139 réponses à ce sujet

[SarEnyaDor]

I think it can be summed up with Drew is a writer, not a doctor, Jim!



They didn't hire biologists or scientists or even spend a weekend watching the plethora of science programming available from the BBC, Nova, Discovery etc...



It was sloppy science, stop making excuses for it. Accept that it is bad science (not the worst bad science, but still bad science) and just enjoy the game for the story and gameplay and don't use Mass Effect science as a guideline for how things actually work, because it will end in failure (especially if it is for a grade)

[Web2nr]

cos1ne wrote...

This means that humanity suffered more by crossing an ocean then quarians did crossing star systems.

[Habelo]

You know that the indians deid from a sneeze from us humans when we first counqered their lands right?



So how is it that a race that lives only in spaceships where everyone either die by to much bacteria or you annihilate all bacteria to survive so unrealistic?

[Lemonwizard]

Habelo wrote...

You know that the indians deid from a sneeze from us humans when we first counqered their lands right?

So how is it that a race that lives only in spaceships where everyone either die by to much bacteria or you annihilate all bacteria to survive so unrealistic?

Because the human populations in North America and Europe were separated for thousands of years, not just 300. And also, Quarian immune systems aren't even able to tolerate their own Rannoch diseases anymore.



Also, keep in mind that when we're talking about planet differences, they pretty apparently do not matter in the ME universe, considering how we've not heard of a single instance of the "First contact was only one generation ago" humans getting sick with Asari or Salarian diseases.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

Lemonwizard wrote...

Habelo wrote...

You know that the indians deid from a sneeze from us humans when we first counqered their lands right?

So how is it that a race that lives only in spaceships where everyone either die by to much bacteria or you annihilate all bacteria to survive so unrealistic?

Because the human populations in North America and Europe were separated for thousands of years, not just 300. And also, Quarian immune systems aren't even able to tolerate their own Rannoch diseases anymore.



Also, keep in mind that when we're talking about planet differences, they pretty apparently do not matter in the ME universe, considering how we've not heard of a single instance of the "First contact was only one generation ago" humans getting sick with Asari or Salarian diseases.

I am assuming that the salarians/asari would have vaccines made for us if that was to happen. As if you notice in ME2, the introduction to another new race might be coming soon and they are in first contact stages where the new race. If i remember correctly, the new race was facing some new disease that even had the council reps were afraid of spreading around.

Modifié par Andrew_Waltfeld, 20 avril 2010 - 04:00 .

[Habelo]

Lemonwizard wrote...

Habelo wrote...

You know that the indians deid from a sneeze from us humans when we first counqered their lands right?

So how is it that a race that lives only in spaceships where everyone either die by to much bacteria or you annihilate all bacteria to survive so unrealistic?

Because the human populations in North America and Europe were separated for thousands of years, not just 300. And also, Quarian immune systems aren't even able to tolerate their own Rannoch diseases anymore.



Also, keep in mind that when we're talking about planet differences, they pretty apparently do not matter in the ME universe, considering how we've not heard of a single instance of the "First contact was only one generation ago" humans getting sick with Asari or Salarian diseases.

Lol, it wasnt the genetics that made them die. It was cause they didnt grow up with a populated envoirment that introduced their immunity system to as much bacteria/viruses- hence they have a bad immunity system.

 : )

Modifié par Habelo, 20 avril 2010 - 04:00 .

[Lemonwizard]

Habelo wrote...

Lemonwizard wrote...

Habelo wrote...

You know that the indians deid from a sneeze from us humans when we first counqered their lands right?

So how is it that a race that lives only in spaceships where everyone either die by to much bacteria or you annihilate all bacteria to survive so unrealistic?

Because the human populations in North America and Europe were separated for thousands of years, not just 300. And also, Quarian immune systems aren't even able to tolerate their own Rannoch diseases anymore.



Also, keep in mind that when we're talking about planet differences, they pretty apparently do not matter in the ME universe, considering how we've not heard of a single instance of the "First contact was only one generation ago" humans getting sick with Asari or Salarian diseases.

Lol, it wasnt the genetics that made them die. It was cause they didnt grow up with a populated envoirment that introduced their immunity system to as much bacteria/viruses- hence they have a bad immunity system.

