49 réponses à ce sujet

[errant_knight]

Sixth Goul wrote...

I get the Loghain part, but everything else shouldn't be a surprise.If his approval is in the negatives shouldn't his dialogue change?If I remember correctly, when you say you'll stand by Anora as her consort he still says I should make him king,like he didn't hear what I just said. My pc even said "It about time" when is Anora wanted him executed and he was surprised. My point is at some point during the Landsmeet he shouldn't be surprised if your approve is in the negatives.

Actually, I agree with you in a way. It's a somewhat clumsy mechanic that prevents him from leaving before landsmeet, but he shouldn't be that surprised. He's not actually stupid. On the other hand, it speaks to the nature of the character. He wouldn't dream of killing someone he'd fought beside, particularly a fellow warden, no matter how much he disliked their choices or the way they treated him, not unless they commited an act of such personal betrayal that it couldn't be ignored (ie Loghain). I think one of the reasons he won't fight with Loghain as a warden is his unwillingness to give him that kind of loyalty. Anyway, it's something that's so far from possible in his world view that he doesn't believe the PC would go there either, no matter how ugly their behavior in other areas.

Modifié par errant_knight, 22 avril 2010 - 06:25 .

[Urshakk]

So let's assume for a moment he wanted to do something, what could he do? Nothing, you and Anora are both against him, and the Landsmeet will abide by the outcome. He is by himself at this point, no one is supporting him, there is nothing he could do anyway.

Modifié par Urshakk, 22 avril 2010 - 07:00 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Urshakk wrote...

So let's assume for a moment he wanted to do something, what could he do? Nothing, you and Anora are both against him, and the Landsmeet will abide by the outcome. He is by himself at this point, no one is supporting him, there is nothing he could do anyway.

He could stfu and remember his place, before declaring his intent to desert..

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 22 avril 2010 - 07:03 .

[Urshakk]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
He could stfu and remember his place

That would be classified as doing nothing.

[Sarah1281]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Urshakk wrote...

So let's assume for a moment he wanted to do something, what could he do? Nothing, you and Anora are both against him, and the Landsmeet will abide by the outcome. He is by himself at this point, no one is supporting him, there is nothing he could do anyway.

He could stfu and remember his place, before declaring his intent to desert..

Yeah, that was a really stupid move on Alistair's part. I haven't finished a playthrough where Anora was on the throne without Alistair and Loghain died but apparently Alistair stays in your party then and if Anora calls for his execution you can talk her down (although if Loghain's dead, you're a girl, and Alistair is executed you couldn't do the DR...does Anora only want Alistair dead if her father's life is at stake?) so if Loghain lived and Alistair really had his heart set on leaving he should have just stayed quiet and snuck out of Denerim at night.

[OrlesianWardenCommander]

Sixth Goul wrote...

I get the Loghain part, but everything else shouldn't be a surprise.If his approval is in the negatives shouldn't his dialogue change?If I remember correctly, when you say you'll stand by Anora as her consort he still says I should make him king,like he didn't hear what I just said. My pc even said "It about time" when is Anora wanted him executed and he was surprised. My point is at some point during the Landsmeet he shouldn't be surprised if your approve is in the negatives.

although you said you didn't give a damn about the grey wardens and what not and you hate him hes still views you as there leader and and fellow grey warden and hes suprised that you would agree to his excution and write him off so easily. After you've spent a few months helping save ferelden but it comes down to what everyone else is saying you can only have so many dialog options.

[Urshakk]

Sarah1281 wrote...
Yeah, that was a really stupid move on Alistair's part. I haven't finished a playthrough where Anora was on the throne without Alistair and Loghain died but apparently Alistair stays in your party then and if Anora calls for his execution you can talk her down (although if Loghain's dead, you're a girl, and Alistair is executed you couldn't do the DR...does Anora only want Alistair dead if her father's life is at stake?) so if Loghain lived and Alistair really had his heart set on leaving he should have just stayed quiet and snuck out of Denerim at night.

