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[KnightofPhoenix]

tmp7704 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Would I abandon my nation and leave everyone I claimed to have loved to die, because someone who killed a friend of mine I had known for 6 months was spared because he yielded?

Small catch here -- "everyone i claimed to love" is already dead when that particular situation takes place, and murdered by the very man you're attempting to spare. You may make a point about possible lack of care towards the nation in general, but it is quite nebulous concept and the nation itself didn't exactly do much to expect such blind dedication to them.

So Alistair doesn't care about Ferelden and his people? The same Ferelden and people that his father and the man he hates fought so hard to free? Oh, and the same Ferelden and people that he had just a few seconds ago declared that he wanted to rule!

Eh, you just made him sound worse.

tmp7704 wrote...

If I do so, then yes I would be an emotional weakling. A person who can't control his emotions and can't stop them from clouding reason and common sense is emotionally weak. And I wouldn't blame the commander for executing me.

This implies the decision made by the commander is actually sensible, reasonable and not clouded by their own feelings. Which is highly debatable in this particular case and had been debated ad nauseam, without any decisive conclusion.

Would have been the case if Alistair provided a rational argument to justify his position, which he did not.

And yes the decision to spare Loghain could be a rational one (or it could not). That depends on how you are RPing the Commander.

When emotion clouds reason this much, it's a sign of weakness, yes. 

It is very different statement from your original claim that Alistair would be emotional weakling simply because he could love the other Wardens as strong as a real family even though he met them late in his life.

No, it is not. From the very beginning, I put the Cousland and Alsitair comparision vis a vis Howe and Loghain in perspective.
I've argued that my Cousland, who would have never abandonned Ferelden and his people because Howe wasn't killed, could not be accused of hypocracy when he executes Alistair for doing just that.

I accused Alistair of emotional waekness because of his desertion.
My inability to take seriously Alistair's love for the Wardens as equalling the Cousland's love for his family, is another thing. What he does with that emotion is what makes him weak.

[tmp7704]

[quote]ejoslin wrote...
And he never develops this "heart of gold."  He remains a survivor and a pragmatist no matter what.[/quote]
I didn't say he develops it, but that it's there despite his upbringing   Yes, you can see it much earlier too, and i just don't know, Zevran is kinda... i can't help but be ambivalent about him. On one hand i do like he has this positive/cheerful attitude/facade and he's fun to have around, but on the other hand it's like watching a trope over a trope over a trope and this layered trope cake is just pushing my buttons.

In contrast (to maybe convey better why he feels this way) Alistair, Leliana --or Morrigan, for these who dislike her-- can be irritating but in a way you'd find a real person irritating, simply because of how they act. Zevran somehow comes across as less than that, as if stereotypes overshadow actual character, or maybe there just isn't enough of actual character left if i discard them. Dunno.
[/quote]

[ejoslin]

[quote]tmp7704 wrote...

[quote]ejoslin wrote...
And he never develops this "heart of gold."  He remains a survivor and a pragmatist no matter what.[/quote]
I didn't say he develops it, but that it's there despite his upbringing   Yes, you can see it much earlier too, and i just don't know, Zevran is kinda... i can't help but be ambivalent about him. On one hand i do like he has this positive/cheerful attitude/facade and he's fun to have around, but on the other hand it's like watching a trope over a trope over a trope and this layered trope cake is just pushing my buttons.

In contrast (to maybe convey better why he feels this way) Alistair, Leliana --or Morrigan, for these who dislike her-- can be irritating but in a way you'd find a real person irritating, simply because of how they act. Zevran somehow comes across as less than that, as if stereotypes overshadow actual character, or maybe there just isn't enough of actual character left if i discard them. Dunno.
[/quote]
[/quote]

I guess I disagree that he is a stereotype.  Yes, you can say, "Assassin with a heart of gold," but I don't see the heart of gold -- though he is portrayed as funny, smart and compassionate for people who are helpless (NOT for the weak, however).  I see him as a pragmatist.

Though it's not really in response to this particular topic, I think this post address it a bit.  Maybe not, I'm good at misreading things occasionally.

Edit: Again, all the characters undergo dramatic change if you do their personal quest.  I'm not saying someone has to LIKE Zevran, want to romance him, or anything like that.  But the character is seriously a lot more complicated than just a few stereotypes.  He breaks a lot of them, in fact, and I've seen people objecting to THAT as well.

Second edit because I'm bad that way: I guess it all depends on what you call a heart of gold.  He's compassionate, but not terribly much so.  He does show kindness, but not for many.  He's well mannered for sure, but so is everyone in the game.  Funny and smart -- yeh, even if I didn't romance him he'd be my right-hand man.

