234 réponses à ce sujet

[Aisynia]

He's DEFINITELY NOT MY TYPE.



I mean.. nice guy.. but not my type.



See, I like the nice guys, I like the chivalry, I like the politeness.. II even like the fact he practically worships the ground you walk on. It's.. I don't know if I can call it pettiness.. bitterness maybe.



He HATES LOGHAIN more than he LOVES the PC. If you choose to have a MERCIFUL HEART, regardless of what Loghain has done.. it's over. He abandons your love automatically, and that's it.



How ****ing selfish, unreasonable and.. pathetic. The fact he can become a pathetic wandering drunk after that.. just wow.



A visual representation of my respect for him at that moment.



Zevran on the other hand, is just icky.



So 90% of the time, I romance Leliana. Since I like women somewhat more than men on average, that works out fine I suppose, but I hate not feeling like I have a genuine choice

[Sarah1281]

Gilsa wrote...

I wouldn't say that I like Alistair less and less with each playthrough, but it's easy for me to tune him out. I'm only interested in romancing him on a dwarf noble.

Why only on a dwarf noble? My DN is actually the character most likely to realize that Alistair's in denial about the throne and what a bad idea it is to get together. Do you go to Redcliffe last or something?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Massamies wrote...

Well, considering what kind of efforts putting down previous blights took, imagining that Ferelden would put one down by herself, without Grey Warden or any extra help from any other faction or country, and actually survive strong enough to keep Orlais out if they actually wanted to invade, was not understandable miscalculation.

That's what ends up happening. And Loghain did try to reach out to other factions. He planned to have uldred free all the mages so they can fight, but Uldred messed up. And he sent an ambassador to Orzammar, but king Endrin died.

It was not clear it was a blight until it was too late for Loghain to alter his course. Initially, no one thought it was a blight except Duncan. Not even Cailan did.  

[ejoslin]

Aisynia wrote...

He's DEFINITELY NOT MY TYPE.

I mean.. nice guy.. but not my type.

See, I like the nice guys, I like the chivalry, I like the politeness.. II even like the fact he practically worships the ground you walk on. It's.. I don't know if I can call it pettiness.. bitterness maybe.

He HATES LOGHAIN more than he LOVES the PC. If you choose to have a MERCIFUL HEART, regardless of what Loghain has done.. it's over. He abandons your love automatically, and that's it.

How ****ing selfish, unreasonable and.. pathetic. The fact he can become a pathetic wandering drunk after that.. just wow.

A visual representation of my respect for him at that moment.

Zevran on the other hand, is just icky.

So 90% of the time, I romance Leliana. Since I like women somewhat more than men on average, that works out fine I suppose, but I hate not feeling like I have a genuine choice

He is?  I have icky taste   But oh so icky it is!  I prefer to think of it as down and dirty, but that's just me!

Alistair?  His ideals are Revenge > Duty > Warden.  That's ok.  It makes him seem human.  But I generally don't romance him.

[Addai]

errant_knight wrote...

I don't think age is the problem. I like younger men. Always have. Well, except when I was young enough that younger meant teenagers....

I'm 38 and generally go for older men IRL.  I just like a well-written, dramatic love story and all of the game's qualify, though I can't speak for Leliana's since I haven't done that.  I can say that I am equally drawn in by Alistair's, Zevran's and Morrigan's Warden romances when I'm playing them.

[Aisynia]

ejoslin wrote...

Aisynia wrote...

He's DEFINITELY NOT MY TYPE.

I mean.. nice guy.. but not my type.

See, I like the nice guys, I like the chivalry, I like the politeness.. II even like the fact he practically worships the ground you walk on. It's.. I don't know if I can call it pettiness.. bitterness maybe.

He HATES LOGHAIN more than he LOVES the PC. If you choose to have a MERCIFUL HEART, regardless of what Loghain has done.. it's over. He abandons your love automatically, and that's it.

How ****ing selfish, unreasonable and.. pathetic. The fact he can become a pathetic wandering drunk after that.. just wow.

A visual representation of my respect for him at that moment.

Zevran on the other hand, is just icky.

So 90% of the time, I romance Leliana. Since I like women somewhat more than men on average, that works out fine I suppose, but I hate not feeling like I have a genuine choice

He is?  I have icky taste   But oh so icky it is!  I prefer to think of it as down and dirty, but that's just me!

Alistair?  His ideals are Revenge > Duty > Warden.  That's ok.  It makes him seem human.  But I generally don't romance him.

