234 réponses à ce sujet

[ejoslin]

EDit: Crap, wrong place. sorry, nothing to see here!

Modifié par ejoslin, 23 avril 2010 - 11:36 .

[Aisynia]

ejoslin wrote...

Aisynia wrote...

Nonvita wrote...

Aisynia wrote...

He doesn't take sex seriously enough. Even then, I might be able to deal with that except he's slept with like 50,000 people. Can't imagine the diseases he's carrying. His mother wasn't the only **** in his family, that's all I'm saying.

Well, then you haven't tried getting to know him at all. If you pay attention to the circumstances that he was forced into, it's understandable why sex is what it is to him. And his view of it does change if you play through the entire romance. There's more to him than just the shallow picture on the surface.

I've done his romance all the way through. Opinion remains. Sorry.

Out of curiosity, how can the opinion remain after he basically tells you he can't have sex with you if you don't love him?  And in order to keep the romance alive he insists on some sort of commitment for the future? He does take sex seriously at the end.  And it surprises him more than anyone.

History is history, and it can't be ignored.

I would never, ever have sex with someone like Zevran.

Modifié par Aisynia, 23 avril 2010 - 01:14 .

[tmp7704]

Lowenhart wrote...

EDIT: Except Cailin he never showed remorse for letting Cailin die, but i suppose from his view point i wouldnt feel guilty about it either, he rejected all veteran Advice from Both Duncan and Loghain, he was willing to send dozen of soldier into a massacre and certain death where he knew could be no victory

I didn't see either Duncan or Loghain to ever make as much as a peep about how the battle was going to be nothing but 'sending soldiers into massacre and no victory' when the battle plan --which was incidentally devised by Loghain, not Cailan-- was being discussed. To the contrary, the "veteran advice" of Loghain was that's it's "fool notion" to want to wait for reinforcements from Orlais, and that Ferelden could do it entirely on its own, there and then.

If Cailan is guilty of anything, it's trusting the "veteran advice" of his supposed experienced advisors. And Loghain then wanting to feed his body to the wolves for that is... well, "distasteful and hypocritical" doesn't even begin to cover that.

[ejoslin]

Aisynia wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Out of curiosity, how can the opinion remain after he basically tells you he can't have sex with you if you don't love him?  And in order to keep the romance alive he insists on some sort of commitment for the future? He does take sex seriously at the end.  And it surprises him more than anyone.

History is history, and it can't be ignored.

I would never, ever have sex with someone like Zevran.

Ah, but that's different than what you said originally.  I agree that everyone has different tastes and what works for one doesn't work for someone else.  I was just more curious about you saying that he doesn't take sex seriously but that you had seen the romance to the end where he refuses to have sex with the warden until s/he is willing to make a commitment to him regarding their future together.  He definitely takes sex seriously with the warden after he falls in love.  And it surprises him as well.

Edit: for clarity.

Modifié par ejoslin, 23 avril 2010 - 01:55 .

[Reaverwind]

tmp7704 wrote...

Lowenhart wrote...

EDIT: Except Cailin he never showed remorse for letting Cailin die, but i suppose from his view point i wouldnt feel guilty about it either, he rejected all veteran Advice from Both Duncan and Loghain, he was willing to send dozen of soldier into a massacre and certain death where he knew could be no victory

I didn't see either Duncan or Loghain to ever make as much as a peep about how the battle was going to be nothing but 'sending soldiers into massacre and no victory' when the battle plan --which was incidentally devised by Loghain, not Cailan-- was being discussed. To the contrary, the "veteran advice" of Loghain was that's it's "fool notion" to want to wait for reinforcements from Orlais, and that Ferelden could do it entirely on its own, there and then.

If Cailan is guilty of anything, it's trusting the "veteran advice" of his supposed experienced advisors. And Loghain then wanting to feed his body to the wolves for that is... well, "distasteful and hypocritical" doesn't even begin to cover that.

Bingo. Had Cailin ignored the advice of his "trusted" advisor (Loghain) and listened to the Wardens instead, Ostagar wouldn't have happened.

[Aisynia]

ejoslin wrote...