Modifié par ejoslin, 23 avril 2010 - 04:21 .

[tmp7704]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

So Alistair doesn't care about Ferelden and his people? The same Ferelden and people that his father and the man he hates fought so hard to free?

He possibly doesn't. The father card has little appeal to a bastard child who was never acknowledged, so that argument rings hollow. And i'd question whether Loghain cares much about Ferelden himself, or if he just hates Orlais out of pain he'd personally experienced and want them out, at all cost and Ferelden be damned.
 

Oh, and the same Ferelden and people that he had just a few seconds ago declared that he wanted to rule!

I think it's pretty obvious --even the way he words it-- he asked to be put in charge despite his dislike for the concept, and simply because it seemed like the only way to get what he considered justice to be done. You aren't going to lambast the man for taking the "ending justifies the means" stance for once, are you?

Would have been the case if Alistair provided a rational argument to justify his position, which he did not.

He does provide number of arguments why sparing Loghain is a foolhardy concept. Whether you agree with him is another story, but the distrust he expresses for Loghain appears well grounded in reality and based purely on the man's track record.

I accused Alistair of emotional waekness because of his desertion.

And how do you reason it isn't your emotional attachment to this concept of "duty towards country" and people you don't personally know,  that makes your Cousland the emotional weakling here, one unable to accept someone else like Alistair could sees it different, and with wits clouded to the point where they'd want to execute a man just for disagreeing?

Modifié par tmp7704, 23 avril 2010 - 04:21 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

tmp7704 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

So Alistair doesn't care about Ferelden and his people? The same Ferelden and people that his father and the man he hates fought so hard to free?

He possibly doesn't. The father card has little appeal to a bastard child who was never acknowledged, so that argument rings hollow. And i'd question whether Loghain cares much about Ferelden himself, or if he just hates Orlais out of pain he'd personally experienced and want them out, at all cost and Ferelden be damned.

I love how Alistair lovers keep pointing figners at Loghain. It's completely and utterly irrlevent what Loghain feels. We are talking about Alistair.

Ok, Alistair doesn't give a **** about Ferelden. Not the kind of attitude my Warden tolerates in his army.

But wait, let's forget about Ferelden shall we. Alistair claims he loves the Wardens, does he not? And yet he has no problem at abandonning the fight against the blight. Such a Warden thing to do.

Alsitair loves nothing except himself. If he had even a small amount of repsect for Duncan and what it means to be a Warden, he would have never turned his back to the Blight that Duncan died trying to stop.

tmp7704 wrote...

Oh, and the same Ferelden and people that he had just a few seconds ago declared that he wanted to rule!

I think it's pretty obvious --even the way he words it-- he asked to be put in charge despite his dislike for the concept, and simply because it seemed like the only way to get what he considered justice to be done. You aren't going to lambast the man for taking the "ending justifies the means" stance for once, are you?

In my playthrough, I never asked of him to be king, so that argument goes out the window. He was under no obligation to make himself want to be king.

As for "end justifies the means". I question his "ends". If he actually thinks that his vengeance is more important to my Cousland than the fate of Ferelden, a nation that he doesn't seem to care about, then he is even more of an idiot.
Not only is Alistair not fit to be King, but he also shows hismelf willign to abandon the nation that he wants to rule. That's not my idea of a good king, so his "ends" are despicable.

tmp7704 wrote...

Would have been the case if Alistair provided a rational argument to justify his position, which he did not.

He does provide number of arguments why sparing Loghain is a foolhardy concept. Whether you agree with him is another story, but the distrust he expresses for Loghain appears well grounded in reality and based purely on the man's track record.

No he does not. All he says is: "How could you do this tyo me? You of all people." And "But he killed Duncan."
That's it.
Oh and this "I don't want to be king, but I will do it just so I can kill Loghain".

Definately not rational enough for my PC.

tmp7704 wrote...

I accused Alistair of emotional waekness because of his desertion.

And how do you reason it isn't your emotional attachment to this concept of "duty towards country" and people you don't personally know,  that makes your Cousland the emotional weakling here, one unable to accept someone else like Alistair could sees it different, and with wits clouded to the point where they'd want to execute a man just for disagreeing?

Because my Cousland did not let this emotion cloud reason. If abandonning Ferelden was the only option to stop the Blight, he would have done so. But that was never the case.
Fuerthermore, I find it laughable that all of a sudden you are comparing a selfless or not purely self-interested emotion to a purely selfish one.

He didn't want to execute Alistair for disagreeing, he doesn't care what Alistair thinks. He executed him for desertion and treason. That's how the military rolls and that's definately how the Wardens do it. The same Wardens Alistair claims to love. 

