144 réponses à ce sujet

[Kaiser Shepard]

inversevideo wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

The fact is the geth had a logical reason to follow Sovereign. 'He' was not a god in the typical sense. Sovereign was a very real being that could be interacted with and studied. Sovereign's existence PROVED that it was more advanced than the geth and that it could provide that same sophistication. Nothing mystical about it at all and no indoctrination necessary.

Unless, you beleive what 'Legion' had to say.
Which was that the reason the 'Heretics' worshipped the 'Old Machines' was due a math error, introduced into their most basic runtimes.

Since Geth are virtually immune to hacking, who would have the ability to introduce a math error in their subroutines?
A reaper? And that does sound a bit like indoctrination. Call it subversion of higher processing ability towards serving reapers.

The Heretics didn't join Sovereign because of a math error, Legion specifically explains this when Shepard asks that question. They just came to different conclusions. The virus in A House Divided is supposed to induce a math error on the opposing geth faction, which would force them to come to the same conclusion.

[Homey C-Dawg]

inversevideo wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

The fact is the geth had a logical reason to follow Sovereign. 'He' was not a god in the typical sense. Sovereign was a very real being that could be interacted with and studied. Sovereign's existence PROVED that it was more advanced than the geth and that it could provide that same sophistication. Nothing mystical about it at all and no indoctrination necessary.

Unless, you beleive what 'Legion' had to say.
Which was that the reason the 'Heretics' worshipped the 'Old Machines' was due a math error, introduced into their most basic runtimes.

Since Geth are virtually immune to hacking, who would have the ability to introduce a math error in their subroutines?
A reaper? And that does sound a bit like indoctrination. Call it subversion of higher processing ability towards serving reapers.

Well, just to chime in here, it was actually Shepard who made the "math error" remark. Legion's response was that it was hard to explain, and ends by saying (paraphrased) "our result is correct for us, their result is correct for them.

But I thought that conversation was regarding the virus the heretics were going to use against the geth, rather than the reason for the heretics joining the old machines. I seem to remember Legion saying that the heretics were talked into joining the reapers, not to mention I thought indoctrination only had an effect on organics?

From ME Wiki - "'Indoctrination' is the term used for the brainwashing effect the Reaper Sovereign has on organic beings."

[DuffyMJ]

DarthCyclopsRLZ wrote...

primero holodon wrote...

that may be true but the U.S. and Britain also got the job done; and which country still exists? U.S.S.R. or U.S.A.

It wasn't Americans of Brits that won WW2, lol.

They essentially flanked a crippled foe and rushed to Berlin to steal the Russians' thunder.

That'd be like the Council waltzing in at the very last minute, blowing up the last 3-4 Reapers and claiming they did exactly half of the job.

That's pretty disingenuous.  A lion's share of Soviet heavy munitions and equipment in the early stages of the war were manufactured in the United States.

The Soviets also did absolutely nothing to fight the rest of the Axis, never touched Italy, and only fought Japan when they truly flanked a "crippled" foe after Okinawa... Saipan... Guadalcanal... Iwo Jima... (should I go on???) it's pretty stupid to say Germany in 1944 was 'crippled',  on top of that.

The poster you responded to did not say they won World War Two, anyway. He said they ALSO got the job done along with the USSR, which is absolutely factual. 

[primero holodon]

UFOash wrote...

primero holodon wrote...

Archereon wrote...

Primero: On point 6, see World War II in Russia. Sure, 37 million people died, but the Russians got the job done, because despite the ineptitude of their leadership.

that may be true but the U.S. and Britain also got the job done; and which country still exists? U.S.S.R. or U.S.A.

That is really evading the point.
The fall of the USSR had nothing to do with WWII.
& the USSR gained more from WWII so you could say they came out better than the westerners.
Either way they finished the job, something the Brits & the US didn't do.

Really? first of all The USSR never droped Nukes to end the war, and they wouldn't have lasted  without the US and UK opening a second, third and fourth front in Italy weastern europe and North Africa.

Second of all The Soviets didn't get the job done, not really anyways, The main reason the germans were defeated was because the battle of Stalingrad happened to take place in the winter which happened to be harsh even by russian standards. the Soviets won due to a stroke of luck and a major tacticle error made by Hitler

third of all My point on the fall of the USSR was that it was caused in large part by their highly controlling government causing major resentment by the non-ruleing class

last of all the entire point was that creating a totalitarian police state ruled by humans does not unite a diverse group of alien species to fight the reapers but instead does precicely the opposite

[Gavinthelocust]

I am a paragon and I know that if I help enough people and get enough box tokens I will become super awesome spider christopher walken jesus. It is the reapers who are going to be royally screwed.

[Zulu_DFA]

Archereon wrote...

Has been that Paragons have actually been setting themselves up to get royally screwed.


Saving the Rachni?  All the Reapers have to do is send another "oily tone" through space and boom, Reapers have a Rachni army.