 : )

European populations had natural resistances to smallpox et all, which North American populations did not because those diseases did not exist on their continent. Smallpox isn't a disease like Chicken Pox which you catch and then adapt to. If you haven't got a genetic resistance to it the first time around, you die.

[The Governator]

Well, Tali does say that most viruses on their planet had some benefit to them.  I think of it like Montgomery Burns who had 'everything'.  But, every disease and ailment he had was in perfect balance to counteract all the others.  That's Quarian biology for you.

[Solomen]

I don't really see how people don't understand this. Quarians have atrophied immune systems from spending their entire lives in quarantine. A human in similar circumstances would have an atrophied immune system. Add to that the quarians didn't have much to begin with and even an allergic reaction can be fatal.



On Haestrom, Kal is swimming in antibiotics as a precaution against D-amino virii and bacteria. Haestrom was a quarian colony at one point and could still have Rannochian microorganisms despite the sun. 300 years of evolution and contact with Haestromese organisms could produce something lethal.



Actually if they let themselves adapt I'm sure the quarians will find out that their immune potential has greatly increased since it is only tested by acute and potentially lethal allergens.

[Solomen]

Did I really break the thread?

[cos1ne]

Zilod wrote...
personally in reguard of  what it is said about the quarian homeworld, make me think that the plant where responsable in some way for the quarians immunity system, even on earth various plants "award" insect with nutrients and such for their "impollination work" maybe on quarian world the reward included some antibiotic substance, who kept the quarians healthy but also compromised their immunity system.

then with the war, when they where forced to leave their home planet the "natural assumption" of such substances, where promply interrupted, making their immunity system fall very repentine, expecially for the new born that never assumed it.

the fact that quarians founded colonies could be explained as, at first these substances where still in their organism and, by the time they eventually went out of it, the immunity system had alredy adapted to the new enviroment, something not anymore possible as quarian born in space never had the chance to assume these substances.

note that i'm generally speaking of "benefical substances" but the relation can be more complex with maybe benefical bacteria rather than generic "substances"... but my "point" is that there was some sort of symbiotic relation between plants and quarians, with quarians spreading pollins and plants boosting (directly or not) quarian immunity system so, when quarians where forced out of planet they lost the "plant protection" and their alredy weak immunity system fell apart

Yes but you seem to forget quarians were not isolated on one planet, but they had dozens of worlds spread over the galaxy plus a spot on the Citadel. Also they were highly technological and culturally advanced. This means that even if the 'natural antibiotics' by the plants were interrupted, they would have still had geneticists who could produce these same antibiotics. If you claim that they didn't have time to get samples, you don't think quarians would have taken precautions. A supernova could annhilate all life on Rannoch, they had to have had backups in labs or arboreums or even seed banks. Much like we humans have the world seed back in Svalbard.

Privateerkev wrote...

Don't assume the codexes are always
correct either. Just read some of ME2's codexes on the citidel and
events surrounding the first game. The codexes show general encyclopedia
knowledge. And it is knowledge written from a certain point of view.
(I'm assuming from some sort of Council authorized scholar or group of
scholars.) Your "character" in ME2 knows far more about certain
subjects, like the Reapers, than is in the codexes.

So, while BW
is always correct. Do not assume they are always giving you correct
information in the game.

As for having similar DNA, you still
have to keep in mind that these two groups evolved in totally different
places. The two planets had different gravities, distances from sun,
climate, flora, fauna, sun activity, atmospheres, ect... While the
"rate" of mutation may be the same, your assuming the same thing will
cause the same mutation to both groups.

And do not forget the
affect of culture. Quarians have lived in these suits for hundreds of
years. While it might not make sense to us, this is their reality.
They've developed their whole society around living on these ships.
Societies tend to keep doing something long after the actual need for it
fades. Nor will culture always adhere strictly to rational thought and
science. Look at our own debates over evolution in society...

Of
course the codexes aren't necessarily "correct" but
when our character gets new information, like Zaaed founding the Blue
Suns, we update the codex. So we have to assume that the information in
the codex is correct until it is altered by new information, otherwise
what's even the point of having the thing.

And though I agree that quarians may mutate at a different rate,
or in different matters. If a population of millions can all together
mutate no immune system in only fifteen generations, then their
pre-quarian ancestors would never have evolved due to all the
detrimental mutations that would have built up in their systems.