Oh, and it was Alistair who forced himself in that position. He was the one who wanted to leave Ferelden to die, because the landsmeet disagreed with him and wanted to spare Loghain. He could disagree all he wants, but he shouldn't expect to desert without being punished.

Now I must go. Cheers! 



   

[tmp7704]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I love how Alistair lovers keep pointing figners at Loghain.

I don't point fingers at Loghain. I just don't see why the argument how "Loghain fought hard to free Ferelden" is supposed to make Alistair care about it. That bit about Loghain's possible reasons was merely a sidenote.

Ok, Alistair doesn't give a **** about Ferelden. Not the kind of attitude my Warden tolerates in his army.

But wait, let's forget about Ferelden shall we. Alistair claims he loves the Wardens, does he not? And yet he has no problem at abandonning the fight against the blight. Such a Warden thing to do.

Why does your Warden do give **** about Ferelden? I can understand Cousland feeling personally responsible for his/her subjects they're supposed to protect but that's just small part of much bigger country. What reasons are there for them to care about it all?

And like discussed already, these Wardens Alistair loved are dead. And the ones who remain make him go "fffffuu die in a fire" rather than want to still be part of them. He does a very reasonable thing to do when such relationship goes sour the way it does -- he breaks it up. Lot of players seem unable to get over it, perhaps because this is the one case where they aren't given luxury of screaming "NO U" after him to get the last word in?

In my playthrough, I never asked of him to be king, so that argument goes out the window. He was under no obligation to make himself want to be king.

It doesn't go out of window because that's not what i refer to. The instance i meant is the one where he goes "i never wanted to be king but if that's what it takes to get Loghain executed then make me king". Which is entirely unrelated to any planning done beforehand.

No he does not. All he says is: "How could you do this tyo me? You of all people." And "But he killed Duncan."
That's it.

He points out you're trying to spare a man who had no qualms about betraying both his king and his soldiers, and who murdered bunch of the Wardens out of his paranoid (read, unable to control) fear of Orlais. If your Warden is despite that hell-bent on recruiting a mentally unstable and clearly untrustworthy individual with personal grudge towards you in their rank then it's their choice, but it doesn't really make these factors go away nor any less valid concerns.

Because my Cousland did not let this emotion cloud reason. (..)
He didn't want to execute Alistair for disagreeing, he doesn't care what Alistair thinks. He executed him for desertion and treason. That's how the military rolls and that's definately how the Wardens do it. The same Wardens Alistair claims to love.

And yet the very same Cousland is against executing Loghain who also deserted from the field of battle and who betrayed the man he was sworn to protect. And this Cousland says Alistair is the crazy one because he wants to kill Loghain for that.

The way Cousland's military rolls is a funny one.

[Tirigon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ok, Alistair doesn't give a **** about Ferelden. Not the kind of attitude my Warden tolerates in his army.

Well that´s your POV. I can understand that.
However, my POV is different.
I mean, City Elf is my favourite origin and Shianni my favourite NPC and thinking about what humans did to elves in general and Shianni especially I honestly couldn´t care less what happens to these fereldan scumbags.

No joke, if you had the possibility in the game my Elf PC would probably try to ally with the Archdemon to defeat the humans and found the old elven Empire anew, and she would definitely NEVER even dream of seeing Ferelden as more important than herself and her friends, even when (as we metagamers know) an alliance with the darkspawn is impossible.

[Aisynia]

ejoslin wrote...

Aisynia wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Aisynia wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Out of curiosity, how can the opinion remain after he basically tells you he can't have sex with you if you don't love him?  And in order to keep the romance alive he insists on some sort of commitment for the future? He does take sex seriously at the end.  And it surprises him more than anyone.

History is history, and it can't be ignored.

I would never, ever have sex with someone like Zevran.

Ah, but that's different than what you said originally.  I agree that everyone has different tastes and what works for one doesn't work for someone else.  I was just more curious about you saying that he doesn't take sex seriously but that you had seen the romance to the end where he refuses to have sex with the warden until s/he is willing to make a commitment to him regarding their future together.  He definitely takes sex seriously with the warden after he falls in love.  And it surprises him as well.

Edit: for clarity.

But he starts off not taking it seriously, and to that point, laying with him is like ****ing half of Antiva.

Yuck.

Again, I understand that.  But you don't have to have sex with him then to have a romance with him.  He was born and raised until the age of 7 in a **** house, and taught at least some techniques there.  He was then a crow, and part of the reason Crows like elven assassins was because humans liked having sex with them.  So he was further taught to use sex that way.  It would be weird if at the start sex was about love for him -- completely out of character.