She doesn't call for his execution in that scenario, she will ask him to relinquish his claim to the throne for him and his heirs in front of everyone in the landsmeet, which he will gladly do.

[Sarah1281]

Urshakk wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
Yeah, that was a really stupid move on Alistair's part. I haven't finished a playthrough where Anora was on the throne without Alistair and Loghain died but apparently Alistair stays in your party then and if Anora calls for his execution you can talk her down (although if Loghain's dead, you're a girl, and Alistair is executed you couldn't do the DR...does Anora only want Alistair dead if her father's life is at stake?) so if Loghain lived and Alistair really had his heart set on leaving he should have just stayed quiet and snuck out of Denerim at night.

She doesn't call for his execution in that scenario, she will ask him to relinquish his claim to the throne for him and his heirs in front of everyone in the landsmeet, which he will gladly do.

...So she's okay with him having just murdered her father but not with him asking you to do it?

[OrlesianWardenCommander]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Urshakk wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
Yeah, that was a really stupid move on Alistair's part. I haven't finished a playthrough where Anora was on the throne without Alistair and Loghain died but apparently Alistair stays in your party then and if Anora calls for his execution you can talk her down (although if Loghain's dead, you're a girl, and Alistair is executed you couldn't do the DR...does Anora only want Alistair dead if her father's life is at stake?) so if Loghain lived and Alistair really had his heart set on leaving he should have just stayed quiet and snuck out of Denerim at night.

She doesn't call for his execution in that scenario, she will ask him to relinquish his claim to the throne for him and his heirs in front of everyone in the landsmeet, which he will gladly do.

...So she's okay with him having just murdered her father but not with him asking you to do it?

She says somthing like her father accepted his fate and thus she see's no reason to seek revenge.

[Sarah1281]

OrlesianWardenCommander wrote...



She says somthing like her father accepted his fate and thus she see's no reason to seek revenge.

No reason to seek vengeance on him for killing for father because he accepted it but there IS reason when her father still lives? She's really not all there, is she?

[Urshakk]

Well, she says, "Even I know my father must pay for his crimes, though I will not be glad to see it." As for the latter, I think its more of a last minute attempt to try and save her father anyway.

Modifié par Urshakk, 22 avril 2010 - 07:28 .

[Sarah1281]

Urshakk wrote...

Well, she says, "Even I know my father must pay for his crimes, though I will not be glad to see it." As for the latter, I think its more of a last minute attempt to try and save her father anyway.

She doesn't call for his execution until she's safely on the throne and not engaged to Alistair so her father's safe at that point. Unless she thinks Alistair will snap and murder him on the spot or at some point before leaving Denerim?

[OrlesianWardenCommander]

Well Loghains still is her dad if that was my dad and he did all the things loghain did i'd still try to save him and say go to hell alistar thats for sure.

Modifié par OrlesianWardenCommander, 22 avril 2010 - 07:35 .

[Urshakk]

She only calls for his execution if he tries to take the throne when you spare Loghain to get him executed. If she doesn't, then that means you killed Loghain and Al is happy.

[OrlesianWardenCommander]

Come to think of it that'd be a badass origins being the son or daughter of loghain that'd make the landsmeet even more interesting and conterversal

[Sarah1281]

There's no way Duncan would be stupid enough to try and conscript Loghain's kid and the political ramifications would be too great to allow them to join with Loghain's blessing (fat chance). Seriously, if Duncan tried conscripting Loghain's child, do you really think Loghain wouldn't arrange for him to be killed?

[KnightofPhoenix]

What would have been interesting is to make our HN hear about Loghain a lot and almost idolate him in the origin. That's how I RPed my PC. Loghain is a larger than life figure in Ferelden.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 22 avril 2010 - 07:42 .