I
posit that quarians have only been in their suits for a maximum of
200-250 years, and although that's time enough for sweeping cultural
change, I still don't think they'd wear their helmets all the time if
they could help it.

Nu-Nu wrote...
Times this over 15 generations, and all
immunity will be weaken considerably. They haven't evolve/de-evolve to
become weaker, their immune system just hasn't been tested or strengthen
through exposure or gain immunity from the mother.

They can also
cope with their homeworld because the germs there are beneficial to
them, on a symbiosis level they've come to rely on them but being
expelled means they're no longer exposed to these germs and without
those germs they get ill.

Just to reiterate the point,
why would the quarians not be exposed to these germs, they obviously
brought them aboard the ship, and if they someone managed to get rid of
the dangerous bugs, they still would have kept enough of the beneficial
ones to boost their immune systems. And if they didn't have access to
all of the "immune system building" contaminants,
they colonized other worlds. Just pick up germs from another world to
bolster their immune system, hell pick up some Palaven plants and get
everyone 'acclimated' to those, so that they at least have some immunity
and then they'll only have a short sickness period before
re-acclimating to Rannoch.

uhdnrt wrote...

Op, you make way to many assumptions in
your post. Things we know from in game (codex and convos):
1.
Viruses and pollens/allergens do not have "negative"/harmful effects
(never developed on their homeworld).
2. quarians do not fight
viruses or allergens; their bodies "adapt" to the outside matter. Their
bodies do not become immune to the virus or allergen as a human does by
developing antibodies in order to stop the spread of allergens and
pathogens.
3. their immune system is "weak". This is likely because
they have to adapt to each individual strain of an allergen or pathogen;
they do not have antibodies like humans do.
4. the allergic reaction
they experience is their body adapting to the foreign matter, not
becoming immune to it. Reaction severity differs depending on the
amount of adaptation required.
5. It is likely (though unstated)
that Quarians required their suits in order to interact on any planet
that they were not born on (including colonies) until they could adapt
in a controlled enviroment (ie, slowly).
6. Places like the Citadel,
with many races (and the proportionate increase in allergens and
pathogens each individual planet travelers went to) would likely be
fatal even 300 years ago to an unsuited quarian.
7. with such an
"absorb and adapt" immune system, not being planet-side at birth means,
effectively, the only allergens and pathogens a newborn would come in
contact with are the ones that the mother has already adapted to (which
it is already adapted to as well). Without a natural, native
enviroment, the relatively pathogen free enviroment of a ship would mean
that each generation born would have less and less initial
adaptations; This is why living in a sterile enviroment (like the
flotilla) would cause all quarians to have a weaker immune system.
8.
it is implied (but not outright stated) that without constant exposure,
the quarian physiology will "regress", and lose any adaptations it is
not constantly exposed to - which would explain why even their native
enivorment on rannoch will require extensive time to re-acclimate to
(and only currently living quarians).

Overall, Bioware
did a decent job of explaining what was going on with the quarians; I
find that you base fare too much of your argument on how humans adapt
and overcome pathogens. It is outright stated that quarians do not
adapt like that.
Also keep in mind that humans are also
significantly more geneticvally diverse thanevery other known race
in ME (stated in game multiple times).Not just culturally, but
genetically diverse. Essentially, all turians (even turians from
colonies) will be more similar genetically than two humans from
different continents (say, Europe and Asia).

Honestly,that
is more mind boggling than the quarian biology.

I've
numbered some of your points for easy reference.

1. Tali states
that "most viruses were partially
beneficial" no where is it implied that there were never dangerous
germs, so they would have had to have evolved at least a rudimentary
immune system.
2. If they did not develop any immunity, then
they would be constantly sick as even if they adapted to foreign
contaminants more would just pile on the next day. Now this could make
sense if quarians never got sick from foreign contaminants (pollen and
their like) but only got sick from foreign pathogens. However Tali gets
sick after being exposed to Shepard's..uh...contaminants so this
"adapting" thing doesn't make sense. Although
if you follow that logic, once she's knocked boots with Shepard then she
should be "adapted" to him and able to do it
again without fear. Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger, eh?
3.
If they have to adapt to every strain of foreign matter that is a waste
of energy resources for a living creature and they would have been
out-competed early in their evolution by animals that had a general
immune system more in line with ours. Nature seeks to become as
energy-efficient as possible.
4. So wait, what is meant by adaptation
if they do not become immune to that. Are quarians covered in a
protective layer of snot at all times?....kind of ruins the romance for
most people.
5 and 6. Now who is making assumptions? There are no references in game to quarians wearing
suits to travel to other places.
7 and 8. As I stated earlier, why
didn't quarian scientists bring aboard the necessary adaptable
materials, and why don't doctors stimulate the immune systems with this
material much like how we get vaccinations when younger?

