146 réponses à ce sujet

[Estelindis]

LadyDamodred wrote...
Look at it this way, Grey Wardens stand apart from humanity.  By taking the Joining and accepting the taint, they remove themselves from their fellow man.

It's clear that this is part of Duncan's justification - and the Wardens' justification in general.  I simply don't buy it.  It you put yourself outside of humanity, then you're also putting yourself outside of all the good that makes humanity worth saving.  It's inherently problematic.

It kinda reminds me of the King of Shadows (the main villain from NWN2).  Once you set yourself apart from a people and become willing to do anything to save them... it actually impairs your ability to help them...  I mean, it did in that situation.  I found the whole thing quite telling.

sylvanaerie wrote...
In a way it could also be seen that
Duncan is testing the waters with each of the PCs. Seeing how they
might do under pressure.
 

I have also wondered if this is
the case.

Then I decided that leaving a number of young women to
be kidnapped and raped is so far from being an ethically acceptable
test that it fails forever.

I mean, such a test is not just about how willing you are - it's also about how *able* you are.  Now, ability is certainly important when it comes to eligibility for the Wardens.  But failing to meet the ability-threshold to beat Vaughan and a hell of a lot of city guards does not mean that one deserves to be raped.  I mean, that's *horrendous.*  And Duncan, as an armed and experienced human warrior of some rank, really is the only one at the wedding who has a chance of making a difference to prevent that.

Then you get to another fact - one I only discovered via the toolset, since my PC always tool sole responsibility for the deaths in the palace in-game - that if no one confesses when the city guards arrive and Elva sells you out, Duncan takes the PC but leaves Soris.  That's a whole 'nother can of worms...  Still weighing my thoughts on that one.

Modifié par Estelindis, 21 avril 2010 - 04:49 .

[Herr Uhl]

Estelindis wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
It is the GW that do that, so I don't see why all of humanity/dwarfdom/elvenhood/Qunarity should be judged. Would Duncan fighting corrupt nobles make humanity any more worth saving? I fail to see where you come from here.

It's not that something Duncan does (or doesn't do) can make everyone else worth saving or not saving.  That's obviously absurd.  I think that a society in which everyone acted that way would not be worth saving.  Hence the problem with acting that way in order to save society.  It's kinda counter-purpose.

I may be completely wrong about this.  I'm not unwilling to examine whatever alternatives people present.

Then, the ones at fault is the countries that would not grant the GW the liberties that they would need without having them being completely neutral, correct?

Edit: And this chain of reasoning ultimately boils down to individuals being individuals and not drones, something that also seems to be "worth saving". So, unless it's done the Qunari way, them's the breaks.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 21 avril 2010 - 04:55 .

[LadyDamodred]

Estelindis wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
It is the GW that do that, so I don't see why all of humanity/dwarfdom/elvenhood/Qunarity should be judged. Would Duncan fighting corrupt nobles make humanity any more worth saving? I fail to see where you come from here.

It's not that something Duncan does (or doesn't do) can make everyone else worth saving or not saving.  That's obviously absurd.  I think that a society in which everyone acted that way would not be worth saving.  Hence the problem with acting that way in order to save society.  It's kinda counter-purpose.

I may be completely wrong about this.  I'm not unwilling to examine whatever alternatives people present.

Like I said, the Grey Wardens are not part of society.  I take more issue with the fact that noble wander around and rape and kill people willy-nilly and no one who can do a damn thing to change it does so.

[Estelindis]

LadyDamodred wrote...
Like I said, the Grey Wardens are not part of society.  I take more issue with the fact that noble wander around and rape and kill people willy-nilly and no one who can do a damn thing to change it does so.

Indeed, but this is a thread about Duncan.  ;-)

Were one to look at where the blame really lies (apart from, obviously, Vaughan), we might ask how Cailan and Anora seemingly knew and/or did nothing about such an awful situation in the very city where both of them lived.

