146 réponses à ce sujet

[sleepingbelow]

LadyDamodred wrote...
Hey, I will not deny anyone a secret, or not so secret, love for Nickleback. 

I have a secret love of Tom Jones.  Listen to "If I Only Knew."  Makes you want to go office chair surfing through a cubicle farm.

[Remy LeBeau]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...
As for Jory... He was brave enough with a foe he could face and fight. Like others have siad, it's this unknown thing that unnerves him. There is no way to fight it or give youself an edge in the battle against it. You will either die or you will live. He can't handle that fear and uncertainly and he does something stupid.

It's more than just uncertainty. He doesn't want to die this way, why?
Because "there is no glory in this".

When he said that sentence, any prievous sympathy I might have had for Jory is swept away.

I with you on this Phoenix.

[keesio74]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Duncan needed a recruit. If Duncan didn't leave Highever with a recruit it would have been time wasted, time he could have spent elsewhere finding a recruit. I understand him completely. I'm not saying what he did was all fine and dandy, but I understand him, and would probably have done the same in his place.

True. He is pragmatic. Like Morrigan or Velanna who disapproves of all my wasted time and resources to help others with no clear gain. I understood those two, and I understand Duncan now

[Lantrov]

Duncan is more than a man or a Grey Warden, he's also a symbol. He is a symbol of what it means to be a real, true Grey Warden.

[Serissia]

Duncan never wanted to be a Grey Warden. He turned down Genevieve initial offer to join the Wardens. Genevieve had to conscript him before his execution. He felt somewhat in debt to Genevieve after that. That's why Duncan believed in Genevieve's vision and joined with her on her Deep Roads excursion.

Duncan was witness to the corruption of his Commander (and friend) as well as his fellow Wardens. While trudging through the Deep Roads on what began to seem like an insane quest he was forced to watch his fellow Wardens change physically and mentally without knowing why. Only Duncan, Maric and Fiona survived the endeavor.

The he was subsequently given a position of importance within the Wardens at a very young age (much like our own PCs in Awakening). Fiona accompanied him back to Ferelden and he watched his best friends have to give up not only their love for each other but their child. Fiona was then called back to Weisshaupt Fortress so, the Wardens could monitor her condition.

...it's hardly like Duncan has had an easy life. He might come off as cruel to some but he does what is necessary, as all Wardens must do.

Modifié par Serissia, 20 avril 2010 - 01:52 .

[MOTpoetryION]

ya i didnt like that either thats why i found a way just to go with him but also to save daveth and jory and skip the whole joining all together. and i found a way i wont tell you its already in a post of mine just use the words "it is possible" in the search box and you will find the thread. so there duncan thats what you get and i hope you and that beard die lmao. Nobody forces me to do anything : )

And also the guy he came for is still alive, he is guarding the dam door. But hell no lets just take the possible last person that can carry on the family blood line instead. NOT

Modifié par MOTpoetryION, 20 avril 2010 - 02:16 .

[Suzene]

dream_operator23 wrote...

Funny that so many people hate Duncan as a Dalish. I never blamed Duncan for what happened to Tamlen. The way the story plays out, Duncan finds you alone outside of the cave and Tamlen is no where to be found. I always figured that Tamlen unthinkingly wandered off in a different direction. It's not as though Duncan saves you because he thinks you would make a great Grey Warden. When he first finds you in the forest he knows nothing about you and is just bringing you back to your people because it is the right thing to do. It's not until AFTER you recover and kill hordes of Darkspawn to make it back to the cave that Duncan realizes that you would make a good Grey Warden.

What happened to Tamlen wasn't Duncan's fault. The weasel-worded way he tries to get your character to believe that he's dead, however, was what earned him so much scorn once the truth came out. I actually find Duncan keeping the character ignorant while ensuring that he himself might have deniability at a later date to be more despicable than outright lying.

[Xandurpein]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...
As for Jory... He was brave enough with a foe he could face and fight. Like others have siad, it's this unknown thing that unnerves him. There is no way to fight it or give youself an edge in the battle against it. You will either die or you will live. He can't handle that fear and uncertainly and he does something stupid.

It's more than just uncertainty. He doesn't want to die this way, why?
Because "there is no glory in this".

When he said that sentence, any prievous sympathy I might have had for Jory is swept away.

I have no real sympathy for Ser Jory, but I still think Duncan is a jerk for killing him. And it seriously doesn't matter that Jory drew first, Ser Jory just wanted out. If everyone had backed away, Jory would just have bolted, or Duncan could have just disarmed him if he really wanted.