That doesn't change the fact that after he falls in love, he takes sex extremely seriously.  You don't even have to have sex with him for him to fall in love and want the warden to make that commitment to him (though you do have to proposition him once).

What's surprising about Zevran's romance is not that he doesn't have sex and love mixed up at the beginning, it's that at the end, he does.

I understand all that. And I don't hate Zevran as a person. I like him just fine. Hardly my favorite party member but I don't dislike him.

Unfortunately, you are sort of missing my point and defending him based on his future actions.

What I am saying is that in order to get to the end of the relationship, you have to be willing to go through everything leading up to that. In order to get him to think in that new, surprising way and see that side of him, you need to pursue it in the first place. While the end result is appealing, he starts off as very UNappealing. This is contrary to Alistair, the subject of this topic, who does the exact opposite. He starts appealing and grows unappealing.

As much as I like Zevran as a person, laying with him is about the last damned thing I would ever do You say you only need to proposition him, well that's great, but BioWare romances (and most RL ones) end in sex, and I ain't touching that with a ten foot pole. I feel for him as a character and a person, recognizing his upbringing, and don't hold it against him personally, that doesn't mean I want to catch the diseases he's carrying and have sexual contact with half of Antiva.

*sigh* I don't wanna have a debate here. I don't think we see eye to eye, nor wil we.. but I don't want this turnign into an argument when I believe we can both agree that this issue is not remotely a big deal. Our differences of opinion only seem to hang on a couple of details anyways. It's really not worth spending all the effort on.

That said, to address your post one final time...

If we knew how well a relationship would end up, regardless of the crap we had to go through to get to that point.. a lot less relationships and marriages would end badly.

[Tirigon]

tmp7704 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Because my Cousland did not let this emotion cloud reason. (..)
He didn't want to execute Alistair for disagreeing, he doesn't care what Alistair thinks. He executed him for desertion and treason. That's how the military rolls and that's definately how the Wardens do it. The same Wardens Alistair claims to love.

And yet the very same Cousland is against executing Loghain who also deserted from the field of battle and who betrayed the man he was sworn to protect. And this Cousland says Alistair is the crazy one because he wants to kill Loghain for that.

The way Cousland's military rolls is a funny one.

It´s not the way Cousland military rolls, it´s more the way Knight let´s his emotions - hate for Alistair, admiration for Loghain - cloud his reason.

[Tirigon]

@ Aisynia: What is so wrong with Zevran that you wouldn´t sleep with him?



My characters were all very happy to have little distraction in the lonely nights at camp until you can get Leliana and Alistair to dare doing the deed^^

[tmp7704]

Tirigon wrote...

Well that´s your POV. I can understand that.
However, my POV is different.
I mean, City Elf is my favourite origin and Shianni my favourite NPC and thinking about what humans did to elves in general and Shianni especially I honestly couldn´t care less what happens to these fereldan scumbags.

Indeed. My city elf got roped into the whole Warden business very much against her will, and she only stuck with it after the Ostagar because apparently that was the only way to maybe save her alienage folks from getting eaten. But the population of Ferelden on the whole, the concern for that hovered somewhere between "not my concern" and "couldn't care less". With occasional spike to as high as "lukewarm".

[KnightofPhoenix]

Eh, just finished dressing and I can't resist, I have to reply.

tmp7704 wrote...

Ok, Alistair doesn't give a **** about Ferelden. Not the kind of attitude my Warden tolerates in his army.

But wait, let's forget about Ferelden shall we. Alistair claims he loves the Wardens, does he not? And yet he has no problem at abandonning the fight against the blight. Such a Warden thing to do.

Why does your Warden do give **** about Ferelden? I can understand Cousland feeling personally responsible for his/her subjects they're supposed to protect but that's just small part of much bigger country. What reasons are there for them to care about it all?

And like discussed already, these Wardens Alistair loved are dead. And the ones who remain make him go "fffffuu die in a fire" rather than want to still be part of them. He does a very reasonable thing to do when such relationship goes sour the way it does -- he breaks it up. Lot of players seem unable to get over it, perhaps because this is the one case where they aren't given luxury of screaming "NO U" after him to get the last word in?

Because he was raised to give a **** about his nation. And he can't expect to defend Higherver if the whole kingdom collapses. And you speak as if Alistair created a philosophy for hismelf where he rationally determined that his own being is the most important thing in the world. HAd hedone so and had he said so, I would have seen him differently. Still wouldn't change my decision, but at least I would know he is coherent.