I don't know how much I like
this "adaptation" not "immunity" concept as introduced by quarians. Their homeworld
wasn't sterile and all the other planets they visited weren't sterile so
they still should have some immune system. Also I can't
see how this adaptivity would be superior to a regular functioning
immune system, especially if you require both at the same time. A
creature that just disregarded the adaptation process would be at an
evolutionary advantage over a primitive quarian because they would be
able to devote less resources to that and more towards energy storage or
energy retrieval (hunting/feeding).

Also unrelated but perhaps
Turians are more related simply becuase of something as simple as fewer
chromosomes.

SarEnyaDor wrote...

I think it can be summed up with Drew
is a writer, not a doctor, Jim!

They didn't hire biologists or
scientists or even spend a weekend watching the plethora of science
programming available from the BBC, Nova, Discovery etc...

It was
sloppy science, stop making excuses for it. Accept that it is bad
science (not the worst bad science, but still bad science) and just
enjoy the game for the story and gameplay and don't use Mass Effect
science as a guideline for how things actually work, because it will end
in failure (especially if it is for a grade)

Now, don't be so harsh on them Sar, I think they use better science the vast majority of sci-fi franchises. Granted that isn't very hard to do, but the reason I'm able to tear into their theories so viciously is because they explain things so very well. Hopefully by bringing up the gaping holes they'll be able to plug them somewhat in future installments to make a creature that does make sense.

Habelo wrote...

You know that the indians deid from a
sneeze from us humans when we first counqered their lands right?

So
how is it that a race that lives only in spaceships where everyone
either die by to much bacteria or you annihilate all bacteria to survive
so unrealistic?

Because indians didn't have
vaccines.....

The Governator wrote...

Well, Tali does say that most
viruses on their planet had some benefit to them.  I think of it like
Montgomery Burns who had 'everything'.  But, every disease and ailment
he had was in perfect balance to counteract all the others.  That's
Quarian biology for you.

You mean this?

Solomen wrote...

I don't really see how people don't
understand this. Quarians have atrophied immune systems from spending
their entire lives in quarantine. A human in similar circumstances
would have an atrophied immune system. Add to that the quarians didn't
have much to begin with and even an allergic reaction can be fatal.

See above, the point I'm trying to make is that if this
was a pre-industrial society, that was "raised up" like
the krogan it might make sense, but the Quarians were an advance
technologically savvy race. They had no reason to live in bubbles
because it's not that difficult, expensive, or unfeasible to create
proper vaccinations, especially in a future where you can create a
disease that alters the entire genetic code of a species (genophage).

Oh and you didn't break the thread I just need to dedicate some time to RL sometimes, lol.

[Zilod]

cos1ne wrote...
Yes but you seem to forget quarians were not isolated on one planet, but they had dozens of worlds spread over the galaxy plus a spot on the Citadel. Also they were highly technological and culturally advanced. This means that even if the 'natural antibiotics' by the plants were interrupted, they would have still had geneticists who could produce these same antibiotics. If you claim that they didn't have time to get samples, you don't think quarians would have taken precautions. A supernova could annhilate all life on Rannoch, they had to have had backups in labs or arboreums or even seed banks. Much like we humans have the world seed back in Svalbard.

sure but that doesnt mean that "few seeds" are enought to sustain a population of 17 million of people living in thousands of ships. also dont forget that quarians fled from a war they lost, maybe such banks got destroyed by the geths, maybe they had not any chance to recollect them.

also consider the lack of resources they suffer, it will make it difficult to develope ambitious projects that where possible pre war

also this way you can pretty much resolve the problem of the decay of immunity system in such a brief timeframe and for a population so big to have a good genetic diversity

[cos1ne]

Zilod wrote...

sure but that doesnt mean that "few seeds" are enought to sustain a population of 17 million of people living in thousands of ships. also dont forget that quarians fled from a war they lost, maybe such banks got destroyed by the geths, maybe they had not any chance to recollect them.

also consider the lack of resources they suffer, it will make it difficult to develope ambitious projects that where possible pre war

also this way you can pretty much resolve the problem of the decay of immunity system in such a brief timeframe and for a population so big to have a good genetic diversity

Not all of the banks should have been in quarian worlds. Like for instance how during the Chinese civil war and occupation by the Japanese, a university professor sent a huge catalogue full of samples of native and rare flora to a university in the US, that was returned after peace was established.