[Estelindis]

It's interesting that you should compare Duncan's actions in the HN origin story to the CE origin story...  Honestly, I thought he was more of a jerk to the City Elf.  Though I do agree that it was somewhat jerkish to only take the HN if you agree to be a Warden, in the City Elf origin he stands by when a female PC gets kidnapped.  He is right there and he does *nothing*.  Compare this to the fact that he fights for the Couslands when they're under attack.  "Neutrality," eh?

[Raiil]

I don't think it's so much that he's fighting for the Couslands as he's fighting for his life. Do you think Howe was going to let Duncan- a man obviously favoured by the King and a commander of an elite fighting force- simply flounce back to Cailan when he could obviously do so much damage? Something tells me he was under as much threat of being murdered as Bryce, Eleanor and the PC Cousland.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xandurpein wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...
As for Jory... He was brave enough with a foe he could face and fight. Like others have siad, it's this unknown thing that unnerves him. There is no way to fight it or give youself an edge in the battle against it. You will either die or you will live. He can't handle that fear and uncertainly and he does something stupid.

It's more than just uncertainty. He doesn't want to die this way, why?
Because "there is no glory in this".

When he said that sentence, any prievous sympathy I might have had for Jory is swept away.

I have no real sympathy for Ser Jory, but I still think Duncan is a jerk for killing him. And it seriously doesn't matter that Jory drew first, Ser Jory just wanted out. If everyone had backed away, Jory would just have bolted, or Duncan could have just disarmed him if he really wanted.

He has already been warned that there is no turning back. What Jory was doing is desertion and insubordination and he had to be punished. That, in addition to the necessity of preserving the secrecy of the ritual (which apparently will be known by almost everybody later on eeh ).

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 avril 2010 - 03:50 .

[LadyDamodred]

Estelindis wrote...

It's interesting that you should compare Duncan's actions in the HN origin story to the CE origin story...  Honestly, I thought he was more of a jerk to the City Elf.  Though I do agree that it was somewhat jerkish to only take the HN if you agree to be a Warden, in the City Elf origin he stands by when a female PC gets kidnapped.  He is right there and he does *nothing*.  Compare this to the fact that he fights for the Couslands when they're under attack.  "Neutrality," eh?

I think he was also fighting for his life.  Howe couldn't let Duncan make it back to Ostagar alive.  And it is pure politics to try and save the second highest noble in the land instead of a random city elf in an Alienage.  Harsh, but if he had gone back to Ostagar and said 'Gee, King Cailan, the Couslands are all dead and I just sort of took off without doing anything.' the standing of Grey Wardens in Ferelden would have taken a sharp dive.  It seems cruel, but it makes sense.

[shedevil3001]

personaly i dont see anything wrong with what duncan did in any of the origins, yes my dalish elf did hate him and in 1 play through my hfn did too, but duncan knows that all of thedas could be destroyed if the blight is not dealt with, and he needs wardens, at least he helps you in all origins even though he doesnt have to i'm sure if we died he would of found someone else just as easily, but instead he really wants our warden so we should be honoured he thinks we're worth it

[Herr Uhl]

LadyDamodred wrote...

Estelindis wrote...

It's interesting that you should compare Duncan's actions in the HN origin story to the CE origin story...  Honestly, I thought he was more of a jerk to the City Elf.  Though I do agree that it was somewhat jerkish to only take the HN if you agree to be a Warden, in the City Elf origin he stands by when a female PC gets kidnapped.  He is right there and he does *nothing*.  Compare this to the fact that he fights for the Couslands when they're under attack.  "Neutrality," eh?

I think he was also fighting for his life.  Howe couldn't let Duncan make it back to Ostagar alive.  And it is pure politics to try and save the second highest noble in the land instead of a random city elf in an Alienage.  Harsh, but if he had gone back to Ostagar and said 'Gee, King Cailan, the Couslands are all dead and I just sort of took off without doing anything.' the standing of Grey Wardens in Ferelden would have taken a sharp dive.  It seems cruel, but it makes sense.

I think this pretty much is all that is needed to explain Duncan fighting for the Couslands, not the politics deal.

In the City Elf, he would be the aggressor, as compared to HN where it's self defense.

[Estelindis]

Valentia X wrote...
I don't think it's so much that he's fighting for the Couslands as he's fighting for his life.

I concede the fairness of this point.  At the same time, it's unclear exactly how much he was just fighting to stay alive himself, and how much he was fighting to help Bryce.  (Not that there's anything in the least bit wrong with helping the Couslands, in my opinion.  I just think it makes Duncan look like a hypocrite by comparison to his actions in the Alienage.  He claims he can't help intervene in the Alienage because he has to stay neutral.  When it comes to a family that has power, though, that neutrality goes out the window.)

LadyDamodred wrote...
it is pure politics to try and save the
second highest noble in the land instead of a random city elf in an
Alienage. 

