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[Serissia]

Sandtigress wrote...
Actually, I'm of the opinion that Loghain has no idea who Alistair's real mother is, if it is indeed Fiona.  He was either lied to, or came up with the lie himself, and Maric let it slide.  The main reason for that is that Loghain would NEVER let a half-Orlesian sit on the throne, even if he was Maric's son, and that's exactly what Alistair is, if Fiona is his mother.  He's half-Orlesian, elf-blooded, and the son of  Grey Warden, and at least two of those things are apparently anathema to Loghain (though Orlesians and Wardens are equated in his mind for the most part).

Since Loghain wasn't there when Fiona came, I'm of the opinion that Maric either told him flat out or let him believe that this bastard son was conceived while Rowan was alive - its a logical reason to hide his presence from Loghain in the first place, considering their relationship, and would conceal the real identity of the child's mother, because Loghain would never, ever stand for it.

Maric was admittedly a very bad liar but I suppose that excuse might of worked on Loghain.  If Loghain had a weakness other than his hatred of Orlais it was Rowan. 

[MelRedux]

Sandtigress wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...

I think Loghain's comment about it ruining Rowan is part of the story to keep Alistair's birth a secret. I think Loghain knew full well who Alistair's mother was, but he would have stuck to the story to protect Maric and then Maric's memory. When you live with a lie for 21 years, it sort of becomes truth, Loghain himself might think it would have ruined Rowan's memory; Maric having another son with an elf.

Actually, I'm of the opinion that Loghain has no idea who Alistair's real mother is, if it is indeed Fiona.  He was either lied to, or came up with the lie himself, and Maric let it slide.  The main reason for that is that Loghain would NEVER let a half-Orlesian sit on the throne, even if he was Maric's son, and that's exactly what Alistair is, if Fiona is his mother.  He's half-Orlesian, elf-blooded, and the son of  Grey Warden, and at least two of those things are apparently anathema to Loghain (though Orlesians and Wardens are equated in his mind for the most part).

Since Loghain wasn't there when Fiona came, I'm of the opinion that Maric either told him flat out or let him believe that this bastard son was conceived while Rowan was alive - its a logical reason to hide his presence from Loghain in the first place, considering their relationship, and would conceal the real identity of the child's mother, because Loghain would never, ever stand for it.

That's a good point...who's to say that Loghain knew who the mother was?

Maric: Hey Loghain!  Guess what?  I have a son!
Loghain: 0.o  Who's the mother??
Maric: er...uh... a  scullery maid!  yeah that sounds good.  Definitely was not a Orlesian/Elf/Grey Warden.  Definitely not one of those.

[LadyDamodred]

Tellign Loghain Alistair was conceived while Rowan was alive isn't possible. The baby is way too young. And Loghain does his damnedest to keep Alistair off the throne. By the time he loses at the Landsmeet, he has no power to prevent it. And I think for Loghain, being Maric's son trumps the half-Orlesian part. I also don't thin Loghain would care about the half-elf thing either. It's one of the most baffling parts of DAO for me. After we saw his Night Elves in TST, how could he do that?

I think Maric would have told Loghain because he needed some he trusted to know as well. Whatever bad blood was between them, I still think Maric trusted Loghain. And it would be hard to keep it a secret. And what wouldn't Loghain stand for? Alistair's existance? He's being raised to never know his true heritage, to never even think about having a claim to the throne.

This is just my opinion, of course.

Modifié par LadyDamodred, 20 avril 2010 - 01:32 .

[Sandtigress]

That's why I say that Loghain might have just come up with it on his own. Loghain knows very very little about Alistair (the only evidence you ought to need for this is that he claims that Alistair is nothing like Maric, when anyone who has read the books can see how like his father he is). Its possible he didn't even know about Alistair until much later in his life. He may have come to his own conclusions about Alistair's origins (i.e. that he was conceived when Rowan was still alive, because if she was dead, why hide his existence from Maric's best friend) and Maric just let him believe it.

[Sandtigress]

LadyDamodred wrote...

Tellign Loghain Alistair was conceived while Rowan was alive isn't possible. The baby is way too young. .

But there's no reason to believe that Loghain knew about the baby when he was still a baby.  If he didn't find out until the boy was older, then fudging his age by a few years to pretend that Rowan had still been alive wouldn't be too difficult.

[LadyDamodred]

Rowan was dead for nearly three years before Alistair was born. Thinking Alistair was conceived while she was still alive is not possible.



Loghain will also say that Maric nearly acknowledged the boy, but didn't. And if he had, what kind of life would Alistair have had? "At least this way, Alistair had a childhood." That to me says Loghain knew very early on about Alistair.

[Sandtigress]

LadyDamodred wrote...

Rowan was dead for nearly three years before Alistair was born. Thinking Alistair was conceived while she was still alive is not possible.