Aisynia wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Out of curiosity, how can the opinion remain after he basically tells you he can't have sex with you if you don't love him?  And in order to keep the romance alive he insists on some sort of commitment for the future? He does take sex seriously at the end.  And it surprises him more than anyone.

History is history, and it can't be ignored.

I would never, ever have sex with someone like Zevran.

Ah, but that's different than what you said originally.  I agree that everyone has different tastes and what works for one doesn't work for someone else.  I was just more curious about you saying that he doesn't take sex seriously but that you had seen the romance to the end where he refuses to have sex with the warden until s/he is willing to make a commitment to him regarding their future together.  He definitely takes sex seriously with the warden after he falls in love.  And it surprises him as well.

Edit: for clarity.

But he starts off not taking it seriously, and to that point, laying with him is like ****ing half of Antiva.

Yuck.

[ejoslin]

Aisynia wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Aisynia wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Out of curiosity, how can the opinion remain after he basically tells you he can't have sex with you if you don't love him?  And in order to keep the romance alive he insists on some sort of commitment for the future? He does take sex seriously at the end.  And it surprises him more than anyone.

History is history, and it can't be ignored.

I would never, ever have sex with someone like Zevran.

Ah, but that's different than what you said originally.  I agree that everyone has different tastes and what works for one doesn't work for someone else.  I was just more curious about you saying that he doesn't take sex seriously but that you had seen the romance to the end where he refuses to have sex with the warden until s/he is willing to make a commitment to him regarding their future together.  He definitely takes sex seriously with the warden after he falls in love.  And it surprises him as well.

Edit: for clarity.

But he starts off not taking it seriously, and to that point, laying with him is like ****ing half of Antiva.

Yuck.

Again, I understand that.  But you don't have to have sex with him then to have a romance with him.  He was born and raised until the age of 7 in a **** house, and taught at least some techniques there.  He was then a crow, and part of the reason Crows like elven assassins was because humans liked having sex with them.  So he was further taught to use sex that way.  It would be weird if at the start sex was about love for him -- completely out of character.

That doesn't change the fact that after he falls in love, he takes sex extremely seriously.  You don't even have to have sex with him for him to fall in love and want the warden to make that commitment to him (though you do have to proposition him once).

What's surprising about Zevran's romance is not that he doesn't have sex and love mixed up at the beginning, it's that at the end, he does.

[soignee]

ejoslin wrote...


Again, I understand that.  But you don't have to have sex with him then to have a romance with him.  He was born and raised until the age of 7 in a **** house, and taught at least some techniques there.  He was then a crow, and part of the reason Crows like elven assassins was because humans liked having sex with them.  So he was further taught to use sex that way.  It would be weird if at the start sex was about love for him -- completely out of character.

That doesn't change the fact that after he falls in love, he takes sex extremely seriously.  You don't even have to have sex with him for him to fall in love and want the warden to make that commitment to him (though you do have to proposition him once).

What's surprising about Zevran's romance is not that he doesn't have sex and love mixed up at the beginning, it's that at the end, he does.

Also, obviously, sex is a bad thing and enjoying it is something you should feel shameful about. Amirite? Amirite?

fffffffffffffffff-

(sl*t shaming? on my boards? There's a suprise.)

[tmp7704]

soignee wrote...

Also, obviously, sex is a bad thing and enjoying it is something you should feel shameful about. Amirite? Amirite?

fffffffffffffffff-

(sl*t shaming? on my boards? There's a suprise.)

I think the idea there is actually, sex is more than just enjoyment to some, so someone who (seemingly) perceives it as just such simple pleasure may be lacking mental connection with someone who sees it as more than that. Which would make for mismateched relationship and as such, there's less or no incentive to seek relationship with the person.  It's this attitude of trivialization that's supposed to be shameful, not sex itself.

Modifié par tmp7704, 23 avril 2010 - 02:25 .

[ejoslin]

His attitude makes sense, though, and in fact, any other attitude at the beginning would not make sense. Sex to him was a tool, one used for many different reasons, pleasure being only one of them, but love had no place in his world.

