tore up the Traverse. He had your back defending you the entire time.

Then at the end after the Council has indicated that they think you are mentally unstable he grounded you to prevent your raving from damaging humanity's standing with the Council. Odd that you would call him a kiss-ass while also slamming him for taking a hardline stance against the Council when they refused to send in their fleeet to protect human colonies and then even threatened to pull out of the Citadel over it when they still refused to take action after Saren was exposed.

So which is it?

You assume that Udina is out for himself but what proof do you have? I think you're just projecting.

And WTF?! everything Udina does and say's is for his own benefit. did you skip through what he said every time he spook.

[Dean_the_Young]

You know, considering the number of people who say 'FU, I'd rather go back to the Alliance than work with Cerberus, even though you revived me' to TIM, I'm rather amazed at how much hate goes to Ash/Kaiden for, you know, staying with the Alliance and not joining up with a xeno-nationalist survivalist group.



It's not like it's even impossible for the player to not have the real Shepard. You could be a clone or a cyborg who's being told he's the real thing on the off chance hope that he will be. (Yes, you're not, but Ash/Kaiden hardly have proof that you are the real deal.)





As for Udina being selfish, I'm still waiting for someone to provide a case of that in ME1 that isn't reasonably explained by him doing his job.

[Jax Sparrow]

Shandepared wrote...  No, that is him doing his job. You seem to think he was under some obligation to explain himself to you or to get your permission before taking action. The Council was tired of your ranting and to keep humanity from being embarassed he locked down the Normandy to save face.

At least he had a courtesy to congratulate you for finally mobilizing the Council to take some action.

Considering that I {Shepard} am the first human Specter and could end him without any repercussions?  yes he does need my permission to go to the outhouse... Considering how things played out? things might have gone a whole lot better for him had he asked for my permission first.

Again, whether it is his job to stab me in the back or not is irrelevant to the fact that he stabbed me in the back.  As Shepard says though, that is just how politicians operate;  They seem incapable of understanding how to live with honor and virtue.  They lie, cheat, steal, and stab people in the back as often as they breath.  Never-the-less, I am biding my time to when BioWare gives me the option to give him a brain hemorrhage.

Since you seem to have trouble understanding what backstabbing is I decided to help you with searching for a common definition of stabbing someone in the back:
Idiom: stab (someone) in the back
- To harm (someone) by treachery or betrayal of trust.
See, Udina shamed Shepard by lying to him in a monumental betrayal of Shepard's trust.  This is how what Udina did, does in fact fit the idiom of stabbing someone in the back exactly.

[Dean_the_Young]

Spectres are beyond the law, not beyond repercussions. A spectre who missteps can have his title revoked: a Spectre is only beyond the law so long as the Council can turn a blind eye. Murdering the representative of 11 billion humans is not. The Council may or may not do anything outright, but there's nothing keeping the Alliance from doing so in any number of ways. It's their ship, their crew, and their Lietenant/Sergeant on your team, along with a host of other things they can do. The difference between a Renegade and a Rogue is that one is deadly but ultimately loyal, and the other will just plain be dead.



Any Spectre who doesn't understand the nature of their station and engages in petty impulsive murder is too juvenile to deserve the status.

[Jax Sparrow]

Did I say I {Shepard} would be obvious about it? I missed that memo. But if a Spectre wants you dead, probability is high that you will end up dead, one way, or another.  There is a reason they were made a Spectre afterall, they get the job done.

Modifié par Jax Sparrow, 20 avril 2010 - 07:41 .

[CrookedAsylum]

Anderson is obviously better than Udina because his face was actually modeled after someone.

[ThisIsMadness91]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

As for Udina being selfish, I'm still waiting for someone to provide a case of that in ME1 that isn't reasonably explained by him doing his job.

I suppose my main gripe with Udina isn't because he's doing his job, but because what he's doing makes my job harder. Of course, I'm sure that if we tried to tell Shand that Anderson was doing his job (that is, defending humanity from a military threat), he would still try to make it sound like he's just an asskisser. I can see what he means, but every time he insults the one person who had faith in you, and suggests that Udina is indisputably superior, my blood boils.