Loghain will also say that Maric nearly acknowledged the boy, but didn't. And if he had, what kind of life would Alistair have had? "At least this way, Alistair had a childhood." That to me says Loghain knew very early on about Alistair.

Or he applied the thinking retroactively.  Maric acknowledging Alistair would have gone completely against what Fiona wanted for him.  But Loghain thinking about what Maric would have done...I think alot of what Loghain says is purely how he saw things, and not how things really were.

Modifié par Sandtigress, 20 avril 2010 - 02:23 .

[LadyDamodred]

I will concede that it is possible. We simply don't know. I just think it more likely that Maric would have told Loghain, and Loghain in turn would have done what was necessary to protect Maric and Rowan's memory.

[Serissia]

Maric trusted Loghain but he also wasn't above just doing what he felt was necessary after Rowan died. The combination of killing Katriel and Rowan dying changed Maric. Maric lies to Loghain and takes off with the Wardens after all in TC.

It's possible that Loghain didn't find out about the child until he was in Eamon's care. It's a fact that at some point while Alistair was in Eamon's care that a majority of the nobility became aware that Maric had a bastard son.

Modifié par Serissia, 20 avril 2010 - 01:59 .

[Sandtigress]

Serissia wrote...

It's possible that Loghain didn't find out about the child until he was in Eamon's care. It's a fact that at some point while Alistair was in Eamon's care that a majority of the nobility became aware that Maric had a bastard son.

Actually, it doesn't seem to have happened until some time after Ostagar, and I'd venture its not until Eamon calls the Landsmeet, and then rumors start as to why Eamon is calling one and what card he has up his sleeve to use against Anora and Loghain.

Alistair says that only Duncan knew amongst the Grey Wardens, and in that conversation it just feels like its still a pretty well-kept secret.  No one mentions it amongst the rumor mongers during the game, Loghain is only hunting for you and not the potential heir to the throne, which to me would have been the smart thing had he considered Eamon  using Alistair to make a bid for the throne.  He certainly doesn't seem to have any compunctions against killing Alistair at the Landsmeet, so I don't think residual loyalty to Maric held him back beforehand.

I think prior to Ostagar, only Cailan (and through him Anora) knew about Alistair, in addition to Duncan, Eamon/Teagan/maybe Isolde.

[Serissia]

If you question Alistair about why he didn't tell you he also says that people treated him differently once they found out. He was talking about his fellows in the Chantry. He says something along the lines of the poor people thought he put on airs while the nobility rejected him and called him a bastard. They must of known, there would be no reason to make such a fuss of a generic bastard.. there was probably hundreds of them in the Chantry.

[LadyDamodred]

I think those in the Chantry though he was Eamon's bastard. I think some people found out he was Maric's throughout his life, and it was always kept hushed, but that's where treating him differently came in.

[Sandtigress]

Serissia wrote...

If you question Alistair about why he didn't tell you he also says that people treated him differently once they found out. He was talking about his fellows in the Chantry. He says something along the lines of the poor people thought he put on airs while the nobility rejected him and called him a bastard. They must of known, there would be no reason to make such a fuss of a generic bastard.. there was probably hundreds of them in the Chantry.

Actually, I don't think they treated him like that because he was Maric's son...I think those two conversations are separate.

He was raised at Castle Redcliffe, even if he was a bastard child.  And he likely had a bit of an education, probably living a rather confusing "lives in the stable but sometimes gets treated like a noble" life - just growing up in the castle would be enough for the poor children to think he was putting on airs if he talked properly, while the nobility wouldn't accept him because he was some maid's bastard child.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Wasn't Rowan dead by the time of "The Calling" making it impossible for Fiona to be Alistair's mother? The sole reason for Alistair to be raised by Eamon was to hide him from Rowan. And if you want to keep the bastard son of a king away from the influence of nobility and royal life, its not exactly the best choice to let his noble uncle raise him, now is it? Also, aren't Cailan and Alistair supposed to be roughly the same age?

[LadyDamodred]

Cailain is about 25, Alistair is about 21. Both ages are from David Gaider.



And why does Rowan being dead mean it's impossible for Alistair to be Fiona's? And do you really want a bastard prince raised where you have no control over him?

[Serissia]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Wasn't Rowan dead by the time of "The Calling" making it impossible for Fiona to be Alistair's mother? The sole reason for Alistair to be raised by Eamon was to hide him from Rowan. And if you want to keep the bastard son of a king away from the influence of nobility and royal life, its not exactly the best choice to let his noble uncle raise him, now is it? Also, aren't Cailan and Alistair supposed to be roughly the same age?

Fiona asked Maric to assure that their son would be raised outside of the Court.  Fiona didn't want their son to end up alone and bitter like Maric (though his mood vastly improves after meeting Fiona and the events in TC).  Fiona had conflicted opinions when it came to Maric being King.  Fiona also didn't want their son to have to deal with the prejudice of being half elf, she wanted him raised as a normal human child.