Herr Uhl wrote...
Then, the ones at fault is the countries
that would not grant the GW the liberties that they would need without
having them being completely neutral, correct?

Except that, as the case of Sophia Dryden showed - and, it's implied, the case of the Anderfuls *currently* shows - there's another set of perils associated with a lack of Warden neutrality.

Sometimes, I think that the motto of DA:O is "people are jerks."   

Modifié par Estelindis, 21 avril 2010 - 04:53 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Estelindis wrote...

Of course, one might ask: what right does Duncan have to endanger the Wardens' neutrality for the sake of some city elves? What he stands to lose is far greater than what he stands to gain. But utilitarianism is so *cold* and *hard*. I'm not sure that a humanity (including dwarves and elves and qunari here) that followed it to the letter *should* be saved from the darkspawn. If we just destroy our own spirit while we're so focused on the darkspawn, what's the point?

*chuckles* That's cute.

[sylvanaerie]

LadyDamodred wrote...

Estelindis wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
It is the GW that do that, so I don't see why all of humanity/dwarfdom/elvenhood/Qunarity should be judged. Would Duncan fighting corrupt nobles make humanity any more worth saving? I fail to see where you come from here.

It's not that something Duncan does (or doesn't do) can make everyone else worth saving or not saving.  That's obviously absurd.  I think that a society in which everyone acted that way would not be worth saving.  Hence the problem with acting that way in order to save society.  It's kinda counter-purpose.

I may be completely wrong about this.  I'm not unwilling to examine whatever alternatives people present.

Like I said, the Grey Wardens are not part of society.  I take more issue with the fact that noble wander around and rape and kill people willy-nilly and no one who can do a damn thing to change it does so.

Most likely Urien (if he knew and I think he probably did) kept that dirty little secret a secret.  Its not the first time Vaughan has done it either.  But thankfully, because of the PC its the last.

[Estelindis]

sylvanaerie wrote...
Most likely Urien (if he knew and I think he probably did) kept that dirty little secret a secret.  Its not the first time Vaughan has done it either.  But thankfully, because of the PC its the last.

True.  It's heavily implied that Urien protected his son from suffering any consequences of his evil actions.

Is Vaughan basically a grown-up version of Joffrey from A Song of Ice and Fire?

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
*chuckles* That's cute.

Yes,
Mr-Loghain-and-Illusive-Man...  Yes it is.  [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/sideways.png[/smilie]

Gotta go for the time being, but it was nice debating with you all. 

Modifié par Estelindis, 21 avril 2010 - 04:56 .

[LadyDamodred]

Estelindis wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...
Like I said, the Grey Wardens are not part of society.  I take more issue with the fact that noble wander around and rape and kill people willy-nilly and no one who can do a damn thing to change it does so.

Indeed, but this is a thread about Duncan.  ;-)

Were one to look at where the blame really lies (apart from, obviously, Vaughan), we might ask how Cailan and Anora seemingly knew and/or did nothing about such an awful situation in the very city where both of them lived.

Yes...  It is about Duncan.  You are taking him to task for something he really has no control over, not if he is to do his job.  You're obviously giving this a lot of thought, and I'm not saying you are wrong, just that this thinking cannot really be applied to Grey Wardens.

As for the others, Cailan was pretty ignorant about what was going on.  The toolset makes you *facepalm* when you see how clueless he really is.  And Anora just doesn't care, hence me never leaving her on the throne.  B*itch.

[Serissia]

Estelindis wrote...
It's clear that this is part of Duncan's justification - and the Wardens' justification in general.  I simply don't buy it.  It you put yourself outside of humanity, then you're also putting yourself outside of all the good that makes humanity worth saving.  It's inherently problematic.

This is reflected in TC in Bregan's actions; part of him resented what he had become to protect humanity.  The sacrifices that people have to make to become Wardens do sometimes come back to haunt them.  The Wardens are still people and thus not infallible.  Though most seem to try to do their best to protect humanity from the darkspawn. 