Therefore, there should have been samples spread out all over the galaxy and if the quarians desperately needed these to survive I'm certain the council races would have allowed them access. The first generation should have been all right to survive for a few years while scientists used cloning to create enough vaccines. I mean it doesn't take that many resources, a handful of companies make enough flu vaccines every year to supply 500 million and if worked to maximum capacity could produce 3 billion vaccines every year. And this is with current technology!

I mean if the quarians can dedicate an entire lab ship to studying geth, I'm certain that they would have decided to make a lab ship dedicated to making vaccines.

And like I said if you can't get native life from Rannoch or the colonies, grab some "foreign contaminants" from Palaven so that the quarians have an immunity to the Turian dextro-amino bugs so that it will only take them a year or so to re-adjust to the Rannoch bugs.

And if you say that no one would give any aid to the quarians after what they did, that makes absolutely no sense either, there would be some intergalactic Red Cross style organization that would help them out using whatever means possible. Heck, I'm almost positive the hanar Salvation Army would be more then happy to give them vaccination materials/facilities in exchange for a few talks about the enkindlers.

[Ieldra]

Good points, cos1ne.

Large parts of the timeline is complete nonsense anyway, so I just ignore it.

The other points are less obvious, so I don't mind them being ignored, but it would have made more sense to retcon the suits as a cultural custom left over from the need to wear a space suit on-board in the early time of the Migrant Fleet. With the instability of many quarian ships, it would even make sense to keep that custom.

As for being a writer, not a scientist, I think someone who writes SF stories should check up on the plausibility of his claims. Some miracles are necessary for the universe (FTL, eezo) and some I can accept for the sake of being cool (though with difficulty), but I resent needless implausibility coming from laziness and an unwillingness to take the science element of SF seriously.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 21 avril 2010 - 10:23 .

[Nu-Nu]

cos1ne wrote...

Nu-Nu wrote...
Times this over 15 generations, and all
immunity will be weaken considerably. They haven't evolve/de-evolve to
become weaker, their immune system just hasn't been tested or strengthen
through exposure or gain immunity from the mother.

They can also
cope with their homeworld because the germs there are beneficial to
them, on a symbiosis level they've come to rely on them but being
expelled means they're no longer exposed to these germs and without
those germs they get ill.

Just to reiterate the point,
why would the quarians not be exposed to these germs, they obviously
brought them aboard the ship, and if they someone managed to get rid of
the dangerous bugs, they still would have kept enough of the beneficial
ones to boost their immune systems. And if they didn't have access to
all of the "immune system building" contaminants,
they colonized other worlds. Just pick up germs from another world to
bolster their immune system, hell pick up some Palaven plants and get
everyone 'acclimated' to those, so that they at least have some immunity
and then they'll only have a short sickness period before
re-acclimating to Rannoch.

Well, the goal is to go back to their homeworld because they can survive there without suits, though it will take some time and they'll get a little bit sick but it won't be at dangerous levels, so they must still have apadtibility to those bacteria.  These friendly bacteria might need specific factors to survive and grow which can't be recreated on the fotillia, which is worn out and breaks constantly so it'll be hard to mantain these factors.   These special bacteria were rare on their homeworld, so they'll be even rarer on the foltilla, if they're there at all.

They've lost adaptability to alien bacteria which is not part of their natural immune/adapt system without these friendly bacteria.

[cos1ne]

The other points are less obvious, so I don't mind them being ignored,
but it would have made more sense to retcon the suits as a cultural
custom left over from the need to wear a space suit on-board in the
early time of the Migrant Fleet. With the instability of many quarian
ships, it would even make sense to keep that custom.

Actually the easiest thing to do to make quarians have to wear their suits all the time would be for them to breathe a different gas then humans. This would have been a far simpler and more palatable explanation, then their immune system. Heck you could still keep them as having a weaker immune system, just not one that is all zOMg!!! INSTANT DETH!!! when they take off their suit.