As for if people knew of Alistair prior to the Landsmeet, I still think that at least some of the nobility did.  If you ask Alistair if Loghain knows when he admits to you he's Maric's bastard he says yes.  Eamon, Teagan, Loghain, Anora, Cailan and Duncan it seems knew at the very least. 

Modifié par Serissia, 20 avril 2010 - 03:09 .

[BeautyoftheBeast]

Sandtigress wrote...

Serissia wrote...

It's possible that Loghain didn't find out about the child until he was in Eamon's care. It's a fact that at some point while Alistair was in Eamon's care that a majority of the nobility became aware that Maric had a bastard son.

Actually, it doesn't seem to have happened until some time after Ostagar, and I'd venture its not until Eamon calls the Landsmeet, and then rumors start as to why Eamon is calling one and what card he has up his sleeve to use against Anora and Loghain.

Alistair says that only Duncan knew amongst the Grey Wardens, and in that conversation it just feels like its still a pretty well-kept secret.  No one mentions it amongst the rumor mongers during the game, Loghain is only hunting for you and not the potential heir to the throne, which to me would have been the smart thing had he considered Eamon  using Alistair to make a bid for the throne.  He certainly doesn't seem to have any compunctions against killing Alistair at the Landsmeet, so I don't think residual loyalty to Maric held him back beforehand.

I think prior to Ostagar, only Cailan (and through him Anora) knew about Alistair, in addition to Duncan, Eamon/Teagan/maybe Isolde.

I don't think Isolde knew. Mostly because Alistair says in-game that Isolde thought he could possibly be Eamon's kid, which of course turns out not to be true.

The whole Eamon thing grates my nerves, mostly due to the fact that he seems so intent on keeping the Theirin line on the throne, but only AFTER Cailan is dead does he give two ****s about Alistair. I think it mostly comes from him being Rowan's younger brother, but my God. Way to change up your views when it suits you.

I also think Alistair finding out about Fiona would be detrimental. I mean, finding out your entire childhood and family line was a big fat lie to cover up the fact that Maric and Fiona had a baby would be psychologically traumatizing. With Alistair and his upbringing, I think it would seriously ****** him off, if not hurt him any more than the way he was raised to begin with. Since he says that his only companions for a long time were dogs, it would be so upsetting to find that your entire upbringing was a lie and could have potentially been avoided. It's sort of sad.

[Sandtigress]

Well, I say maybe Isolde because she might have found out afterwards, when Alistair was in the Chantry. There's no evidence one way or another, but if Teagan knows, I don't see why Isolde might not have been told later.



I actually think it would do Alistair a world of good to know - to know that his parents wanted him, even if they couldn't raise him themselves, and that he was conceived in love and not as part of a careless night. He'll mention that he was the product of a "star-struck maid and an indiscreet man" in one of his banters with Leliana, and he sounds very bitter about it to me.

[Tinnic]

As many people have said, the Loghain we see in DAO is not the Loghain of "The Stolen Throne". In "The Calling" Maric comments how Loghain is changing and not for the better and how he feels helpless to stop his friend from becoming cold or something like that. So "The Stolen Throne" Loghain might not have sold elves to Trevinta but... then again he might have. I mean "The Stolen Throne" Loghain was ready to sell Maric to save his outlaw band but was stopped by his father, who was willing to die to keep Maric alive.



All in all, I don't think Loghain has anything against elves and doesn't think of them as subhuman. He made the Night Elves because elves see better in the dark. So Loghain is all about judging people by their ability. But with Loghain the ends justify the means and, like Alistair said, the problem with Loghain and Anora is that they believe they are the only ones who can read that end and everybody better get out of their way.



It's a form of hubris and Loghain didn't always have that hubris but years of power and with other people relying on him, thus reinforcing his belief that he is all that stood between Orlais and Feralden didn't help matters either.



Getting back on topic, Loghain had a vested interest in ensuring that Cailan's right to rule was never challenged. Remembering that in Feralden the order of birth does not ensure succession. If people thought Alistair was more capable, then Alistair could have been chosen over Cailan. Loghain was the one who arranged for Cailan and Anora to be married. Which given what happened with Rowan seemed odd. You would think that he would give his daughter the option to marry the man she loved and respected. Instead he made her queen. Thus ensuring that his family remained the true power behind the throne.



Honestly speaking, I can't help but wondering if Cailan would have been a more mature and better king if he was allowed some true power and not subverted at every turn by Loghain and Anora. I.e. he never grew into his power because he never got the chance to and so continued to be the "carefree prince" because he never really had to shoulder the burden of kingship. I mean, it did seem to be me that Cailan was trying to break free of the hold of Loghain and Anora, which was one of many reasons that Loghain did not like Cailan.