139 réponses à ce sujet

[SarEnyaDor]

o.0 That thread is still going? I thought it got Woo'ed weeks and weeks ago....

[Onyx Jaguar]

It arised from the dead so we could bask in its glory

[SarEnyaDor]

Yes... basking.... and glory.... those are the EXACT words I'd use ....



*insert sarcastic and somewhat worried face here*

[AZ RUSH]

Ok, sorry just skimmed the post.

Modifié par AZ RUSH, 20 avril 2010 - 02:50 .

[SarEnyaDor]

I sent you a PM, he addressed this "major fact" in detail in fact

[Lemonwizard]

Honestly, despite how well thought out and detailed your post was, I think you've entirely missed the most important thing about the issue.





Even if we were to assume that the Quarians, for whatever reason, evolved obscenely fast, had their immune system already weak for whatever reasons have been enumerated, etc.... That is to say, even if all the handwaving were taken seriously - there's a glaring error that anybody with even a basic understanding of evolution can see.





Mutations only ever spread to become dominant within a population if they're beneficial. Mutations that make an organism weaker do not become prevalent over other genes. Such an evolutionary path wouldn't occur even if the necessary time HAD passed. That's the core principle on which evolution functions. Natural selection suggests that if you've got Quarians who are dying from infections whenever an air filter breaks down (Tali mentions this is how her mother died), their immune systems should actually be getting STRONGER.

[Gavinthelocust]

Lemonwizard wrote...

Honestly, despite how well thought out and detailed your post was, I think you've entirely missed the most important thing about the issue.


Even if we were to assume that the Quarians, for whatever reason, evolved obscenely fast, had their immune system already weak for whatever reasons have been enumerated, etc.... That is to say, even if all the handwaving were taken seriously - there's a glaring error that anybody with even a basic understanding of evolution can see.


Mutations only ever spread to become dominant within a population if they're beneficial. Mutations that make an organism weaker do not become prevalent over other genes. Such an evolutionary path wouldn't occur even if the necessary time HAD passed. That's the core principle on which evolution functions. Natural selection suggests that if you've got Quarians who are dying from infections whenever an air filter breaks down (Tali mentions this is how her mother died), their immune systems should actually be getting STRONGER.

Nice one there.
What now Bioware?

[SarEnyaDor]

LOL @ Gavin, I think if you keep taunting BioWare like that someone might come in and answer.... nah, what am I thinking? Why would they when random Tali-fans will come in and ignore the problems stated and just keep reguritating the same codex entries that make no sense as if repeating them enough times will suddenly make them make sense?

[Lemonwizard]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

LOL @ Gavin, I think if you keep taunting BioWare like that someone might come in and answer.... nah, what am I thinking? Why would they when random Tali-fans will come in and ignore the problems stated and just keep reguritating the same codex entries that make no sense as if repeating them enough times will suddenly make them make sense?

Again, as I detailed in my earlier post, EVEN IF we took every last bit of Bioware's justification for it seriously, it's still a biology fail. Evolution doesn't work that way.

[cos1ne]

Lemonwizard wrote...

Mutations only ever spread to become dominant within a population if they're beneficial. Mutations that make an organism weaker do not become prevalent over other genes. Such an evolutionary path wouldn't occur even if the necessary time HAD passed. That's the core principle on which evolution functions. Natural selection suggests that if you've got Quarians who are dying from infections whenever an air filter breaks down (Tali mentions this is how her mother died), their immune systems should actually be getting STRONGER.

Not that I'm disagreeing with you but that's not technically the whole truth. Mutations only ever become dominant in a population if they are not detrimental enough to prevent the organism from reproducing. I mean you could have a mutation that makes all humans die by age 30 and as long as you have kids before then the genes will pass on. However I do agree that evolving weaker and weaker immune systems does seem to defy natural selection.

----


Also I'd like to thank everyone who enjoyed my post, like I said before I really like quarians and just want to help point out some errors in their design so that the developers can fix them and get them to make a little more sense.

Also, I never let this things ruin the awesome story they had written, hell I romanced Tali for God's sake. So really it's more of a critique then a criticism of the quarian design.

[Lemonwizard]

cos1ne wrote...

Lemonwizard wrote...

Mutations only ever spread to become dominant within a population if they're beneficial. Mutations that make an organism weaker do not become prevalent over other genes. Such an evolutionary path wouldn't occur even if the necessary time HAD passed. That's the core principle on which evolution functions. Natural selection suggests that if you've got Quarians who are dying from infections whenever an air filter breaks down (Tali mentions this is how her mother died), their immune systems should actually be getting STRONGER.

