144 réponses à ce sujet

[Schroing]

ILIAS R wrote...

i really don't get you people why we shouldn't keep the Collector's base technological advancement is always the way to achieve superiority against an enemy you can be cunning or super intelligent but there is no way to deal with a gun if another hand handling it f.e in ww2 the atom bomb was just a hoax what if axis got they're hands on it first.

Most importantly is who it's going to. Cerberus essentially is the Axis in your analogy; well, more of an Al-Qaeda or something. I don't know. The point is they're not someone who the atom bomb should be given to. It's kind of (well, extremely) stupid that Cerberus is the only option, but that's the way it is.

Slightly less importantly and more symbolic is the whole "build your own future" theme that they've started building up.

[Dean_the_Young]

Schroing wrote...

Were you paying attention? All of that was clearly stated to have been a trap by Virgil, set by the Reapers to guide the races to a technological future that they had set.

It's not a trap in the sense your thinking, in that it leads to a technological dead end. It's the Reapers way of being able to know exactly what their next targets are capable, by presenting a linear path of development. But it depends on the target being at that point of development: due to the actions of the Protheans, the galaxy has proceeded past the point where it's entirely susceptible, and the Reaper's path is fast becoming the tool of their own destruction. We have gone past the point where the Reapers could have effortlessly wiped us out. The galaxy was not supposed to defeat Sovereign and gain the first tangents of peer-level Reaper weapon technology, and it was never supposed to have the opportunity for gaining the Collector base,

Calling the Reaper plan a trap is a misleading metaphor, because a trap is usually an end. Rather, a better metaphor would be paving one road climbing a hill out of many, so that you can stop another vehicle at the point of your choosing far down the hill. Except that vehicle didn't stop where there was a trap (Sovereign) and is still climbing further and faster than you ever intended. Now the road you built to lead them into a trap is taking them right at you, and the trap has long since fallen behind. There would be no sense in driving back down the paved road and repeating the climb on the possible dirt tracks to either side, which is what ditching all Reaper-derived technology would be.

Technological parity doesn't mean that advances are useless. Any study of major wars will show that technological parity is pretty much the only counter besides extreme cannon fodder to being steamrolled by technological superiority, and even then cannon fodder doesn't always win out.

The message I'm seeing from Bioware here is that technology in general is bad. Observe how many problems have been caused in society by spacefaring, advanced weaponry, biotics, etc. Alienation, prosecution, xenophobia, AI going rogue pretty much whenever it gets the chance, regular massacres (humanity's -first- contact with alien technology led to the deaths of hundreds of soldiers, if not thousands, and there's been many more for every race since and before then). Observe that the Reapers only target civilizations when they've reached a certain point in their evolution. Observe that other civilizations, still planetbound, are typically left untouched.

None of those are caused by technology. All of those are examples of varying levels of social development, which is neither uniform or absolute. When the Krogans got off planet, they acted like barbarians, but when the humans got off the planet they acted like rational state actors and the Asari as very patient state actors. Technology in ME has been about enabling the character of those who use it.

[Nu-Nu]

ILIAS R wrote...

i really don't get you people why we shouldn't keep the Collector's base technological advancement is always the way to achieve superiority against an enemy you can be cunning or super intelligent but there is no way to deal with a gun if another hand handling it f.e in ww2 the atom bomb was just a hoax what if axis got they're hands on it first.

Keeping the base can either go 2 ways, I think.  There's a trap built into it and you're screwed.  There's no trap but cereberus becomes power made and kill all the other aliens and not just reaper.  Also, there's a chance he'll make himself or you the new human reaper's brain.

Modifié par Nu-Nu, 20 avril 2010 - 02:40 .

[Kenrae]

inversevideo wrote...
Unless, you beleive what 'Legion' had to say.
Which was that the reason the 'Heretics' worshipped the 'Old Machines' was due a math error, introduced into their most basic runtimes.

Uh? That was an explanation of how the virus works, not why the Heretics joined Nazara. In fact, Legion himself says that no one is wrong, and the explanation he gives is "we say 2 is less than 3, they say 1 is less than 2".

[Dean_the_Young]

tonnactus wrote...

Schroing wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

All Reaper technology is bad. Except for the the Normandy's weapons, the Normandy's engines,, EDI, every gun in the game, shields, the Citadel, the Mass Relays, biotics, and everything known about and using element zero.

Were you paying attention?

He obviously didnt.Sovereign told shepardt:"Your civilisation is based on the technology of the Mass Portals.Our technology."

Technology does not magically become unusable against you if you understand it. Guns did not suddenly become useless the moment a second power understood gunpowder, computer viruses did not die out even though everyone has computer engineers, and cruise missiles will kill you when they hit regardless of whether you understand them or not.

That the Reapers have Reaper technology does not mean they are immune to it. Even diamonds can be cut by diamonds.