I absolutely love that at the end, he will break up with the warden if they try to keep it casual. For him, sex IS an expression of love. It's quite a change.  In many ways he goes through the most changes of all the companions if he's romanced.

And *grin* soignee, like my characters wait! Well, one or two have, but yeh. My HNFs especially have their own fun in mind as well!

Modifié par ejoslin, 23 avril 2010 - 02:31 .

[soignee]

ejoslin wrote...

His attitude makes sense, though, and in fact, any other attitude at the beginning would not make sense. Sex to him was a tool, one used for many different reasons, pleasure being only one of them, but love had no place in his world.

I absolutely love that at the end, he will break up with the warden if they try to keep it casual. For him, sex IS an expression of love. It's quite a change.  In many ways he goes through the most changes of all the companions if he's romanced.

And *grin* soignee, like my characters wait! Well, one or two have, but yeh. My HNFs especially have their own fun in mind as well!

hahah like my Brosca couls wait too. "sweet, no strings? Awesome, get in my tent."

[tmp7704]

ejoslin wrote...

His attitude makes sense, though, and in fact, any other attitude at the beginning would not make sense. Sex to him was a tool, one used for many different reasons, pleasure being only one of them, but love had no place in his world.

Oh i agree, if anything it's the change in the end that feels out of character and something put there to make the player feel good about the whole affair. Which of course can be handwaved with "oh but now he's in love" but... well, don't want to get too cynical here so going to end it at that.

[ejoslin]

tmp7704 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

His attitude makes sense, though, and in fact, any other attitude at the beginning would not make sense. Sex to him was a tool, one used for many different reasons, pleasure being only one of them, but love had no place in his world.

Oh i agree, if anything it's the change in the end that feels out of character and something put there to make the player feel good about the whole affair. Which of course can be handwaved with "oh but now he's in love" but... well, don't want to get too cynical here so going to end it at that.

See, I think that's the whole point of his romance.  It's not that it's out of character, it's that he changes that much.  Even with a friend, he will acknowledge that he had no clue what friendship was until he met the warden.  He actually does, fairly close to the beginning, tell a warden if the romance is started that he thinks he would like a future with the warden (if you go down that dialog path, that is -- you can also make it clear it's purely about sex).  There's a lot more going on than what first appears on the surface.

Edit: See, Zevran's romance, while it can be played as casual from the start, can also be played as NOT.  The dialog supports both.

Second edit: I'd go one step further and saying him falling in love or trusting a friend is totally out of character from the person you meet at the beginning -- if you are only looking at the surface of the character.  There's a deep thread of caring running through him though, and it's only because he's as strong as he is that that side of him didn't destroy him during his training.  Just like there was sex with partners in his past that obviously had an impact on him.  Things are not quite as casual for him as it may appear.

Modifié par ejoslin, 23 avril 2010 - 03:00 .

[Addai]

CalJones wrote...

No I'm not saying Alistair is whining - just saying that he has flaws that become less tolerable over time the same way that a puppy quickly gets a lot less cute once he starts keeping you awake at night, shredding your shoes and leaving puddles in unexpected places. I don't think you can deny that Alistair is quite puppy-ish, though.
(I'm more of a cat person, though. Which is why I prefer Zevran. He is Puss from Shrek, after all!)

I can see that, since I basically find it difficult even to talk to Leliana anymore.  Wynne has also steadily decreased in tolerability.  I just have never had the same reaction to Alistair, but I understand it can happen.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Of course there is a huge difference between Howe and Loghain. But my point was this. Would an HN allow vengeance to cloud reason and would he abandon his nation because of one man?
If he wouldn't do so, then it's not hypocritical to despise Alistair's actions. And the HN has A LOT more reason to hate Howe.

I would dispute you on both points, though I don't want to derail the thread topic.  But consider:  Loghain profited from Howe's depravity and rewarded it, so who is really worse?  And Alistair has just as much reason to hate Loghain on a personal level as the HN does for Howe.  Both had their family taken away from them.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Of course there is a huge difference between Howe and Loghain. But my point was this. Would an HN allow vengeance to cloud reason and would he abandon his nation because of one man?
If he wouldn't do so, then it's not hypocritical to despise Alistair's actions. And the HN has A LOT more reason to hate Howe.