Not that I'm disagreeing with you but that's not technically the whole truth. Mutations only ever become dominant in a population if they are not detrimental enough to prevent the organism from reproducing. I mean you could have a mutation that makes all humans die by age 30 and as long as you have kids before then the genes will pass on. However I do agree that evolving weaker and weaker immune systems does seem to defy natural selection.

You are correct, but the point I'm trying to make is that beneficial mutations become widespread after a number of generations for a clear reason, because they provide obvious advantages to survival. A harmful mutation could only become widespread by accident.


And aside from that, I'd say "getting sick and dying from even the slightest exposure to anything but a clean room environment" is the sort of thing that would be detrimental enough to prevent an organism from reproducing on a significant enough.

[Zilod]

cos1ne wrote...
snip

QUARIANS MAKE NO SENSE!!!

i think she speaking more about bacteria rather than viruses
to some point i agree with you and i think there is some confusion on the topic but as a sci fi i generally try to "fill the gaps" or to imagine how a thing could be

personally in reguard of  what it is said about the quarian homeworld, make me think that the plant where responsable in some way for the quarians immunity system, even on earth various plants "award" insect with nutrients and such for their "impollination work" maybe on quarian world the reward included some antibiotic substance, who kept the quarians healthy but also compromised their immunity system.

then with the war, when they where forced to leave their home planet the "natural assumption" of such substances, where promply interrupted, making their immunity system fall very repentine, expecially for the new born that never assumed it.

the fact that quarians founded colonies could be explained as, at first these substances where still in their organism and, by the time they eventually went out of it, the immunity system had alredy adapted to the new enviroment, something not anymore possible as quarian born in space never had the chance to assume these substances.

note that i'm generally speaking of "benefical substances" but the relation can be more complex with maybe benefical bacteria rather than generic "substances"... but my "point" is that there was some sort of symbiotic relation between plants and quarians, with quarians spreading pollins and plants boosting (directly or not) quarian immunity system so, when quarians where forced out of planet they lost the "plant protection" and their alredy weak immunity system fell apart

Modifié par Zilod, 20 avril 2010 - 02:33 .

[MrNose]

Keep in mind that Quarians are crazily different than Humans. They aren't even able to eat Human food, only Turian food.

[SarEnyaDor]

Okay just throwing this out there - bacteria have cell walls made out of proteins, the codex says their proteins and ours are toxic to each other, so wouldn't that by default make our bacteria also toxic to them? Viruses also comprised of - you guessed it - protein strands!



If our proteins and their proteins are toxic to each other, it doesn't matter if they get sick the same we do or not they will still be affected by the toxicity of those proteins, except instead of having ingested the poison they have inhaled it deep into their lungs....

[Lemonwizard]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

Okay just throwing this out there - bacteria have cell walls made out of proteins, the codex says their proteins and ours are toxic to each other, so wouldn't that by default make our bacteria also toxic to them? Viruses also comprised of - you guessed it - protein strands!

If our proteins and their proteins are toxic to each other, it doesn't matter if they get sick the same we do or not they will still be affected by the toxicity of those proteins, except instead of having ingested the poison they have inhaled it deep into their lungs....

Clearly that's not the case, because if it were then Humans/Asari/Salarians would also then be getting sick just from being in open air rooms with Turians.

[Sigma Tauri]

Or it could be...



"Stand by shore party. Decontamination in progress..."

[SarEnyaDor]

So true! But if our proteins were toxic to them and vice-versa then we *would* be getting ill/poisoned from breathing the same air.

It is all tragically scientifically flawed, but it has pretty cinematics and explosions, and I get to head-butt Krogans ... think that makes it a wash, right?

 

Good night guys.

[Zilod]

well is not that you eat something toxic and you die, it also depends by concentration and the level of toxicity, i dont think the proteins of some aerial bacteria will be enought to intoxicate someone

[Jax Sparrow]

Pauravi wrote...

Frankly, it just doesn't matter.
Whether it is entirely consistent or not doesn't matter to me one whit. If it did, I could come up with a lot of other gripes, such as how the chirality of a protein doesn't make it toxic, or even biologically useless to our bodies. If this sort of minutae matters that much to you then I think you're missing the point of sciFI and storytelling.
It only needs to sound plausible on the surface, and it does. The truth is probably that Bioware writers wanted to create a race that had a particular identity, and then they invented a plausible-sounding way to make them that way. I think they did a good job, and they created a race with an interesting culture, history, and relationship to the ME universe. This is far better than scrapping the idea just because someone might pick it apart with a pair of tweezers and a magnifying glass and point out that the writers don't all have a degree in biology.