Sparing the Heretics?  It backfires and all geth besides legion and other isolated platforms become heretics.

Sparing the Council?  "Ah yes, Reapers."

Destroying the Collector Base?  You dumbarses!

Curing the Genophage?  RAAAAWR, KROGAN SMASH ALL PUNY ALIENZ!




Now that would suck so much for me, a dedicated paragon, but it would be kind of hilarious.

Ah, "Big Choices"...

Right you are, Archereon. Every Paragon choice is based on wishful thinking, and as such is worse then a crime - it's a mistake!

Seriously, if the "BIG CHOICES" really matter in the final outcome (victory against the Reapers) I'd expect the best combination to be split 50-50 between Paragon and Renegade. For example, abandoning the Council in ME1 is no big deal in terms of galactic government: one bunch of morons is replaced by another... But the ensuing arms race between the Humans and the Turians will yield more dreanoughts, and other craft to mount Heavy Thanix on... Thus Renegade (or neutral) choise is the right one. This will be compensated by TIM getting indoctrinated/mad while tinkering with the C-Base salvage. The saved Rachi get indoctrinated but the cured Krogans come to stomp them back to extincinction once again... Thus, full Paragon and full Renegade paths will actually turn out to be equally efficient (that is 50%)... But there again, only if the Choices have more than just cosmetic impact...

@ guy who said that the Soviets had inefficient government during WWII:
It takes inefficient government to take half the Europe and China as spoils of war, steal blueprints of the A-bomb from America, build first H-bomb, and send into orbit first Sputnik and Man. Wake up, Stalin may have been a russian Hitler, and a bad person, but he was a great statesman nonetheless.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 20 avril 2010 - 11:30 .

[Breakdown Boy]

When life gives Shepard lemons, he kills Reapers with them!



My Paragon Shep will kick ass no matter what! Why? He's Comannder Shepard! Duh!!



And Scyphozoa, I agree!!!!!!

[FlintlockJazz]

scyphozoa wrote...

 In my canon, Krogan Warlords will ride on the backs of Rachni Brood Warriors into battle against the Reapers. 

Led by the indominatable Minsc riding astride a no longer miniature Boo!

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Bah... to quote Shep when talking to Kalara Tomi on the Citadel (if let the council die)

"If you want a problem shot, ask a turian, If you want a problem talked, ask an asari, if you want another problem, ask a salarian. If you want a problem fixed, ask a human!"

We don't need no stinking alien races to defeat the Reapers. Nor do we need a bunch of alien-fearing councilmen.

HUMANITY FIRST! Shepard, Miranda, Jacob, Zaeed, Kasumi, TIM and the crew of the Normandy SR2 will show them all how it is done.

Yes, yes, I know all you Turians out there... us Humans are racists. Well I got another point to make on that....

"If it weren't for the Alliance fleet, this station would have fallen to
Sovereign, and you'd all be Reaper chow now. Your welcome. Enjoy
your drinks, ladies."

[Nu-Nu]

I think if we don't have Wrex, the cure will be a problem, they'll rather be wreaking havoc and will dismiss your reaper battle. Or there be too little of them without Wrex and they're the first to die in the battle.



I'm hoping paragon is the best ending otherwise they wouldn't have started the game on a neutral renegade if you haven't played previous games and forcing you to go back to make the paragon choices. I think for the big choices, the paragon will hopefully be the best, but for the small choices like letting that asari live in samara's recruiting mission or letting that bartender who poison you live is gonna bite you in the ass.

[Dean_the_Young]

I'll laugh if there's a paragon choice to spare the Reapers because they say they're really, really sorry.

[Nu-Nu]

Shandepared wrote...

Nu-Nu wrote...

I'm hoping paragon is the best ending otherwise they wouldn't have started the game on a neutral renegade if you haven't played previous games and forcing you to go back to make the paragon choices. I think for the big choices, the paragon will hopefully be the best, but for the small choices like letting that asari live in samara's recruiting mission or letting that bartender who poison you live is gonna bite you in the ass.

I'm hoping the story-telling won't be quite as cliched as that.

Well, curing (paragon) the krogan without wrex will probaly be a bad thing. I'm sure there will be consequences but I still hope that paragon is the best ending.  Paragon seems to be their keycard in getting people to play previous games, it worked for me, so that tells me that it has to mean something important.

[Sajuro]

DarthCyclopsRLZ wrote...

primero holodon wrote...

that may be true but the U.S. and Britain also got the job done; and which country still exists? U.S.S.R. or U.S.A.

It wasn't Americans of Brits that won WW2, lol.

They essentially flanked a crippled foe and rushed to Berlin to steal the Russians' thunder.

That'd be like the Council waltzing in at the very last minute, blowing up the last 3-4 Reapers and claiming they did exactly half of the job.

I'd give them the credit if the council managed to blow up three or four reapers on their own, maybe the Turian would just dismiss them out of existance.

to the OP: No good deed goes unpunished?

[Nu-Nu]

Shandepared wrote...