He doesn't take sex seriously enough. Even then, I might be able to deal with that except he's slept with like 50,000 people. Can't imagine the diseases he's carrying. His mother wasn't the only **** in his family, that's all I'm saying.

[Nonvita]

Aisynia wrote...

He doesn't take sex seriously enough. Even then, I might be able to deal with that except he's slept with like 50,000 people. Can't imagine the diseases he's carrying. His mother wasn't the only **** in his family, that's all I'm saying.

Well, then you haven't tried getting to know him at all. If you pay attention to the circumstances that he was forced into, it's understandable why sex is what it is to him. And his view of it does change if you play through the entire romance. There's more to him than just the shallow picture on the surface.

[Gilsa]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Gilsa wrote...

I wouldn't say that I like Alistair less and less with each playthrough, but it's easy for me to tune him out. I'm only interested in romancing him on a dwarf noble.

Why only on a dwarf noble? My DN is actually the character most likely to realize that Alistair's in denial about the throne and what a bad idea it is to get together. Do you go to Redcliffe last or something?

No. You and I view the game through different lenses and have different ways of playing our nobles. I like being the commander and I like taking care of my crew (same role as Commander Shepard). Being in line for the throne herself, I understood Alistair's reluctance to that whole political game and she aimed to shield him from it. I did fail on some level to look out for the well-being of my crew when Alistair reeled in shock, but I made a tactical decision and stuck with it. I don't romance him on any other characters because I'm selfish. Only the best for my dwarf and thus I don't want to share him with the elves or the humans.   (I pair up my elves with Zevran anyway.)

If I want a relationship with Alistair that actually survives into a sequel, then I'll make a second dwarf noble for that reason alone, but having an imaginary relationship is not reason enough to actually play the game. I'm waiting on any bioware news that indicates that Alistair will continue to be a vital part of sequels before I even lift a finger. If he is just going to be cameo-boy from now on, I'm fine with closing the book as it is now. Make sense?

Modifié par Gilsa, 22 avril 2010 - 11:44 .

[Reaverwind]

Tirigon wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

] Well that's highly irresponsible. Feeding all of Ferelden to darkspawn because you're pissed at one guy? I suppose since Howe is a sociopath who doesn't even pretend to be a good guy (except in the Origin a little and even then he insults Cailan and if you talk to his guards they say how important it is that they no who you are which kind of freaked me out the first time I played it) he has to die and so it won't really be an issue and you'll almost have to side with Alistair on his desire for vengeance or end up a hypocrite.

Well is that so? First, I would not feed all of Ferelden to the Darkspawn - I´d only kill half the nobility before proceeding to the final battle. And after seeing what the likes of Howe and Vaughan do I really fail to see how that would harm Ferelden. Hell, every dead noble is probably an improvement for the biggest part of the Fereldan citizens...
(On a side note, in Howe´s case Riordan even says that his death has produced "no small amount of cheer among the citizens")

Secondly, would it be so bad to let Loghain do this on his own? I mean, if the Loghain-fans are right he will prove his skill and defeat the blight alone, if not.....
The Grey Wardens save everything, right? In this case a country; a "true" Grey Warden wouldn´t care much. Riordan even says that if the situation in Ferelden can´t be solved they will prepare to stop the Blight after Ferelden is defeated, so the possibility to let Ferelden fall wouldn´t be so far away from the Warden-way.

Writing Fereldan off would have been the smart thing to do, but doesn't make for a dramatic enough story, I suppose. Were I the Warden-commander, I'd be drawing up the battle lines at the border, and maybe even employ a scorched-earth policy - on Fereldan's soil, of course. Loghain obviously failed at history - otherwise he'd have realised that occupation  by Orlais was the least of Fereldan's concerns.

[Wynne]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I don't dislike him but his habit of withholding important information, insistence of living in denial, and his refusal to put practicality and saving Ferelden over his grudge against Loghain has definitely lessened his appeal for me. I understand he has his reasons for this and they are decent reasons but there's only so many times I can listen to him accusing me of being a horrible person for marrying him to Anora and recruiting Loghain before I stop caring that he's upset.

This.

I love the boy, I truly do... but he really is a boy. Even if you harden him. Somewhere along the way, I get so weary of his attitude and I just want to slice open his liver. I love to DEATH the voice acting, I love the writing, but I hate the fact that there is no way to make him see reason. He is just so selfish and short-sighted it makes me sick if I think about it too much.

I tend to not romance him anymore. I just pine for Cullen/Teagan (and now Nathaniel as well) or stick with Zevran, who likes you better the more you have sex with him. Gotta love a man like that.