And yet he does not honor the memory of the Wardens who are dead that he claims to love. And you expect me to really believe that hedoes love them? What would Duncan do it him ifhe saw him do this?
And no one wanted him to go to a ire. What I expected of him is to disagree silently and not abandon the fight.
And the last word was for my wArden, in agreeing to execute him and I do not regret it.
 

tmp7704 wrote...

No he does not. All he says is: "How could you do this tyo me? You of all people." And "But he killed Duncan."
That's it.

He points out you're trying to spare a man who had no qualms about betraying both his king and his soldiers, and who murdered bunch of the Wardens out of his paranoid (read, unable to control) fear of Orlais. If your Warden is despite that hell-bent on recruiting a mentally unstable and clearly untrustworthy individual with personal grudge towards you in their rank then it's their choice, but it doesn't really make these factors go away nor any less valid concerns..

Sparing a man that wielded and a man that can be useful.
Regardless of what Alistair thinks about Loghain, his desertion is not justified.

He could disagree all he wants. That does not justify abandoning his people.
No where did I say that I care if Alsitair agrees with my wArden or not. What I am talking about is his desertion.

Is his hate so big that he is willing to abandon his people?
By showing me this, I have seen that Alistair is the mentally unstable one and not Loghain.

tmp7704 wrote...

Because my Cousland did not let this emotion cloud reason. (..)
He didn't want to execute Alistair for disagreeing, he doesn't care what Alistair thinks. He executed him for desertion and treason. That's how the military rolls and that's definately how the Wardens do it. The same Wardens Alistair claims to love.

And yet the very same Cousland is against executing Loghain who also deserted from the field of battle and who betrayed the man he was sworn to protect. And this Cousland says Alistair is the crazy one because he wants to kill Loghain for that.

The way Cousland's military rolls is a funny one.

Pathetic reasoning. Loghain did not betray his nation. All he ever did was for Ferelden. And he retreated for political and military calculations. Loghain deserted his king, but he did not desert his nation. So my Cousland did not see him the same way he saw Alistair.
And that's not mentioning that Loghain was being conscripted into being a Warden, not set free and given a nice mansion where he could chill.

Alistair abandonned Ferelden not for efficiency, not because of some military reason, not because of a strategic reason, not for a rational reason. He abandon his people for one reason only and that's because his vengeance is more important than hundreds of thousands of civilian lives.

Now I really must go.
Cheers.

[Aisynia]

tmp7704 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Would I abandon my nation and leave everyone I claimed to have loved to die, because someone who killed a friend of mine I had known for 6 months was spared because he yielded?

Small catch here -- "everyone i claimed to love" is already dead when that particular situation takes place, and murdered by the very man you're attempting to spare. You may make a point about possible lack of care towards the nation in general, but it is quite nebulous concept and the nation itself didn't exactly do much to expect such blind dedication to them.

Unless I am misunderstanding what point you are making, I need to interject here, especially in light of the actual topic title of the thread.

You're assuming that everyone and everything Alistair loved is dead (the Grey Wardens), and that alistair is flipping out because you are trying to spare the guy who was responsible.

This sort of falls flat when you are in a romance with him. You can be in an all out 100% romance, having slept with him and everything.. and sparing Loghain, an ACT of MERCY will cause Alistair to flip out and leave immediately. He spends so much of the game telling you he loves you and then WHAM. turns out, he loves his hatred for Loghain more than he loves the PC.

Now, I don't want to trivialize how he felt about Duncan by saying he only knew him 6 months. I can think back to the time when I only knew my girlfriend 6 months and losing her would have made me die inside. I doubt Alistair was in love with Duncan, obviously, but I'm saying, you can care a great deal for someone even if you haven't known them relatively long.

What I have always failed to understand is WHY he liked Duncan so much in the first place.

As the Grey Warden main character.. and as alistair.. Duncan. Is. Your. MURDERER.

DUNCAN KILLS YOU.

It might take a few years, but he has sealed your fate, through deception. Grey Wardens have to do what they have to do, fine, accepted, but why should anyone care for the guy who killed them? I couldn't.

I mean, the circumstances for the Origins are special and he's usually saving you from IMMEDIATE death, but he's carting you off to take the joining, trading one death sentence for another.

Alistair may have hated living in the Chantry as a brother, but he would have made a great templar (he comes equipped with the stick in his ass after all). Alistair's greatest danger was repeated bouts of kitchen duty.

[ejoslin]

Aisynia wrote...

I understand all that. And I don't hate Zevran as a person. I like him just fine. Hardly my favorite party member but I don't dislike him.

Unfortunately, you are sort of missing my point and defending him based on his future actions.