[Nightwriter]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

You know, considering the number of people who say 'FU, I'd rather go back to the Alliance than work with Cerberus, even though you revived me' to TIM, I'm rather amazed at how much hate goes to Ash/Kaiden for, you know, staying with the Alliance and not joining up with a xeno-nationalist survivalist group.

It's not like it's even impossible for the player to not have the real Shepard. You could be a clone or a cyborg who's being told he's the real thing on the off chance hope that he will be. (Yes, you're not, but Ash/Kaiden hardly have proof that you are the real deal.)

I would rather go back to the Alliance, and I was a bit angry at Horizon, but only because of the writing.

They really didn't let you explain yourself at all - Ashley acted like me and Cerberus were bosom buddies and that I was personally and intentionally betraying her or something. There was really no, "But I don't trust Cerberus and I have no choice" option.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

As for Udina being selfish, I'm still waiting for someone to provide a case of that in ME1 that isn't reasonably explained by him doing his job.

You have to understand this is a purely emotional reaction to his behavior.

For instance... as soon as you meet Udina, Anderson brings him the ground troops from Eden Prime "in case he has questions" and Udina says coolly, "I have  the reports from Eden Prime - I assume they're accurate?" A bit snide, a bit jerkish, and it makes you dislike him a little bit - then he goes on to blame Shepard for everything and you really dislike him.

Or, when you bring Udina the evidence against Saren and he whisks it away and presents it to the Council without so much as a thank you - he's gotten what he wanted, you were a means to an end. Selfishness.

Most of all that cool, satisfied, smoothly calculating way he turns on you during the Council meeting. Sells you down the river because it is politically expedient to do so and he derives inordinate personal pleasure from his political successes. All these little ways Bioware was telling us YOU DO NOT LIKE THIS GUY, HE IS AN ASS*HOLE.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 20 avril 2010 - 08:52 .

[saMoorai]

how about this for proof shepard warns the council about a reaper attack... they are then attacked

shepard informs them that sovereign, Saren's ship is a reaper.... its seen at the head of the geth fleet and it takes a WHOLE fleet to take it down

and all this happens right before shepard comes to save the day.

[Nightwriter]

saMOOrai182 wrote...

how about this for proof shepard warns the council about a reaper attack... they are then attacked
shepard informs them that sovereign, Saren's ship is a reaper.... its seen at the head of the geth fleet and it takes a WHOLE fleet to take it down
and all this happens right before shepard comes to save the day.

Ah yes, "Proof." We have dismissed that claim.

[ThisIsMadness91]

Shandepared wrote...

ThisIsMadness91 wrote...

I see we'll never convince you to see our side for once. Let us worship Anderson, and we'll let you worship Udina.

2 < 3

...I have to be honest, I never really got what Legion's point was there

[InvaderErl]

That both conclusions are logical.

[FlintlockJazz]

You know, the real reason the council is denying the reapers is because they have already come up with a secret weapon to take them out: the Multi-Incendiary Nuclear Solution Cannon, refered to as Minsc for short, whose firing mechanism has already been installed on the Normandy without Shepard's knowledge in the form of a miniature giant space hamster (masquerading as a normal space hamster). Once the Normandy confronts the reapers, the Council will broadcast the location of the space hamster through time and space, triggering the Minsc. The crew of the Normandy will abandon ship as the Minsc impacts it at high speed, and once reunited with the hamster will then 'notice' the evilness that surrounds him and commence buttkicking the reapers for justice. With swords.



Its all so clear that I can't believe people haven't worked it out sooner.

[Onyx Jaguar]

The Minsc will be the Final Insult to the Reapers. Nothing can stand in the Minsc's way!

[FlintlockJazz]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

The Minsc will be the Final Insult to the Reapers. Nothing can stand in the Minsc's way!

Full plate and packing steel!  His battle cry will be heard aboard the Normandy as they flee the carnage:

"Reapers, meet my sword.  Sword, MEET REAPERS!!!"

[Dean_the_Young]

I knew a cat named Minsc once. Weaponizing it strikes me as an entirely sensible plan.