I would dispute you on both points, though I don't want to derail the thread topic.  But consider:  Loghain profited from Howe's depravity and rewarded it, so who is really worse?  And Alistair has just as much reason to hate Loghain on a personal level as the HN does for Howe.  Both had their family taken away from them.

That's politics for you. Sometimes we don't have the luxury to pick allies. But from Anora's account and Gaideer's comments, we know Loghain despised Howe.

And you expect me to take the comparision between Alsitair hanging with the Wardens for 6 months and the Cousland's family being massacred in front of his / her eyes, seriously? What happened to Alistair is no where near the tragedy of a Cousland.

And that's all irrelevent. My initial point was that my Cousland, depite everything, would not have abandonned Ferelden just because Howe wouldn't be killed. With that logic, he has every reason to despise Alistair for his desertion.
Now let's stop herebefore we derail this further.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

That's politics for you. Sometimes we don't have the luxury to pick allies. But from Anora's account and Gaideer's comments, we know Loghain despised Howe.

We all make excuses and allowances for our favorite characters, you see.

[tmp7704]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

What happened to Alistair is no where near the tragedy of a Cousland.

That hinges purely on the strength of feelings both the Cousland and Alistair had for their respective 'families'. Since tragedy in question is emotional impact these events have on the characters. And the amount of time you've spent with people can be largely irrelevant here, if not detrimental, actually -- there's a reason lot of relationships deteriorate and the feelings fade as the time goes.

Modifié par tmp7704, 23 avril 2010 - 03:08 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

tmp7704 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

What happened to Alistair is no where near the tragedy of a Cousland.

That hinges purely on the strength of feelings both the Cousland and Alistair had for their respective 'families'. Since tragedy in question is emotional impact these events have on the characters. And the amount of time you've spent with people can be largely irrelevant here, if not detrimental, actually -- there's a reason lot of relationships deteriorate and the feelings fade as the time goes.

Sorry, but I will not take this comparision seriously at all. If he had been adopted by the Wardes and he was still a kid, sure. But now, he is just showing hismelf to be an emotional weakling.

And like I said, it's irrelevent. No matter how much he loved the Wardens, his desertion will not be tolerated by my Cousland.  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 23 avril 2010 - 03:14 .

[MagicalSarai]

I prefer Zevran, I just do... something about that Antivan accent and the assassin persona of not giving a care... I liked Zevran. Plus, my main character is an elf mage... and no matter how sweet Alistair was, he was still human and he was a templar. Thus, when the mage saw a way not only to save herself but to put Anora in charge... Alistair was executed for the good of Ferelden.

[tmp7704]

ejoslin wrote...

Second edit: I'd go one step further and saying him falling in love or trusting a friend is totally out of character from the person you meet at the beginning -- if you are only looking at the surface of the character.  There's a deep thread of caring running through him though, and it's only because he's as strong as he is that that side of him didn't destroy him during his training.  Just like there was sex with partners in his past that obviously had an impact on him.  Things are not quite as casual for him as it may appear.

I should've worded it better initially. Perhaps it's not as much "out of character" but simply disappointing to have the character turn out to be such a stereotype in the end. It's bit like i feel about Jack in ME2 -- yes, the whole "they've been through a really ****ty life so it warped them and made them put walls around them" is enough of a cliche on its own, but then getting "but wait, they still have the heart of gold buried inside and only you, brave protagonist, could make them reveal it" is just... well, gag me with a spoon.

[tmp7704]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sorry, but I will not take this comparision seriously at all. If he had been adopted by the Wardes and he was still a kid, sure. But now, he is just showing hismelf to be an emotional weakling.

If developing strong feelings for another person once you're past age of 10 is sign of emotional weakness, what's your views on concepts of love (in general) and adoption? (specifically from the side of these who adopt not the ones adopted)

[KnightofPhoenix]

tmp7704 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sorry, but I will not take this comparision seriously at all. If he had been adopted by the Wardes and he was still a kid, sure. But now, he is just showing hismelf to be an emotional weakling.