What I am saying is that in order to get to the end of the relationship, you have to be willing to go through everything leading up to that. In order to get him to think in that new, surprising way and see that side of him, you need to pursue it in the first place. While the end result is appealing, he starts off as very UNappealing. This is contrary to Alistair, the subject of this topic, who does the exact opposite. He starts appealing and grows unappealing.

As much as I like Zevran as a person, laying with him is about the last damned thing I would ever do You say you only need to proposition him, well that's great, but BioWare romances (and most RL ones) end in sex, and I ain't touching that with a ten foot pole. I feel for him as a character and a person, recognizing his upbringing, and don't hold it against him personally, that doesn't mean I want to catch the diseases he's carrying and have sexual contact with half of Antiva.

*sigh* I don't wanna have a debate here. I don't think we see eye to eye, nor wil we.. but I don't want this turnign into an argument when I believe we can both agree that this issue is not remotely a big deal. Our differences of opinion only seem to hang on a couple of details anyways. It's really not worth spending all the effort on.

That said, to address your post one final time...

If we knew how well a relationship would end up, regardless of the crap we had to go through to get to that point.. a lot less relationships and marriages would end badly.

But since you don't have sex with him until after he falls in love (or really, even after he falls in love but you have to proposition him once), I'm not quite sure what you mean.  He has very few romance-specific dialogs before falling in love.  I can think of two -- when you ask him about his past, and when he propositions you.  Of course, you can ask him about his final mission much earlier if you're romancing him, but that doesn't count because you can ask him as a friend later.

He doesn't say as many pretty things as Alistair and Leliana do, that is true.  But he also defends a warden to others, which I like a lot.  That type of loyalty is nice in a partner, even if it's not a part of the romance (Murdock and Anora come to mind).  He also, whether you're having sex or not, if he's romanced and it's brought up in party banter, he admits everything happily, unlike Alistair who gets embarrassed, and seems quite pleased to be with the warden in that way.

So yeh, it depends on what you're looking at I suppose.

Edit: The first sentence should read, "You don't HAVE to have sex with him until after he falls in love."  Ugh, I need to learn to proof read!

Modifié par ejoslin, 23 avril 2010 - 06:36 .

[Aisynia]

tmp7704 wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

Well that´s your POV. I can understand that.
However, my POV is different.
I mean, City Elf is my favourite origin and Shianni my favourite NPC and thinking about what humans did to elves in general and Shianni especially I honestly couldn´t care less what happens to these fereldan scumbags.

Indeed. My city elf got roped into the whole Warden business very much against her will, and she only stuck with it after the Ostagar because apparently that was the only way to maybe save her alienage folks from getting eaten. But the population of Ferelden on the whole, the concern for that hovered somewhere between "not my concern" and "couldn't care less". With occasional spike to as high as "lukewarm".

Likewise. Kaylee (points to profile image) would have gladly conquered Ferelden for the elves if it were ever a remote possibility.

What's funny is that she always wanted to see and meet the Dalish.. and ended up hating them

Meanwhile, she adores the dwarves.

Modifié par Aisynia, 23 avril 2010 - 06:43 .

[Aisynia]

ejoslin wrote...

Aisynia wrote...

I understand all that. And I don't hate Zevran as a person. I like him just fine. Hardly my favorite party member but I don't dislike him.

Unfortunately, you are sort of missing my point and defending him based on his future actions.

What I am saying is that in order to get to the end of the relationship, you have to be willing to go through everything leading up to that. In order to get him to think in that new, surprising way and see that side of him, you need to pursue it in the first place. While the end result is appealing, he starts off as very UNappealing. This is contrary to Alistair, the subject of this topic, who does the exact opposite. He starts appealing and grows unappealing.

As much as I like Zevran as a person, laying with him is about the last damned thing I would ever do You say you only need to proposition him, well that's great, but BioWare romances (and most RL ones) end in sex, and I ain't touching that with a ten foot pole. I feel for him as a character and a person, recognizing his upbringing, and don't hold it against him personally, that doesn't mean I want to catch the diseases he's carrying and have sexual contact with half of Antiva.

*sigh* I don't wanna have a debate here. I don't think we see eye to eye, nor wil we.. but I don't want this turnign into an argument when I believe we can both agree that this issue is not remotely a big deal. Our differences of opinion only seem to hang on a couple of details anyways. It's really not worth spending all the effort on.

That said, to address your post one final time...

If we knew how well a relationship would end up, regardless of the crap we had to go through to get to that point.. a lot less relationships and marriages would end badly.

But since you don't have sex with him until after he falls in love (or really, even after he falls in love but you have to proposition him once), I'm not quite sure what you mean.  He has very few romance-specific dialogs before falling in love.  I can think of two -- when you ask him about his past, and when he propositions you.  Of course, you can ask him about his final mission much earlier if you're romancing him, but that doesn't count because you can ask him as a friend later.