Heh, I think I remember Dieter saying in London that he liked to fireball Alistair. I remember being horrified. Now, I'm basically like, "Yeah, it eases the pain a little." I hate him less for being a traitor and a hypocrite when I fireball him a few times.

Totally a love/hate thing for me with Alistair. I don't have a thing for older guys at ALL (women live on average 5-10 years longer than men, and living roughly a decade on my own in the last years of my life is an unbearable thought for me, plus age is no indicator of maturity anyway) but I did love the personalities of Canderous and Loghain quite heartily; I love grey characters, so personality-wise I enjoy the thought of a romance with somebody more like one of them. Nathaniel would have been perfect in that regard; if only there were a little more content... *sigh* Duncan's personality was great, too. And I love what David Gaider said ( forums.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic.html )  about a human-hating elf and a human noble. I would love to play a female human noble romancing a male human-hater; ohhh, but that would be spicy and savory. I love being the one to try to redeem her image and overcome prejudice.

Now I'm rambling, but really... Alistair is a boy playing knight, Zevran is a teenager just learning about real love. I am more attracted to the mage type (heh, computer wizards!) in real life, though. A bitter, human-hating male elven apostate mage sort of like a cross between Nathaniel and Velanna would be a dream come true for me. Or maybe a dwarf-hating one, because I love playing a dwarf, but that doesn't really fit the lore. Not of Ferelden, at least. *sigh* Neither do dwarven mages. If only. I dream of a day when we meet a land where dwarves have long lived on the surface and can be mages after all. Wow, okay, still rambling.

Anyway, I love Alistair to pieces in a bitter sort of way, but I still also hate his guts and moderately enjoy setting him on fire, if that makes any sense.

[Tirigon]

Sarah1281 wrote...

 You wouldn't abandon Ferelden to its fate if Howe became a Warden? Then you're not doing what Alistair does. If Loghain becomes a Warden he either dies, becomes King but stays out of the Blight, or leaves Ferelden. Either way, he doesn't even try to help and even if he gets executed he still tried to abandon them.

True, but I honestly don´t care. Half of your party isn´t in the final battle anyways.......

Aside from the fact that you're mad noble-murdering tendencies is no way to get the Ferelden army on your side (and they do make up the bulk of the troops) everyone's going to hate you afterwards and good luck keeping the candidate you endorsed on the throne so hello more civil war.

The Fereldan army sucks anyways. And noone is going to hate me:
Common people - give them some food and entertainment.
Elves: Dales for them.
Mages: Independence from the circle.

And even Loghain's most ardent defenders, unless I'm much mistaken, don't believe he can stop the Blight without the Wardens, if only because someone has to make a demon baby/sacrifice themselves to destroy the Archdemon.

So I understand Loghain does fail after all.

Riordan says no one thinks the situation in Ferelden can be salvaged because they destroyed their army and are fighting a civil war instead of acknowledging the Blight. You leaving just when all the pieces are coming together and you have a new army because you're pissed at Howe? Hardly 'true' warden behavior. If it had been an option Riordan might have suggested you recruit him, too.

Again wrong. I´d help them, but first I´d publicly executr Howe.

Leaving people to die at the hands of the darkspawn just because you don't get your way concerning one man...how can you even begin to justify that?

If they side with me, I help. If they think Loghain is the better leader he should care for them. Why should I?

Modifié par Tirigon, 23 avril 2010 - 12:52 .

[Aisynia]

Nonvita wrote...

Aisynia wrote...

He doesn't take sex seriously enough. Even then, I might be able to deal with that except he's slept with like 50,000 people. Can't imagine the diseases he's carrying. His mother wasn't the only **** in his family, that's all I'm saying.

Well, then you haven't tried getting to know him at all. If you pay attention to the circumstances that he was forced into, it's understandable why sex is what it is to him. And his view of it does change if you play through the entire romance. There's more to him than just the shallow picture on the surface.

I've done his romance all the way through. Opinion remains. Sorry.

[Malkavianqueen]

I really disliked Alistair my first play through. Then again, I was biased, playing as a Dalish elf!



And, I was one of the few people who originally romanced Zevran first! So then, my next play through as a Human Noble I tried the Alistair romance...Ugh! I found it to be way too sappy, and just ended up comparing it to Zevran's in the end...



Soo, I really can't say I care for the character. It also doesn't help that I read the Stolen Throne/The Calling beforehand, making me a Loghain fangirl. And I really hated Maric, so when he claimed to be Maric's son, I could definitely see the similarities!

[ejoslin]

Aisynia wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

He is?  I have icky taste   But oh so icky it is!  I prefer to think of it as down and dirty, but that's just me!