Nu-Nu wrote...

Well, curing (paragon) the krogan without wrex will probaly be a bad thing. I'm sure there will be consequences but I still hope that paragon is the best ending.  Paragon seems to be their keycard in getting people to play previous games, it worked for me, so that tells me that it has to mean something important.

I like the idea stated earlier that neither the full renegade or paragon path will result in the "best" ending. Of-course what constitutes the "best" ending is highly subjective. For me the best ending would be an ecomically, militarily, technologically, and politically dominant humanity taking control of the galaxy. The former Council races having had their homeworlds and colonies decimated by the Reapers.

/evil

Lol that'd be my worse ending, if paragon ends up like that I'd cry.  But I also have a renegon character that I'm making right now, so it'll be interesting to see her ending.  Maybe I'll try to do renegade one day but I just can't be that evil lol.

[Dean_the_Young]

Oh, it's pretty easy. You just have to care about people more than yourself.

"Are the beliefs of one person (me) more important than saving a greater number of people/preventing future threat to greater number of people?"

A Paragon says yes. A Renegade says no, and is insulted you asked the question.

(Not always, but for the big questions.)

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 20 avril 2010 - 01:19 .

[tonnactus]

Archereon wrote...


Destroying the Collector Base?  You dumbarses!

Reaper tech was alsways a trap.A lot of situations in the game showed you that.Dumbarses are people who really believe that humans would understand reaper tech better then the reapers theirself do it.(and find some weaknesses in that)

[Dean_the_Young]

All Reaper technology is bad. Except for the the Normandy's weapons, the Normandy's engines,, EDI, every gun in the game, shields, the Citadel, the Mass Relays, biotics, and everything known about and using element zero.

Remember folks, history shows that with pluck, cunning, and moral superiority, there's no need for anything close to technological parity between foes: after all, they already know how it works, so it must be ineffective against them.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 20 avril 2010 - 01:33 .

[Schroing]

Archereon wrote...

Has been that Paragons have actually been setting themselves up to get royally screwed.


Saving the Rachni?  All the Reapers have to do is send another "oily tone" through space and boom, Reapers have a Rachni army.

Sparing the Heretics?  It backfires and all geth besides legion and other isolated platforms become heretics.

Sparing the Council?  "Ah yes, Reapers."

Destroying the Collector Base?  You dumbarses!

Curing the Genophage?  RAAAAWR, KROGAN SMASH ALL PUNY ALIENZ!




Now that would suck so much for me, a dedicated paragon, but it would be kind of hilarious.

Has been that Renegades have actually been setting themselves up to get royally screwed.


Killing the Rachni? Congratulations, now the Reapers have one less wall to break down.

Killing the Heretics? The geth can't maintain themselves in the war without the additional numbers the heretics would have added, and are crushed by the Reapers.

Killing the Council? Now you get even -less- cooperation, in addition to "Ah, yes, Reapers."

Giving the Collector Base to the Illusive Man? You dumbarses!

Destroying the Genophage? RAAARRGGHH, KROGAN TOO SMALL IN NUMBER TO HELP IN ANY WAY WHATSOEVER!




Now that would suck for me, a dedicated Renegade, but it would be kind of hilarious.

[Schroing]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

All Reaper technology is bad. Except for the the Normandy's weapons, the Normandy's engines,, EDI, every gun in the game, shields, the Citadel, the Mass Relays, biotics, and everything known about and using element zero.

Were you paying attention? All of that was clearly stated to have been a trap by Virgil, set by the Reapers to guide the races to a technological future that they had set.

The message I'm seeing from Bioware here is that technology in general is bad. Observe how many problems have been caused in society by spacefaring, advanced weaponry, biotics, etc. Alienation, prosecution, xenophobia, AI going rogue pretty much whenever it gets the chance, regular massacres (humanity's -first- contact with alien technology led to the deaths of hundreds of soldiers, if not thousands, and there's been many more for every race since and before then). Observe that the Reapers only target civilizations when they've reached a certain point in their evolution. Observe that other civilizations, still planetbound, are typically left untouched.

Modifié par Schroing, 20 avril 2010 - 01:39 .

[ILIAS R]

i really don't get you people why we shouldn't keep the Collector's base technological advancement is always the way to achieve superiority against an enemy you can be cunning or super intelligent but there is no way to deal with a gun if another hand handling it f.e in ww2 the atom bomb was just a hoax what if axis got they're hands on it first.

[Bigdoser]

OP that is quite funney but I doubt that will happen.

[tonnactus]

Schroing wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

All Reaper technology is bad. Except for the the Normandy's weapons, the Normandy's engines,, EDI, every gun in the game, shields, the Citadel, the Mass Relays, biotics, and everything known about and using element zero.

Were you paying attention?

He obviously didnt.Sovereign told shepardt:"Your civilisation is based on the technology of the Mass Portals.Our technology."

Modifié par tonnactus, 20 avril 2010 - 01:50 .