He doesn't say as many pretty things as Alistair and Leliana do, that is true.  But he also defends a warden to others, which I like a lot.  That type of loyalty is nice in a partner, even if it's not a part of the romance (Murdock and Anora come to mind).  He also, whether you're having sex or not, if he's romanced and it's brought up in party banter, he admits everything happily, unlike Alistair who gets embarrassed, and seems quite pleased to be with the warden in that way.

So yeh, it depends on what you're looking at I suppose.

Stopped reading right there, I apologize.

It doesn't matter.

My concern isn't the moral implications of how he treats sex, it's the biological.

[Aisynia]

Read the rest of your post now (my presence was needed in the other room) and believe it or not, I agree with a lot of what you said and I do very much appreciate those things about Zevran.



It's just that.. I have trouble looking past the biological implications of his sexual contact with SO MANY people.

[CalJones]

This thread got lively while I was at work!



Aisynia - yes I can understand that. Zev's a man **** - were he around in modern day Earth society, he'd probably have HIV, or at the very least, herpes. I would certainly be wary of sleeping with someone like this for fear of catching something nasty. However, this is Fereldan, where fractured skulls and gaping chest wounds can be cured instantly by magic, so a little problem like syphillis isn't going to be much of a stretch for your local healer mage to deal with. Plus it's a game. I like Zev enough as a character that I can overlook the icky factor and concentrate on the nicer parts of his romance (and the prospect of a threesome with Zev and some other hot dude). Ahem.



Re: Alistair's Landsmeet flip-out, I think the only point KoP is trying to make is that Alistair will leav e the Wardens and Fereldan in the lurch because you make a decision he doesn't like. As DG has said on another thread, he will come to regret this later (unless you execute him of course). You can't always control what happens to you in life, but you can control how you react to it. And Alistair fails at this.

[Aisynia]

Epically.

[tmp7704]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Because he was raised to give a **** about his nation. And he can't expect to defend Higherver if the whole kingdom collapses. And you speak as if Alistair created a philosophy for hismelf where he rationally determined that his own being is the most important thing in the world.

I'm just saying Alistair is lacking both your Warden's upbringing and these personal reasons to care -- he's not in charge of Highever, he has no subjects and no liege (the king he maybe was sworn to gets murdered essentially freeing him from obligations). Therefore i don't really see why your Warden expects him --along with every individual in the army-- to conform to the same ideals and viewpoint he personally does. It doesn't require invention of any specific philosophy from Alistair, and only basic empathy to understand.

And yet he does not honor the memory of the Wardens who are dead that he claims to love. And you expect me to really believe that hedoes love them? What would Duncan do it him ifhe saw him do this?

It's irrelevant what Duncan would do. Alistair is not Duncan, and he has his own idea how to honour the people he loved.
 

He could disagree all he wants. That does not justify abandoning his people.
No where did I say that I care if Alsitair agrees with my wArden or not. What I am talking about is his desertion.

Is his hate so big that he is willing to abandon his people?
By showing me this, I have seen that Alistair is the mentally unstable one and not Loghain.

This truly makes no sense. Alistair abandons you because he does not care what happens to you at that point, nor for your cause. If it's hate, it's because you've --against reason in his eyes-- sided with a person he hates and wants dead, a person who objectively deserves that death due to his own actions. In other words, you're at least partially responsible for creating and escalating the situation in the first place, he's largely just reacting to your decisions.

There is also no "his people" to abandon, these people are someone your Cousland might feel obliged to protect but like we've discussed earlier that's personal view of Cousland, not universal law or truth.

Why exactly him going "**** this" is the mentally unstable act here, as opposed to sticking with cause he no longer cares about, to protect people he either hates or who matter none to him?

Pathetic reasoning. Loghain did not betray his nation. All he ever did was for Ferelden. And he retreated for political and military calculations. Loghain deserted his king, but he did not desert his nation. So my Cousland did not see him the same way he saw Alistair.

Then your Cousland is clearly letting his emotions cloud his judgement, because he's at the same claiming that it doesn't matter what an individual thinks, desertion and treason are acts which warrant death in Cousland's military... and at the same time waves that away when it comes to one individual, based purely on what he thinks that individual thinks. Suddenly what the individual thinks matters when in the other case it didn't?

It's also pathetic excuse to spare the man. "Retreated for political and military calculations"? Since when is any military subordinate given right to these? And since when is that an argument why a soldier should excuse themselves from following the battle plan, and consider it carte blanche to outright betray his allies? If that's the way Cousland's military rolls, how is Cousland going to react when half of his army deserts, sorry, retreats for military calculations, for the good of Ferelden leaving the other half to die? After all just the act of deserting your leader --like Loghain deserting his king-- is not serious enough treason to warrant execution... (which begs question what then is, but that's another story)

[ejoslin]

Aisynia wrote...