This is the problem, it only sounds ok if you are ignorant of science and biology... and/or are like me and actually have an autoimmune disease.  The last thing I would do is take "antibiotics" for an allergic reaction... that would be silly in the head.

KalReegarVasNeema wrote...  It's actually in canon that Quarians had little to know immunity from germs even suitless on their home planet, because their planet just didn't have them. It's difficult to imagine but it's not impossible, as far as we know anyway. We're assuming these other species could exist, so that fact isn't to far fetched either.

What is canon?  the game?  this is the point the information relayed to us via the game directly conflicts with itself.  That conflict is irrelevant to what humans have yet to know about the universe.  

There may really be Quarians in our universe, no one can say for certain, but what we can say for certain is how our biology works.  Because our homeworlds are similar enough to create a sentient humanoid species, that means it is extremely reasonable to operate under the premise that their biology would behave as we know our own does.


However, I agree with the sentiment that we should find whatever solution that we find acceptable and just imagine that is the 'answer' instead of the failed technobabble Tali and Kal give us... I mean, children born into bubbles? really?  I know BioWare has some co-founders somewhere around there that actually passed their final exam to become Doctors.

Modifié par Jax Sparrow, 20 avril 2010 - 05:40 .

[Privateerkev]

cos1ne wrote...
I actually don't base all of this on what Tali states, the vast majority is based on the Mass Effect wiki article on quarians, which uses the novels, the game and the in-game codex to explain things. And of course, Tali could be incorrect in her analogies or assumptions but when something is placed into a game, it becomes "canon" to that universe because the developers put it in there, which means that although Tali can be wrong, Bioware cannot.

Also, I do understand that quarians follow different evolutionary pathways, but certain things always hold true. We are told quarians have similar DNA to us (although it is right-handed), which means that they must follow similar rates of mutation because of what we observe in genetics. Evolution can be done differently but it still most follow the same patterns or the entire concept is wrong.

Don't assume the codexes are always correct either. Just read some of ME2's codexes on the citidel and events surrounding the first game. The codexes show general encyclopedia knowledge. And it is knowledge written from a certain point of view. (I'm assuming from some sort of Council authorized scholar or group of scholars.) Your "character" in ME2 knows far more about certain subjects, like the Reapers, than is in the codexes.

So, while BW is always correct. Do not assume they are always giving you correct information in the game.

As for having similar DNA, you still have to keep in mind that these two groups evolved in totally different places. The two planets had different gravities, distances from sun, climate, flora, fauna, sun activity, atmospheres, ect... While the "rate" of mutation may be the same, your assuming the same thing will cause the same mutation to both groups.

And do not forget the affect of culture. Quarians have lived in these suits for hundreds of years. While it might not make sense to us, this is their reality. They've developed their whole society around living on these ships. Societies tend to keep doing something long after the actual need for it fades. Nor will culture always adhere strictly to rational thought and science. Look at our own debates over evolution in society...

[Lord Coake]

To the OP, I salute you. Awesome post.



Biology has always interested me a great deal, and your post neatly points out all the little things that were nagging at the back of my mind about the Quarians. Something never really added up.



However, as the story is written, thats how they are. Now, with that said, it's time for hypothesis on what happened.



All of your points direct my suspicious and directly cynical mind to one conclusion: The Quarians' immune system didn't degrade naturally in such a short period of time, it was intentionally broken by an outside force.



Would such drastic reductions in their immune systems be possible through systemic attack via biological agents?

[Sharn01]

Virtual winter wrote...

cos1ne wrote...

Ok it's not like the quarians experienced a noah's ark disaster, where there were just a handful left alive. The quarian fleet has the same population as the nation of the netherlands. The dutch have a fairly homogenous population, and have had one for hundreds of years. Yet they do not show any drastic mutations, as a people.

And actually the quarians get around far more then the dutch did before the industrial age. 

We're the tallest nation on earth, and became that in the last 100 years.  Isn't that a drastic mutation?

And we had lots of colonies around the world - we surely did get around!

The rest of the piece is pretty well thought out though.

You live in the Netherlands?

[Nu-Nu]

Yes but in reality there are stupid mothers who sterile their homes because they're afraid their precious child will catch a germ and have an ocd for cleaniness. That does effect the child and they develop asthma because they've become too sensitve to germs and dust. The mother never let their kid build up their immune system when they were babies/toddlers and they suffer for it when they're older.