Precisely.  This is why is annoys me whenever the game tries to portray Duncan as some kind of saintly figure.  The text at his fire in Return to Ostagar made me want to throw up.

There were many good things about him, but he was ultimately a practical man who saw his duty to destroy the darkspawn as more important than anything else.  This means that, first and foremost, your PC is a tool to him.  He will help you more or less as it suits him.  Once we're past that initial factor, he will try to help you personally as much as he can.  But if helping you would end up having a negative effect on his ability to fight the darkspawn, he'll leave you to the crows.  It's just the way he sees his duty.

Herr Uhl wrote...
In the City Elf, he would be the aggressor,
as compared to HN where it's self defense.

"Aggressor" wouldn't be the first word that comes into my mind for someone who defends the innocent, the poor, and the powerless.

Modifié par Estelindis, 21 avril 2010 - 04:10 .

[Jamie7791]

Something I don't quite understand. . .



The Joining is supposedly a big secret and no one is supposed to know that it's possible to die during it.



How did Anora know that the Joining could be fatal?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Estelindis wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
In the City Elf, he would be the aggressor,
as compared to HN where it's self defense.

"Aggressor" wouldn't be the first word that comes into my mind for someone who defends the innocent, the poor, and the powerless.

From the perspective of the nobility, it is.

[Herr Uhl]

Estelindis wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
In the City Elf, he would be the aggressor, as compared to HN where it's self defense.

"Aggressor" wouldn't be the first word that comes into my mind for someone who defends the innocent, the poor, and the powerless.

Grey Wardens fight darkspawn, not nobles. If he would (personally) interfere in the CE origin, he would take the initiative to change things that his order should not meddle in, thus being the aggressor.

The GW didn't fight the Qunari when they attacked, why would they suddenly start fighting corrupt nobles?

[Jamie7791]

Estelindis wrote...

Valentia X wrote...
I don't think it's so much that he's fighting for the Couslands as he's fighting for his life.

I concede the fairness of this point.  At the same time, it's unclear exactly how much he was just fighting to stay alive himself, and how much he was fighting to help Bryce.  (Not that there's anything in the least bit wrong with helping the Couslands, in my opinion.  I just think it makes Duncan look like a hypocrite by comparison to his actions in the Alienage.  He claims he can't help intervene in the Alienage because he has to stay neutral.  When it comes to a family that has power, though, that neutrality goes out the window.)

LadyDamodred wrote...
it is pure politics to try and save the
second highest noble in the land instead of a random city elf in an
Alienage. 

Precisely.  This is why is annoys me whenever the game tries to portray Duncan as some kind of saintly figure.  The text at his fire in Return to Ostagar made me want to throw up.

There were many good things about him, but he was ultimately a practical man who saw his duty to destroy the darkspawn as more important than anything else.  This means that, first and foremost, your PC is a tool to him.  He will help you more or less as it suits him.  Once we're past that initial factor, he will try to help you personally as much as he can.  But if helping you would end up having a negative effect on his ability to fight the darkspawn, he'll leave you to the crows.  It's just the way he sees his duty.

Herr Uhl wrote...
In the City Elf, he would be the aggressor,
as compared to HN where it's self defense.

"Aggressor" wouldn't be the first word that comes into my mind for someone who defends the innocent, the poor, and the powerless.

I agree that Duncan was defending himself during the HN Origin.  Howe was killing everyone and everything.  He had to take action in that scenario.

Purely speculation -- but I'm quite sure that during the CE Origin, if Vaughn had attacked/threatened Duncan in such a way that Duncan was threatened (i.e. attacking Duncan outright, closing off the alienage while Duncan was inside), Duncan would have acted.  It would no longer be a neutrality issue - he would be defending himself.

[Estelindis]

Honestly, I see where you're all coming from on the neutrality / self-defence issue. It makes perfect sense. I just don't agree that it's right from a moral perspective. *That's* my peeve.



Of course, one might ask: what right does Duncan have to endanger the Wardens' neutrality for the sake of some city elves? What he stands to lose is far greater than what he stands to gain. But utilitarianism is so *cold* and *hard*. I'm not sure that a humanity (including dwarves and elves and qunari here) that followed it to the letter *should* be saved from the darkspawn. If we just destroy our own spirit while we're so focused on the darkspawn, what's the point?



Sorry this is so impassioned - maybe a bit over-the-top. But I've gone back-and-forth on Duncan a few times, and this is where I am at the moment regarding his motives and conduct.

[Herr Uhl]

Estelindis wrote...

Of course, one might ask: what right does Duncan have to endanger the Wardens' neutrality for the sake of some city elves? What he stands to lose is far greater than what he stands to gain. But utilitarianism is so *cold* and *hard*. I'm not sure that a humanity (including dwarves and elves and qunari here) that followed it to the letter *should* be saved from the darkspawn. If we just destroy our own spirit while we're so focused on the darkspawn, what's the point?