Read the rest of your post now (my presence was needed in the other room) and believe it or not, I agree with a lot of what you said and I do very much appreciate those things about Zevran.

It's just that.. I have trouble looking past the biological implications of his sexual contact with SO MANY people.

I left out an important part of that first sentence.  It should have read, but you don't HAVE to have, not that you dont' have.

There are no STDs in Thedas apparently.  That makes a difference.

Edit: My human nobles always start with a casual sex fling, and it doesn't get as wild as what she is trying for.  She has a reputation of being wild, in fact, according to Dairran.  

Modifié par ejoslin, 23 avril 2010 - 06:39 .

[tmp7704]

Aisynia wrote...

What's funny is that she always wanted to see and meet the Dalish.. and ended up hating them

Heh, same. Well maybe not hate but she was all like "whee, other elves " and then they were all "you suck " and she was all " ffffffuuu "
Still sided with them when the werewolves started to get violent because well, they're elves  but the love affair was gone at that point.

[Sarah1281]

This truly makes no sense. Alistair abandons you because he does not care what happens to you at that point, nor for your cause.

Your cause is simple: regardless of any other political or personal motivations you are trying to stop the Blight. Everyone else has written Ferelden off as a lost cause because they couldn't get their **** together to deal with it when they had a year between Ostagar and Denerim. How can Alistiar even pretend the Wardens are important to him when he's willing to completely ignore the whole point of their existance (stop the Blight) and let the Blight not only have Ferelden but cause damage to other lands as well until the other Wardens manage to stop it?



Alistiar hates Loghain for abandoing the King, the Wardens, and the soldiers at Ostagar to die. Well he might not have any troops to pull back but he is one of four Grey Wardens left in Ferelden and literally the only hope left of saving it. He abandons the Queen, the three other Wardens, and the soldiers as well as all the civilians to die. In my view, that's worse than what Loghain did at Ostagar. Neither of them knew why the Wardens were needed but at least Alistair believed that they were while Loghain truly thought they were unnecessary.



Of course, the worst thing is that Alistiar is willig to walk away and leave Ferelden to its fate - even if that fate is to be eaten by darkspawn - over Loghain of all people. Is Loghain really worth THAT? That's why my Cousland can't even begin to understand Alistair walking away. She knows that Howe sure as hell isn't worth it.

[sylvanaerie]

nope I have no issues with him. I usually play mages and feel that dueling Loggy as a mage is just bad form from an RP standpoint considering the lore attached to mages. I usually have Alistair duel him as the issue seems to be most personal between those two (frankly I have more an issue with Howe and Caladrius and OMG Branka...I wanna just shove her face through a wall in the Deep Roads than Loghain). I have only dueled Loghain a couple times on my HN's (warrior to warrior) and so have only see the Ali reaction a couple times.

I have to say I sympathize. If Alistair had pulled my PC aside in the middle of battling Howe and said "We are going to make him a warden, nuts to you." I think my HN would have blown a vein right there. So I always choose to kill him. Loghain stays firmly in my head as a villian and its fun for me to play him that way. After the Landsmeet the game goes into a depressing let down for me. Killing the AD is anticlimatic unless I go US. I can relate to and understand Loghain better than the Archdemon. And he's not so completely vile as Howe or Branka so he's written as more "human" for me.



So I really like Alistair as LI or friend. And I love to hate Loghain. For me those are the fun roles I assign to each in the game.

[Aisynia]

tmp7704 wrote...

Aisynia wrote...

What's funny is that she always wanted to see and meet the Dalish.. and ended up hating them

Heh, same. Well maybe not hate but she was all like "whee, other elves " and then they were all "you suck " and she was all " ffffffuuu "
Still sided with them when the werewolves started to get violent because well, they're elves  but the love affair was gone at that point.

Any naive glimmer in her eyes immediately left when Mithra called her a flat-ears.

If I were given the freedom to, Mithra would have immediately been slapped in the face, followed by at least two minutes of yelling about how the Dalish don't know **** about persecution or hardship, and that with her cousin being RAPED by humans, her Alienage being PURGED, and her life in RUINS, the LAST thing she needs is ANOTHER group of people throwing a racial slur at her -- much less another set of elves. A set of elves who have let bitterness and hatred overtake their entire society when they have very little first hand experience of what injustice truly means.

Modifié par Aisynia, 23 avril 2010 - 06:42 .