And some immunity is passed from mother to child, so if the mother has never been exposed to germs, she won't build up her immune system and pass the antibiotics to her children during pregancy or breast feeding.

Times this over 15 generations, and all immunity will be weaken considerably. They haven't evolve/de-evolve to become weaker, their immune system just hasn't been tested or strengthen through exposure or gain immunity from the mother.

They can also cope with their homeworld because the germs there are beneficial to them, on a symbiosis level they've come to rely on them but being expelled means they're no longer exposed to these germs and without those germs they get ill.

Modifié par Nu-Nu, 20 avril 2010 - 10:06 .

[piemanz]

Nu-Nu wrote...

Yes but in reality there are stupid mothers
who steril their homes because they're afraid their precious child will
catch a germ and have an ocd for cleaniness. That does effect the child
and they develop asthma because they're become too sensitve to germs
and dust. The mother never let their kid build up an immune system when
they were babies/toddlers and they suffer for it when they're older.

And
some immunity is passed from mother to child, so if the mother has
never been exposed to germs, she won't build up her immune system and
pass the antibiotics to her children during pregancy or breast feeding.

Times
this over 15 generations, and all immunity will be weaken considerably.
They haven't evolve/de-evolve to become weaker, their immune system
just hasn't been tested or strengthen through exposure or gain immunity
from the mother.

They can also cope with their homeworld because
the germs there are beneficial to them, on a symbiosis level they've
come to rely on them but being expelled means they're no longer exposed
to these germs and without those germs they get ill.

This.^

Lemonwizard wrote...

Mutations only ever spread to become dominant within a population if they're beneficial. Mutations that make an organism weaker do not become prevalent over other genes. Such an evolutionary path wouldn't occur even if the necessary time HAD passed. That's the core principle on which evolution functions. Natural selection suggests that if you've got Quarians who are dying from infections whenever an air filter breaks down (Tali mentions this is how her mother died), their immune systems should actually be getting STRONGER.

But if a civilization is so advanced that  almost all of the 'weakened' genes are still in circulation because they are being kept alive artificially by thier suits ,then the laws of natural selection are pretty much negated.It makes sense that the more they had to wear the suits the more they depended upon them until it got to the point where they are today ,where they are completly dependant upon them.

Modifié par piemanz, 20 avril 2010 - 09:14 .

[uhdnrt]

Op, you make way to many assumptions in your post. Things we know from in game (codex and convos):

- the quarian homeworld does not not have insects.

- Plants and other organisms instead travel by "riding" mammals.

- Viruses and pollens/allergens do not have "negative"/harmful effects (never developed on their homeworld).

- quarians do not fight viruses or allergens; their bodies "adapt" to the outside matter. Their bodies do not become immune to the virus or allergen as a human does by developing antibodies in order to stop the spread of allergens and pathogens.

- their immune system is "weak". This is likely because they have to adapt to each individual strain of an allergen or pathogen; they do not have antibodies like humans do.

- the allergic reaction they experience is their body adapting to the foreign matter, not becoming immune to it. Reaction severity differs depending on the amount of adaptation required.

- It is likely (though unstated) that Quarians required their suits in order to interact on any planet that they were not born on (including colonies) until they could adapt in a controlled enviroment (ie, slowly).

- Places like the Citadel, with many races (and the proportionate increase in allergens and pathogens each individual planet travelers went to) would likely be fatal even 300 years ago to an unsuited quarian.

- with such an "absorb and adapt" immune system, not being planet-side at birth means, effectively, the only allergens and pathogens a newborn would come in contact with are the ones that the mother has already adapted to (which it is already adapted to as well). Without a natural, native enviroment, the relatively pathogen free enviroment of a ship would mean that each generation born would have less and less initial adaptations; This is why living in a sterile enviroment (like the flotilla) would cause all quarians to have a weaker immune system.

- it is implied (but not outright stated) that without constant exposure, the quarian physiology will "regress", and lose any adaptations it is not constantly exposed to - which would explain why even their native enivorment on rannoch will require extensive time to re-acclimate to (and only currently living quarians).



Overall, Bioware did a decent job of explaining what was going on with the quarians; I find that you base fare too much of your argument on how humans adapt and overcome pathogens. It is outright stated that quarians do not adapt like that.

Also keep in mind that humans are also significantly more geneticvally diverse thanevery other known race in ME (stated in game multiple times).Not just culturally, but genetically diverse. Essentially, all turians (even turians from colonies) will be more similar genetically than two humans from different continents (say, Europe and Asia).



Honestly,that is more mind boggling than the quarian biology.