It is the GW that do that, so I don't see why all of humanity/dwarfdom/elvenhood/Qunarity should be judged. Would Duncan fighting corrupt nobles make humanity any more worth saving? I fail to see where you come from here.

Edit: Or do you propose that we should get rid of the GW, since they can't afford to have countries against them?

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 21 avril 2010 - 04:40 .

[LadyDamodred]

Estelindis wrote...

Honestly, I see where you're all coming from on the neutrality / self-defence issue. It makes perfect sense. I just don't agree that it's right from a moral perspective. *That's* my peeve.

Of course, one might ask: what right does Duncan have to endanger the Wardens' neutrality for the sake of some city elves? What he stands to lose is far greater than what he stands to gain. But utilitarianism is so *cold* and *hard*. I'm not sure that a humanity (including dwarves and elves and qunari here) that followed it to the letter *should* be saved from the darkspawn. If we just destroy our own spirit while we're so focused on the darkspawn, what's the point?

Sorry this is so impassioned - maybe a bit over-the-top. But I've gone back-and-forth on Duncan a few times, and this is where I am at the moment regarding his motives and conduct.

Look at it this way, Grey Wardens stand apart from humanity.  By taking the Joining and accepting the taint, they remove themselves from their fellow man.  Their purpose becomes to stand against the Blight and save humanity, but not to be a part of it.  Like Riordan says, Duncan is a hard man, but leaves himself a soft spot for his recruits.  Grey Wardens cannot afford to be soft.

"In peace, vigilance.  In war, victory.  In death, sacrifice."  Grey Wardens are always fighting the darkspawn.  Always.  Whether in actual battle or in making sure they will be there when a Blight comes.  They can never relax, never allow themselves to let down their guard.  They will burn villages to keep their enemy from using them.  Their dedication to their cause must remain their primary objective, no matter what.  If that means you must let injustices pass and innocents suffer, so be it.  That is not their battle, and fighting it will only weaken them.

[Serissia]

Estelindis wrote...

It's interesting that you should compare Duncan's actions in the HN origin story to the CE origin story...  Honestly, I thought he was more of a jerk to the City Elf.  Though I do agree that it was somewhat jerkish to only take the HN if you agree to be a Warden, in the City Elf origin he stands by when a female PC gets kidnapped.  He is right there and he does *nothing*.  Compare this to the fact that he fights for the Couslands when they're under attack.  "Neutrality," eh?

Howe had every intention of killing Duncan too.  He could hardly ignore the fact that a Grey Warden was present, if he was to let Duncan go he would of been a liability.  Duncan's fighting wasn't selfless, it was self preservation.  The way that it's worded it also sounds like Duncan and Teyrn Bryce might of been up talking together when Howe lunched his attack.

There was nothing that Duncan could do for the CEF.  If he had struck at Vaughan he would of ricked animosity with Ferelden's nobility.  Also, with Cailan and Loghain out of the captial and Vaughan the presiding lord it would of been possible that Duncan could of even end up jailed.  He couldn't allow that to happen, he has a Blight to contend to. 

Duncan is a man running out of time, his own Calling isn't far off and the Blight must be stopped.  He does what he must as all Wardens do.

[sylvanaerie]

In a way it could also be seen that Duncan is testing the waters with each of the PCs. Seeing how they might do under pressure.



CE does what she/he must to protect/save her/his family.

DN has to brave the deep roads and darkspawn to even find Duncan

DC survives the proving and escapes imprisonment

HN survives to make it to the only escape left in the castle.

DE actually survives the taint but because of how he/she got tainted must take the joining to negate the effects of shriekdom (Does anyone else find these creatures THE most annoying breed of darkspawn ever. Its like battling tainted versions of Isolde).

Mage...well that origin has two different ways to play out but Duncan finds an excuse to make either version work (giving everything for a friend in need/dedication to duty).



In some he is much less helpful than in others obviously but he is only allowed to do so much before he compromises the GW nuetrality.

[Estelindis]

Herr Uhl wrote...
It is the GW that do that, so I don't see why all of humanity/dwarfdom/elvenhood/Qunarity should be judged. Would Duncan fighting corrupt nobles make humanity any more worth saving? I fail to see where you come from here.

It's not that something Duncan does (or doesn't do) can make everyone else worth saving or not saving.  That's obviously absurd.  I think that a society in which everyone acted that way would not be worth saving.  Hence the problem with acting that way in order to save society.  It's kinda counter-purpose.

I may be completely wrong about this.  I'm not unwilling to examine whatever alternatives people present.