[Sarah1281]

I wish you would have gotten a chance to argue with him about Loghain. You don't even need to be able to change Alistair's mind if he's that set on projecting all of his survivor's guilt on Loghain but just passively accepting Alistair starting to think Loghain is evil personified when you might very well think he's a hero and then turning around and the end and sparing him...no wonder Alistair's confused. Still doesn't excuse him, though.

[OrlesianWardenCommander]

Well if he is of a certant age hes either going to be in the unit Maric's sheild with his father or out making his own choices maybe being found by duncan someother way. Loghain would see his son a spy for Orlais and then give him reason to leave you there with the rest of the wardens at ostagar. Not saying i'd make sence but it'd be interesting to play the landsmeet as one of loghains very own children.

[OrlesianWardenCommander]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I wish you would have gotten a chance to argue with him about Loghain. You don't even need to be able to change Alistair's mind if he's that set on projecting all of his survivor's guilt on Loghain but just passively accepting Alistair starting to think Loghain is evil personified when you might very well think he's a hero and then turning around and the end and sparing him...no wonder Alistair's confused. Still doesn't excuse him, though.

Its just like now days fame can be taken away faster then it can be earned.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I wish you would have gotten a chance to argue with him about Loghain. You don't even need to be able to change Alistair's mind if he's that set on projecting all of his survivor's guilt on Loghain but just passively accepting Alistair starting to think Loghain is evil personified when you might very well think he's a hero and then turning around and the end and sparing him...no wonder Alistair's confused. Still doesn't excuse him, though.

What I REALLY wanted is to slap some sense in him (literally) during the Landsmeet. If I could have convinced him to stop being an idiot, I would have. I take no pleasure in having him executed.

[Sarah1281]

OrlesianWardenCommander wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

I wish you would have gotten a chance to argue with him about Loghain. You don't even need to be able to change Alistair's mind if he's that set on projecting all of his survivor's guilt on Loghain but just passively accepting Alistair starting to think Loghain is evil personified when you might very well think he's a hero and then turning around and the end and sparing him...no wonder Alistair's confused. Still doesn't excuse him, though.

Its just like now days fame can be taken away faster then it can be earned.

True but I'm still not certain that I blame him for Ostagar. Cailan made his own choices, the Beacon was late, and his men probably would have been slaughtered. It's what he did afterwards (poisoning Eamon, locking up Templars, selling elves, letting Howe do whatever he wanted to whoever he wanted, sending assassins after you, blaming you for Ostagar, outlawing Wardens) that were his real crimes and we know none of that when Alistair decides Loghain's evil. We don't even know that Loghain waited until the Beacon was lit to retreat because all we know is that Loghain didn't charge.

[Urshakk]

OrlesianWardenCommander wrote...
Its just like now days fame can be taken away faster then it can be earned.

Indeed, it only lasts till you do something wrong, then people enjoy tearing you down just as fast.

[CalJones]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I wish you would have gotten a chance to argue with him about Loghain. You don't even need to be able to change Alistair's mind if he's that set on projecting all of his survivor's guilt on Loghain but just passively accepting Alistair starting to think Loghain is evil personified when you might very well think he's a hero and then turning around and the end and sparing him...no wonder Alistair's confused. Still doesn't excuse him, though.

This. Alistair is determined that Loghain is the bad guy while you're still at Flemmeth's. After, once he's declared the Wardens traitors and himself regent, I can see how that would look bad to a Warden, but prior to that, the only thing you know is that he didn't respond to the signal. You also know that the signal was late. If my character had grown up hearing about Loghain the hero, then he or she would almost certainly question Alistair's deduction that Loghain was the villain. Once you'd got to Lothering, a character who actually idolised Loghain would also be justified in wondering if the Wardens were indeed to blame, given that he or she had only joined hours before the battle itself and knew nothing about them, other than they'd been exiled from Fereldan for some crime or other.

(I was also frustrated that I couldn't talk back to Teagan and Eamon but, well, you can't really put in a dialogue choice for everything, I suppose).

Modifié par CalJones, 22 avril 2010 - 08:51 .