Alistair?  His ideals are Revenge > Duty > Warden.  That's ok.  It makes him seem human.  But I generally don't romance him.

He doesn't take sex seriously enough. Even then, I might be able to deal with that except he's slept with like 50,000 people. Can't imagine the diseases he's carrying. His mother wasn't the only **** in his family, that's all I'm saying.

Until, of course, sex takes on so much meaning for him he can't have it be casual any more.  It becomes VERY serious to him when it becomes mixed up with love.

Zevran's romance really does have some very unexpected things in it. 

Edit: and of course he was what you say, and more.  It's how he was taught to be since he was born.  What's amazing is that he gets beyond that -- that he actually DOES fall in love, and that sex takes on all sorts of meaning that he has to figure out.

Modifié par ejoslin, 23 avril 2010 - 02:59 .

[CalJones]

I think the chance to boss Howe around would have been rather fun, actually. But the difference is, Howe is unrepentant and as such, irredeemable. Loghain is basically a decent sort who has always tried to do the right thing, but his idea of what is right has been distorted by the events of his past. He's basically broken, and he no longer has anyone around to help humanise him (Maric, Rowan, perhaps his wife though we know next to nothing about her) so he falls pretty hard. Once he knows you have the best interests of Fereldan at heart, he'll do anything for you. Howe, though, is only out for himself. Trying to handle a Warden Howe would be a big challenge and I'm not sure you wouldn't wake up at camp to find Backbiter buried in your spine. Still, if Riordan or Alistair insisted on it, I wouldn't abandon Fereldan because of it. I'd just make sure Sten guarded his tent.



Re: the younger man thing, I don't think it's just that. Depending on personality and life experience you can be pretty mature at 21 or utterly juvenile at 45. Alistair, though, is young and feels like it. I don't really blame him for that, due to his upbringing - he might be a lot more grounded were Eamon not an utter dickwad. But as he stands he's like a puppy - cute and adorable, but once they start whining at night and constantly weeing behind the sofa, the squee factor wears off pretty fast.

[Addai]

CalJones wrote...
 But as he stands he's like a puppy - cute and adorable, but once they start whining at night and constantly weeing behind the sofa, the squee factor wears off pretty fast.

I simply don't see this.  Alistair doesn't whine any more than any other of your companion NPCs when it comes to their "issues."

*shrug*  To each her own.

[CalJones]

No I'm not saying Alistair is whining - just saying that he has flaws that become less tolerable over time the same way that a puppy quickly gets a lot less cute once he starts keeping you awake at night, shredding your shoes and leaving puddles in unexpected places. I don't think you can deny that Alistair is quite puppy-ish, though.
(I'm more of a cat person, though. Which is why I prefer Zevran. He is Puss from Shrek, after all!)

[Lowenhart]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
If my main playthrough was a HN and I spent the game plotting Howe's death or a CE that was pissed about the whole slavery thing then maybe I'd have to be more tolerant to avoid being a hypocrite.

Would a HN abandon his nation if Howe was made a Warden? If not, then it's not hypocracy at all to be revolted from Alistair's tantrum.

Theres a huge difference thou KoP in the fact that Loghain did what he thought was right for Ferelden, and show penance for what he has done, However Howe only ever did anything in his own interest and what would give him more influence and power, and he never showed any remorse for anything he did.

EDIT: Except Cailin he never showed remorse for letting Cailin die, but i suppose from his view point i wouldnt feel guilty about it either, he rejected all veteran Advice from Both Duncan and Loghain, he was willing to send dozen of soldier into a massacre and certain death where he knew could be no victory, for his own personal glory and some place in history as a Hero and legend, when he as kind swore a oath ro protect his people, i have no respect for such a king and would honestly felt no remorse aswell about it.

Modifié par Lowenhart, 23 avril 2010 - 08:08 .

[webbedfeet]

Alistair makes a great best friend/exasperatingly adorable little brother for my male characters, I find. This is true even if said PC is younger (in my head) than Alistair's apparent age.They, with the exception of my Mahariel (who hated everyone with flat ears and only mellows out way later) tends to be very fond of him for some reason. Even the mage guy ended up cutting him more slack than he would have otherwise, Templar reasoning and all----I'm guessing it's the puppy look appeal. All of them (except Mahariel) loved dogs. The girl PCs, though....I have fewer of them, but they are usually not interested in romance. Or if they do, they pair up with Leli or developing an unrequited crush on Bann Teagan. I find this rather amusing.