If developing strong feelings for another person once you're past age of 10 is sign of emotional weakness, what's your views on concepts of love (in general) and adoption? (specifically from the side of these who adopt not the ones adopted)

I will be brief, as this is derailement.

Would I abandon my nation and leave everyone I claimed to have loved to die, because someone who killed a friend of mine I had known for 6 months was spared because he yielded? And that's not to mention that this friend of mine who died would have wanted nothing more than to save this land that I am now deserting. And that's not to mention that I am part of a military organisation and an army.

If I do so, then yes I would be an emotional weakling. A person who can't control his emotions and can't stop them from clouding reason and common sense is emotionally weak. And I wouldn't blame the commander for executing me.  

When emotion clouds reason this much, it's a sign of weakness, yes. Unless Alistair rationally determined that his vengeance is worth the hundreds of thousands of lives in Ferelden that he is abandoning. If he did, which I doubt, then I would question his rationality and have him executed regardless.  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 23 avril 2010 - 03:31 .

[ejoslin]

tmp7704 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Second edit: I'd go one step further and saying him falling in love or trusting a friend is totally out of character from the person you meet at the beginning -- if you are only looking at the surface of the character.  There's a deep thread of caring running through him though, and it's only because he's as strong as he is that that side of him didn't destroy him during his training.  Just like there was sex with partners in his past that obviously had an impact on him.  Things are not quite as casual for him as it may appear.

I should've worded it better initially. Perhaps it's not as much "out of character" but simply disappointing to have the character turn out to be such a stereotype in the end. It's bit like i feel about Jack in ME2 -- yes, the whole "they've been through a really ****ty life so it warped them and made them put walls around them" is enough of a cliche on its own, but then getting "but wait, they still have the heart of gold buried inside and only you, brave protagonist, could make them reveal it" is just... well, gag me with a spoon.

But it wasn't buried, only coming out at the end.  It shows through more and more as you talk to him more.  He talks about the old scars which he ignores, about how there is NOTHING glorious about being an assassin, etc etc (many people miss those dialog choices, but they most certainly are there).  And he makes the pleas he does for mercy on the mages and the dalish and the slaves no matter what his approval level is.  And he never develops this "heart of gold."  He remains a survivor and a pragmatist no matter what.

What does change is he finally no longer has to try to keep the caring part of him buried.  He never quite succeeded at that anyway.

Edit: I realize that that the romance is not for everyone.  But I think Zevran is a seriously misunderstood character.

Second edit: It's not really fair to single out Zevran going through that much personal growth (ick, hate that term but) because of the warden.  ALL the characters do, if you do their personal quest.  The difference is, of course, that Zevran's can't be avoided if he's in your party.  How it turns out, how he reacts, has to do with his approval, but really, it's not so much different.

Modifié par ejoslin, 23 avril 2010 - 03:41 .

[tmp7704]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Would I abandon my nation and leave everyone I claimed to have loved to die, because someone who killed a friend of mine I had known for 6 months was spared because he yielded?

Small catch here -- "everyone i claimed to love" is already dead when that particular situation takes place, and murdered by the very man you're attempting to spare. You may make a point about possible lack of care towards the nation in general, but it is quite nebulous concept and the nation itself didn't exactly do much to expect such blind dedication to them.
 

If I do so, then yes I would be an emotional weakling. A person who can't control his emotions and can't stop them from clouding reason and common sense is emotionally weak. And I wouldn't blame the commander for executing me.

This implies the decision made by the commander is actually sensible, reasonable and not clouded by their own feelings. Which is highly debatable in this particular case and had been debated ad nauseam, without any decisive conclusion.

When emotion clouds reason this much, it's a sign of weakness, yes. 

It is very different statement from your original claim that Alistair would be emotional weakling simply because he could love the other Wardens as strong as a real family even though he met them late in his life. (if that wasn't the way you meant your initial statement then it didnt really address the point i was making)

Modifié par tmp7704, 23 avril 2010 - 03:43 .