[Xandurpein]

sylvanaerie wrote...

In a way it could also be seen that Duncan is testing the waters with each of the PCs. Seeing how they might do under pressure. 

If that is true, then he did a spectacularily bad job with Ser Jory...

[sylvanaerie]

Xandurpein wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

In a way it could also be seen that Duncan is testing the waters with each of the PCs. Seeing how they might do under pressure. 

If that is true, then he did a spectacularily bad job with Ser Jory...

LOL oh yea Ser Jory was one of those WTF moments the instant I met him in Ostagar.  However Duncan was desperate for recruits, he's living on borrowed time at this point and trying to stop the Blight. 

However considering the PC DID stop the Blight, I think he chose rather well in that individual.

[Xandurpein]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

In a way it could also be seen that Duncan is testing the waters with each of the PCs. Seeing how they might do under pressure. 

If that is true, then he did a spectacularily bad job with Ser Jory...

LOL oh yea Ser Jory was one of those WTF moments the instant I met him in Ostagar.  However Duncan was desperate for recruits, he's living on borrowed time at this point and trying to stop the Blight. 

However considering the PC DID stop the Blight, I think he chose rather well in that individual.

I still blame Duncan for Ser Jory, not necessarily for killing him as such, but if he knew he had to kill anyone who balked or freaked out, then really he should have seen Jory's reaction a mile away. And Alistair just thinks it's sad. I would like to think I would have had few chice words privatly with Duncan about Jory before the joining, if I had been in Alistair´s shoes at that point.

[Patriciachr34]

Duncan probably believed that Ser Jory would eventually rise to the occasion and become a good Grey Warden. He was given a chance to do so and succeeded. Why not allow someone else the same opportunity?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Patriciachr34 wrote...

Duncan probably believed that Ser Jory would eventually rise to the occasion and become a good Grey Warden. He was given a chance to do so and succeeded. Why not allow someone else the same opportunity?

Being a Warden is not an opportunity. It's a sacrifice.

I think Duncan was REALLY desperate. He made a good choice with Daveth, but a terrible choice with Jory. Eh, sh*t happens. 

[Patriciachr34]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Patriciachr34 wrote...

Duncan probably believed that Ser Jory would eventually rise to the occasion and become a good Grey Warden. He was given a chance to do so and succeeded. Why not allow someone else the same opportunity?

Being a Warden is not an opportunity. It's a sacrifice.

I think Duncan was REALLY desperate. He made a good choice with Daveth, but a terrible choice with Jory. Eh, sh*t happens. 

I think this is a matter of perspective.  I've always seen being a Grey Warden as an opportunity.  It is an opportunity to serve those around you and make a noticable difference in the world.  Yes, one sacrafices a great deal to become a Grey Warden, but that does nothing to diminish the opportunity it provides.

I still believe Duncan thought Ser Jory would rise to the occasion.  Nothing you said has changed my mind on this point.

[KnightofPhoenix]

It never was my intention to change your mind

[Raiil]

I'm going to say that I don't think the Grey Wardens are above or separate from society or humanity. They simply exist within a specific caste. In some ways, they're the biggest bunch of mercenaries you'll ever find- they don't care (at least theoretically) about your past, so long as you have the skill to fight darkspawn. The only difference is that they have a specific task- depending on your POV, to end the Blight, or to defend humanity from the Blight. How you take that is entirely on you. My main PC, my fem!mage, believes in the latter. Some believe in the former.



The Wardens are not moral arbiters, nor have they ever been assumed as such. There is a certain gloss a group acquires due to their dedication of saving humanity, but that is a reputation that comes from others, not one they themselves started. It can be argued until one is blue in the face whether or not the Wardens are upstanding citizens, but it is besides the point. They have a job, and they're going to take the people who are capable of getting that job done.

[Patriciachr34]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

It never was my intention to change your mind

Lol!  Fair Enough.