[vigna]

Archereon wrote...

Has been that Paragons have actually been setting themselves up to get royally screwed.


Saving the Rachni?  All the Reapers have to do is send another "oily tone" through space and boom, Reapers have a Rachni army.

Sparing the Heretics?  It backfires and all geth besides legion and other isolated platforms become heretics.

Sparing the Council?  "Ah yes, Reapers."

Destroying the Collector Base?  You dumbarses!

Curing the Genophage?  RAAAAWR, KROGAN SMASH ALL PUNY ALIENZ!




Now that would suck so much for me, a dedicated paragon, but it would be kind of hilarious.

Shephard becoming like Saren, maybe?

[Kenrae]

Schroing wrote...
Most importantly is who it's going to. Cerberus essentially is the Axis in your analogy; well, more of an Al-Qaeda or something. I don't know. The point is they're not someone who the atom bomb should be given to. It's kind of (well, extremely) stupid that Cerberus is the only option, but that's the way it is.

Yeah, I even started a thread on it. Why couldn't I decide to keep the base but only if every species in the Citadel have access to it?

[ILIAS R]

Nu-Nu wrote...

ILIAS R wrote...

i really don't get you people why we shouldn't keep the Collector's base technological advancement is always the way to achieve superiority against an enemy you can be cunning or super intelligent but there is no way to deal with a gun if another hand handling it f.e in ww2 the atom bomb was just a hoax what if axis got they're hands on it first.

Keeping the base can either go 2 ways, I think.  There's a trap built into it and you're screwed.  There's no trap but cereberus becomes power made and kill all the other aliens and not just reaper.  Also, there's a chance he make himself or you the new human reaper's brain.

and that's a bad thing
i dont  know you're probably right but i wanted that damn base for my shepard  as a third option .

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]Schroing wrote...

[quote]ILIAS R wrote...

Most importantly is who it's going to. Cerberus essentially is the Axis in your analogy; well, more of an Al-Qaeda or something. I don't know. The point is they're not someone who the atom bomb should be given to. It's kind of (well, extremely) stupid that Cerberus is the only option, but that's the way it is.

Slightly less importantly and more symbolic is the whole "build your own future" theme that they've started building up.
[/quote]Cerberus is a xeno-nationalist group. The entire Council is based around xeno-nationalism. It's the reason each race has exactly one Ambassador.

Cerberus is not a genocidal group. The Council has performed/stood by and allowed genocide as a matter of policy. (Rachni, Quarians, Krogan, Turian mode of warfare that they tried to use against Humans).

Cerberus is the only option because they're the ones on the ball. If you destroy the base, no one gets it, but if you save it, Cerberus has ships ready to capitalize on it. (Seen in the everyone-dies ending.)  If you said 'screw you, this goes to the Alliance', then the moment the Normandy was away to the Citadel, Cerberus would swoop in and take it.


'Every species must make its own advances' is a bunch of crock. All education is centered on the premise of learning from what others have discovered, not re-discovering it yourself. Everything you learn in chemistry, physics, all the natural laws and constants, other people discovered them, not you. Most people here probably have no idea how to make a computer, yet they see nothing wrong with using technology given to them by others.

[tonnactus]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The reapers are millions of years old,know and understand their technology better then any organic race now could do it in this short time.They could just adapt their shields if necessary to make the primitive thannix cannons uneffective(i am sure their tools/collectors dont got the state of the art weapons/protection anyway)
The best and believable end would be if the organic races destroy the reaper fleet with luring them in an exloding star.
An ordinary spacefight that would be won be the organic races would be stupid.

Modifié par tonnactus, 20 avril 2010 - 02:09 .

[mopotter]

justinnstuff wrote...

Archereon wrote...

Has been that Paragons have actually been setting themselves up to get royally screwed.


Saving the Rachni?  All the Reapers have to do is send another "oily tone" through space and boom, Reapers have a Rachni army.

Sparing the Heretics?  It backfires and all geth besides legion and other isolated platforms become heretics.

Sparing the Council?  "Ah yes, Reapers."

Destroying the Collector Base?  You dumbarses!

Curing the Genophage?  RAAAAWR, KROGAN SMASH ALL PUNY ALIENZ!




Now that would suck so much for me, a dedicated paragon, but it would be kind of hilarious.

I'm a paragon too. Funny thing about it, I'd laugh histerically, then cry.

Me - I'd not laugh or cry.  I'd trade it in and give up on the idea of trusting anyone ever again.  Lucky I don't think my trust is misplaced.  

[Dean_the_Young]

And taking the Collector Base gives you grounds to take that state of the art weapon/protection technology. Reaper technology isn't fundamentally different from what they left the Galaxy, it's simply far more refined and stronger. Closing the tech gap closes the disprerency between what they have and what we have is the only way to mitigate their advantage. Sovereign was beaten in part by mass-accelerator guns, but would have fallen far quicker to the much better Thannix cannons. In terms of human history, it would be lessening the disadvantage from trying to shoot down a Eurofighter with a WW1 anti-aircraft gun to a Korean wire-guided missile. Still a disadvantage, but much less so.