Technically if they breathed different air you could still have the romance, after all I hear hypoxia can heighten orgasm. And we all know Tali is willing to risk her life to get it on with Shep.

Modifié par cos1ne, 21 avril 2010 - 10:39 .

[Nibroc17]

"Quarian immune systems have always been comparatively weak, as pathogenic microbes were comparatively rare in their homeworld's biosphere"
Quote from Mass Effect Wiki on Quarians. so that kinda nulls your argument.

Modifié par Nibroc17, 21 avril 2010 - 10:54 .

[Heart Collector]

Weak immune systems is just propaganda spread by The Man (possibly Qwib-qwib) to keep the Quarian people down dude, and to control them through fear, and keep selling 'em drugs to oil the greedy corporate machine. Far out (in space) man!

Seriously though, I liked the original post. It's always fun to discuss stuff like this. I sometimes feel that the Quarians are actually really paranoid hypochondriacs, and really often make themselves sick!

[Anacronian Stryx]

yup there weren't even any insectoid life on the Quarian homeworld, So one of the primary carrier of diseases are lost as well.

[tanarri23]

A good enough explanation would be that quarians always wore the suits when interacting with aliens or visiting other planets, because their immune systems' response to contaminants was genetically pre-programmed rather than learned, non-adaptable and prone to anaphylactic shock when exposed to unfamiliar contaminants. Nothing some genetic therapy couldn't fix, but...anyway, the canon is pretty much the opposite, so let's try something else.

Maybe it wasn't originally about germs or allergies. Most quarian ships are old, scavenged, refitted and generally not in the best of shapes, so when a catastrophic failure can happen anytime it would make sense to wear an environmental suit that makes sure you survive that toxic air, extreme temperature or exposure to vacuum for long enough for another ship to rescue you. A few ship failures that kill everyone on board, and the already decimated species would get paranoid enough to wear the suits full-time. After that, it doesn't take any genetic mutation to mess up the immune system - if a child is put into a protective bubble the moment it's born, it will survive if air processing fails...but it won't be exposed to contaminants enough for its immune system to learn what's dangerous and what's not, and will end up allergic to pretty much everything. And since reproduction's not a small risk for adults who are already allergic to everything, guess the quarians just had to pick the lesser of two evils.

Modifié par tanarri23, 21 avril 2010 - 11:13 .

[skl]

Ok, if I squint hard I can ignore the Quarian immune system most of the time. But what bothers me to no end is all the "dextro-DNA" talk. I know I'm just being picky, I realize they meant the amino acids, but can we please not involve DNA? The genetic code would be exactly the same for both stereoisomers of an aa - therefore NO difference in DNA. It's just that, on a given world, like the Quarian home world, at some point R-amino acids became the dominant form, so they were predominantly used in protein synthesis in most life forms there...

[Lemonwizard]

skl wrote...

Ok, if I squint hard I can ignore the Quarian immune system most of the time. But what bothers me to no end is all the "dextro-DNA" talk. I know I'm just being picky, I realize they meant the amino acids, but can we please not involve DNA? The genetic code would be exactly the same for both stereoisomers of an aa - therefore NO difference in DNA. It's just that, on a given world, like the Quarian home world, at some point R-amino acids became the dominant form, so they were predominantly used in protein synthesis in most life forms there...

Think of it this way: your average bartender probably doesn't know jack **** about the more complicated workings of biology. Why should Turian bartenders be any different? All they need to know is "Turians and Quarians drink this, everybody else drinks that". If you think of it in the context of "Bioware has created a world and in that world there actually are people who are not doctors or great intellectuals" rather than "Bioware made up some BS!", it becomes much easier to accept.

[skl]

True, true... I still laugh every time I hear it

[Sigma Tauri]

Lemonwizard wrote...
Think of it this way: your average bartender probably doesn't know jack **** about the more complicated workings of biology. Why should Turian bartenders be any different? All they need to know is "Turians and Quarians drink this, everybody else drinks that". If you think of it in the context of "Bioware has created a world and in that world there actually are people who are not doctors or great intellectuals" rather than "Bioware made up some BS!", it becomes much easier to accept.

So...lesson here is ignore the bartenders. One thing I noticed is people actually learn from what Bioware says.

Modifié par monkeycamoran, 21 avril 2010 - 12:24 .