[Korva]

I don't think Duncan is a saint, but I like him anyway. He's quite human, for better or worse, but I think generally for better considering his duty. None of my gals felt a lasting animosity for him, though the human noble did give him the cold shoulder while she was still caught up in the worst shock.

That said, I don't really buy into "neutrality", both as a matter of principle (I enjoy playing "shining white knights" :innocent:) and because the game has many situations in which we can take sides and help people without a direct gain for the Wardens -- except maybe a reputation boost in the eyes of the people you aid. Granted, I don't think there's such an extreme situation as in the City elf origin (which I haven't played and never will so am going by hearsay) elsewhere in the game, and by "extreme" I mean risk versus gain from the perspective of an uninvolved person. Still, three out of my four characters -- human noble warrior (finished the game, made the ultimate sacrifice), human mage (unplayed), Dalish rogue (got till Lothering) -- would lapse into a white-hot rage of female solidarity in a situation like that were they in Duncan's shoes, and no mistake. Add elvish solidarity for the Dalish and outrage at the abuse of power from the human noble. Not sure about the noble dwarf warrior (unplayed). She's a callous one, but even she sees brutalizing the helpless as pathetic.

It's for the best that my canon character made the ultimate sacrifice. She's dead, but damn if it wasn't a death to be remembered! And by going out as a rather green Warden who never encountered a commander who tried to force a "Warden neutrality, can't help people, sorry" stance on her, she died with her determined idealism more or less intact. Had she survived, she'd tell that fictive commander to match her accomplishments before trying to tell her how to do her job.

Modifié par Korva, 22 avril 2010 - 08:44 .

[Tremere]

keesio74 wrote...

Urshakk wrote...

keesio74 wrote...

Well after playing twice as a city elf, I played a new origin today - Human Noble. I was kinda surprised and disappointed that Duncan offered to lead me to safety only if I joined the wardens. WTF? If I said no, he'd just leave me to die? I always liked Duncan when I was a city elf 'cause he saved my life by letting me join the wardens. But after this... I dunno. That was pretty low... basically putting the pressure on my dying father to let me join the wardens or else. Not cool.

Then it would be game over. You stay you die, you go you live, regardless of what Duncan has to say about it.

I know. I am just talking from a storyline standpoint. In this origin, Duncan is a bit of an ass.

I agree. My Human Noble didn't like him at all. Compelling my father on his deathbed to have me conscripted into an order I wanted no part of was cruelly pragmatic. On that note, he could have just as easily conscripted Ser Gilmore and left me to my fate. I disliked him even more after going through the Gauntlet and seeing the image of my father. I think Duncan had a thing for corrupting noble houses.

[Mike3207]

I felt he wasn't a particularly good-Warden Commander. I'm not sure how good he was at recruiting Wardens in Ferelden, and he took all the Wardens into battle there were. I admit there may have been a fair amount of pressure from Cailan to use all Wardens in battle at Ostagar. I also wonder if it was the First Warden's intent to sacrifice Ferelden, as it may been been his orders to not recruit more Wardens.

[tklivory]

My biggest complaint of Duncan as a Warden-Commander was his complete inability to reign in Cailan's exuberance. I mean, yeah, Cailan's king, but if the King of Fereldan is stupid enough to not follow the Grey Warden's advice because he thinks the Grey Wardens will keep him safe, then freakin' threaten to pull the Grey Wardens out until reinforcements arrive! Bam, a reason for Cailan to wait for help, despite losing the 'glory'. *grumble grumble* The guy's interesting to write, but yeah, too conscious of losing the Grey Warden's status in Fereldan to actually do what was best for the Grey Wardens in Fereldan.

@ Mike - hmmm, didn't think of any sekrit orders from the First Warden.  That would be... beyond doucehbaggery, to pu it mildly.  Is there any reason in literature outside the game to think that the First Warden would want Fereldan to fall?  I haven't heard of that before, and am curious.

Modifié par tklivory, 07 décembre 2011 - 06:41 .