The Reapers are not magical. They are technological. Their technology is already proven strong enough to survive Supernovas (the Mass Relay), but to fall to others means. Since the Organics can mass superior numbers of ships with increasingly advanced weapons, the Reapers can be beaten. There might be a hundred-to-one, a thousand-to-one, or a million-to-one kill ratio, but those are ratios that see the galaxy win.



The only alternative to beating the Reapers by closing the tech gap using Reaper tech is to close the gap with some other tech, which for a variety of reasons is completely unfeasible and unrealistic.

[Mister Mida]

Oh well, my Paragons love a challenge

[tonnactus]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Sovereign was beaten in part by mass-accelerator guns, but would have fallen far quicker to the much better Thannix cannons.

Wrong.Sovereign loosed his shields after Shepardt destroyed the saren hopper(a dev confirm that).Its systems were  disorientated with that.

[Dean_the_Young]

That... doesn't counter what I said. In the time Sovereign was disoriented, the mass-accelerator guns pounded into him. Thannix cannons would have done the job much better, and might have even been able to lower the shields without needing to destroy the avatar. In a straight-up fight, they're far better than the ME1 generation main guns.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

Mister Mida wrote...

Oh well, my Paragons love a challenge

well, my actual playthrough.... I destroyed the base, be interesting to see what happens.

[Zulu_DFA]

tonnactus wrote...

... a dev confirm...

Link, or it's BS.

[curly haired boy]

i just want to say i support the Vorcha Reaper.



BACK! I TEAR YOUR PLANET!

[Terraneaux]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Cerberus is the only option because they're the ones on the ball. If you destroy the base, no one gets it, but if you save it, Cerberus has ships ready to capitalize on it. (Seen in the everyone-dies ending.)  If you said 'screw you, this goes to the Alliance', then the moment the Normandy was away to the Citadel, Cerberus would swoop in and take it.

And yet Shepard doesn't know this.  Furthermore Shep isn't able to say 'Let's blow up the base because I don't want Cerberus having it.'  Instead you justify it saying that the base is inherently evil because a lot of people died there.  Seriously wtf, technology can't be 'inherently evil.'  

'Every species must make its own advances' is a bunch of crock. All education is centered on the premise of learning from what others have discovered, not re-discovering it yourself. Everything you learn in chemistry, physics, all the natural laws and constants, other people discovered them, not you. Most people here probably have no idea how to make a computer, yet they see nothing wrong with using technology given to them by others.

I agree.  

Modifié par Terraneaux, 20 avril 2010 - 08:00 .

[DuffyMJ]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

All Reaper technology is bad. Except for the the Normandy's weapons, the Normandy's engines,, EDI, every gun in the game, shields, the Citadel, the Mass Relays, biotics, and everything known about and using element zero.

Remember folks, history shows that with pluck, cunning, and moral superiority, there's no need for anything close to technological parity between foes: after all, they already know how it works, so it must be ineffective against them.

By which historiography would you prefer us to use?  One that's dominated by male historians who marginalize almost all history besides major battles, even though most had absolutely no effect on civilization outcomes besides terrible battle poetry?  The Romans crushed Attila the Hun in France, didn't change jack, culture wiped out regardless.  Basques and Irish and others never won a battle in their history and have been occupied and colonized and abused for centuries, yet continue to exist and quite prosperously as well...

[DuffyMJ]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

And taking the Collector Base gives you grounds to take that state of the art weapon/protection technology. Reaper technology isn't fundamentally different from what they left the Galaxy, it's simply far more refined and stronger. Closing the tech gap closes the disprerency between what they have and what we have is the only way to mitigate their advantage. Sovereign was beaten in part by mass-accelerator guns, but would have fallen far quicker to the much better Thannix cannons. In terms of human history, it would be lessening the disadvantage from trying to shoot down a Eurofighter with a WW1 anti-aircraft gun to a Korean wire-guided missile. Still a disadvantage, but much less so.

The Reapers are not magical. They are technological. Their technology is already proven strong enough to survive Supernovas (the Mass Relay), but to fall to others means. Since the Organics can mass superior numbers of ships with increasingly advanced weapons, the Reapers can be beaten. There might be a hundred-to-one, a thousand-to-one, or a million-to-one kill ratio, but those are ratios that see the galaxy win.

The only alternative to beating the Reapers by closing the tech gap using Reaper tech is to close the gap with some other tech, which for a variety of reasons is completely unfeasible and unrealistic.