Me personally? I like Alistair as a character, although there are times when he could be somewhat boring. His jokes are fun, but his angst is a bit been there, done that, and he seems to concentrate more on his bastard story than the darkspawn threat when we're supposed to be the only two Wardens left dammit. I would've held strategic meetings more often were I in his stead. Or my Warden. But I suppose that's why he made the Warden the team leader. Loved Alistair lots the first time, interest died down in following playthroughs. I think it's because, unlike the other characters, the interesting conflict inside his personality is never really confronted and resolved, even if he's hardened.

For romancing.....ahhh, I suppose my RL preferences do play a role. I prefer someone who starts a conversation by discussing poetry over football jokes, shall we say. Doesn't have to be particularly highbrow poetry, either! (A perfect fit would be a mage-types where we can discuss the Fade and the properties of burning a darkspawn's face off til morning----but eh, we can't have everything.)

Modifié par webbedfeet, 23 avril 2010 - 08:57 .

[Aisynia]

Accumulated response to several posts..

This is why I like Anders so much more than Alistair. They are both witty, and funny, and joke around, but I think the huge difference is that Alistair is a BOY while Anders is a MAN.

When I'm going for a male, I want a man, not a boy.

Alistair was raised in the Chantry, but he never actually grew up. I mean, I understand his situation, but he never really gained any amount of maturity and he's barely a step above Ser Jory on the sliding scale of idealism versus cynicism.

Worse yet, on the maturity scale, he seemed to have taken "Alistair, look out for yourself more" as "Alistair, be a selifsh ******" instead of "grow up".

*sigh*

Modifié par Aisynia, 23 avril 2010 - 09:28 .

[OldMan91]

Alistair was raised in the Chantry, but he never actually grew up. I mean, I understand his situation, but he never really gained any amount of maturity and he's barely a step above Ser Jory on the sliding scale of idealism versus cynicism.



Worse yet, on the maturity scale, he seemed to have taken "Alistair, look out for yourself more" as "Alistair, be a selifsh ******" instead of "grow up".



*sigh*

Is being cynical a sign of maturity though? I really doubt it.

[Aisynia]

OldMan91 wrote...

Alistair was raised in the Chantry, but he never actually grew up. I mean, I understand his situation, but he never really gained any amount of maturity and he's barely a step above Ser Jory on the sliding scale of idealism versus cynicism.

Worse yet, on the maturity scale, he seemed to have taken "Alistair, look out for yourself more" as "Alistair, be a selifsh ******" instead of "grow up".

*sigh*

Is being cynical a sign of maturity though? I really doubt it.

You're taking me out of context. I mean that Alistair sees the Wardens as the big shiny heroes riding griffons, and not for what they really are.. To quote Loghain, we must attend to reality. I think what I'm trying to say is that he is amazingly naive.

I think it's the one thing that I hate the most about Alistair is his response to sparing Loghain, it's what hangs me up constantly.

[ejoslin]

Aisynia wrote...

Nonvita wrote...

Aisynia wrote...

He doesn't take sex seriously enough. Even then, I might be able to deal with that except he's slept with like 50,000 people. Can't imagine the diseases he's carrying. His mother wasn't the only **** in his family, that's all I'm saying.

Well, then you haven't tried getting to know him at all. If you pay attention to the circumstances that he was forced into, it's understandable why sex is what it is to him. And his view of it does change if you play through the entire romance. There's more to him than just the shallow picture on the surface.

I've done his romance all the way through. Opinion remains. Sorry.

Out of curiosity, how can the opinion remain after he basically tells you he can't have sex with you if you don't love him?  And in order to keep the romance alive he insists on some sort of commitment for the future? He does take sex seriously at the end.  And it surprises him more than anyone.

Modifié par ejoslin, 23 avril 2010 - 11:12 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Lowenhart wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
If my main playthrough was a HN and I spent the game plotting Howe's death or a CE that was pissed about the whole slavery thing then maybe I'd have to be more tolerant to avoid being a hypocrite.

Would a HN abandon his nation if Howe was made a Warden? If not, then it's not hypocracy at all to be revolted from Alistair's tantrum.

Theres a huge difference thou KoP in the fact that Loghain did what he thought was right for Ferelden, and show penance for what he has done, However Howe only ever did anything in his own interest and what would give him more influence and power, and he never showed any remorse for anything he did.

Of course there is a huge difference between Howe and Loghain. But my point was this. Would an HN allow vengeance to cloud reason and would he abandon his nation because of one man?
If he wouldn't do so, then it's not hypocritical to despise Alistair's actions. And the HN has A LOT more reason to hate Howe.