Technology is a force multiplier.  Nothing more.  Vigil made it abundantly clear that the Reapers cannot overwhelm organic civilization without first decapitating its government in a surprise assault, isolating organics world by world, and using surprise elements such as indoctrinated refugees.

You do not at all need to close the technological gap to win, in fact it's more of a liability to introduce unfamiliar tools, something paragons recognize.  In my line of work (policing), introducing technology has been a disaster many times.  Shot Spotter (a $100,000 per unit camera system that can detect gunshots and alert dispatch) nearly bankrupted a local PD in my area and actually ended up being a disaster because -- statistically -- suddenly crime in the city looked much worse because recorded incidents of firearm discharge wen through the room while the cameras themselves failed to aid in catching suspects due to response time lag.  Another example is when police replaced .38 revolvers with automatic pistols with magazines...  These guns have increased wrong place-wrong time deaths significantly.  Radiological detectors were bought by NYPD after 9/11 for a pretty penny... Hardly any officers know how to use them and because they're a new "toy", captains keep them locked in their offices.  My department started using video conferencing with the county DA for the arraignment process (we have to swear our accounts, etc.)  and even this has been a disaster... Some guys will break the webcams or have "connection difficulties" as an excuse to stretch the process out so they can get that extra couple hours of overtime.  Other guys who've been on the job for 30-some odd year, they don't know how to use this stuff.  What they do works, and it works good.

Suddenly introducing completely new star ships and weapons and small arms technologies on the eve of an invasion?  It's a dumb idea.  It'll do about as good for the organics as flooding sub-sahara africa with AK-47s did.

[ThisIsMadness91]

The Angry One wrote...

Archereon wrote...

Saving the Rachni?  All the Reapers have to do is send another "oily tone" through space and boom, Reapers have a Rachni army.

Assuming the Queen isn't fully prepared for this and developing mental defenses against it, given she knows just exactly who turned the Rachni on the galaxy and how they did it.

Sparing the Heretics?  It backfires and all geth besides legion and other isolated platforms become heretics.

Why would they?

Sparing the Council?  "Ah yes, Reapers."

Because the replacement Councils are so much more receptive.

Destroying the Collector Base?  You dumbarses!

Yeah I didn't give a Reaper-o-matic to a racist megalomaniac. I am teh dumb.

Curing the Genophage?  RAAAAWR, KROGAN SMASH ALL PUNY ALIENZ!

Meh, anti-Reaper Krogan army ftw. Then genophage them again.
Yeah I'm an ass.

This. Except if the krogan betrayed the galaxy like that, I'd probably stop being nice and have them driven to extinction. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

As for destroying the Collector base, if the only person I can had it to is the Illusive Man, I'd rather destroy it. I can't help but think he's either try to make Reapers out of the other species, or use the rest of the technology to enslave them. I admit, it's a shame that we have to destroy everything if we don't want him to have it, but I'd rather have that than put that kind of tech in the hands of a man whose motives and mental balance are in question.

I hate it when people try to use the "That tech only gave us EDI, the Thanix cannons, etc." argument. It suggests that we are in love with all that stuff or something.

If Paragons are punished for "not being Renegade", I will get rid of all ME-related stuff.

scyphozoa wrote...

 In my canon, Krogan Warlords will ride on the backs of Rachni Brood Warriors into battle against the Reapers. 

BioWare, please make this happen in ME3!

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Oh, it's pretty easy. You just have to care about people more than yourself.

"Are the beliefs of one person (me) more important than saving a greater number of people/preventing future threat to greater number of people?"

A Paragon says yes. A Renegade says no, and is insulted you asked the question.

(Not always, but for the big questions.)

You really think Paragons are that selfish? Perhaps in some cases it could be interpreted that way, but if you try to say that Renegades are all selfless, you're deluded.

[xI extremist Ix]

The Angry One wrote...


Their main fleet was wiped out, but they still have plenty of ships. That are basically beaten at every turn by Citadel ships after the battle.

I read some whee that the fleet that attacked the Citadel was only 5% of their forces, so there are plenty more Geth to be used as fodder.

[DPSSOC]

Nu-Nu wrote...

ILIAS R wrote...

i really don't get you people why we shouldn't keep the Collector's base technological advancement is always the way to achieve superiority against an enemy you can be cunning or super intelligent but there is no way to deal with a gun if another hand handling it f.e in ww2 the atom bomb was just a hoax what if axis got they're hands on it first.

Keeping the base can either go 2 ways, I think.  There's a trap built into it and you're screwed.  There's no trap but cereberus becomes power made and kill all the other aliens and not just reaper.  Also, there's a chance he'll make himself or you the new human reaper's brain.

I support Shepard for Human Reaper Brain.

[Zulu_DFA]

One of the main factors Western civilization propagated itself all over the world was gun powder. And guess what, that "tech" is chinese in origin. As for AK-47 in Africa, it changed nothing. Tribal fighting will always be the way of living there.