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[tmp7704]

Aisynia wrote...

Unless I am misunderstanding what point you are making, I need to interject here, especially in light of the actual topic title of the thread.

You're assuming that everyone and everything Alistair loved is dead (the Grey Wardens), and that alistair is flipping out because you are trying to spare the guy who was responsible.

This sort of falls flat when you are in a romance with him. You can be in an all out 100% romance, having slept with him and everything.. and sparing Loghain, an ACT of MERCY will cause Alistair to flip out and leave immediately. He spends so much of the game telling you he loves you and then WHAM. turns out, he loves his hatred for Loghain more than he loves the PC.

I don't think it falls flat... it was discussed in some earlier threads, but it pretty much boils down to -- if you side with Loghain then it breaks the romance in the sense Alistair cannot comprehend how the person who supposedly loved him could make such decision knowing how much act like that would hurt him, and so comes to conclusion he was in love with his idea of you that's actually quite different from what your character actually is like. The "i never really knew you, you're not who i thought you're" sort of heartbreak moment.

It makes the whole thing more tragic for him if anything, since this blow comes from the only person he still loves. And trying to sell it as act of mercy doesn't really cut it in my eyes (when viewed from Alistair's point of view) because i don't believe the PC is really in position to make such call. It'd be like the city elf sparing Vaughan as "act of mercy" and telling Shianni to suck it up, if you pardon a poor analogy.

[tmp7704]

Sarah1281 wrote...
How can Alistiar even pretend the Wardens are important to him when he's willing to completely ignore the whole point of their existance (stop the Blight) and let the Blight not only have Ferelden but cause damage to other lands as well until the other Wardens manage to stop it?

This depends entirely on whether he thought these fellow Wardens were important to him as group of people, or as Wardens.

To use an analogy -- if you are in army and the guys in your squad are great bunch, but then they die in battle. If you then retire, does it mean these people weren't important to you? Or does it simply mean the act of being soldiers was largely irrelevant, and what mattered was the personalities of these guys, and camaraderie you had with them?

[Aisynia]

tmp7704 wrote...

Aisynia wrote...

Unless I am misunderstanding what point you are making, I need to interject here, especially in light of the actual topic title of the thread.

You're assuming that everyone and everything Alistair loved is dead (the Grey Wardens), and that alistair is flipping out because you are trying to spare the guy who was responsible.

This sort of falls flat when you are in a romance with him. You can be in an all out 100% romance, having slept with him and everything.. and sparing Loghain, an ACT of MERCY will cause Alistair to flip out and leave immediately. He spends so much of the game telling you he loves you and then WHAM. turns out, he loves his hatred for Loghain more than he loves the PC.

I don't think it falls flat... it was discussed in some earlier threads, but it pretty much boils down to -- if you side with Loghain then it breaks the romance in the sense Alistair cannot comprehend how the person who supposedly loved him could make such decision knowing how much act like that would hurt him, and so comes to conclusion he was in love with his idea of you that's actually quite different from what your character actually is like. The "i never really knew you, you're not who i thought you're" sort of heartbreak moment.

It makes the whole thing more tragic for him if anything, since this blow comes from the only person he still loves. And trying to sell it as act of mercy doesn't really cut it in my eyes (when viewed from Alistair's point of view) because i don't believe the PC is really in position to make such call. It'd be like the city elf sparing Vaughan as "act of mercy" and telling Shianni to suck it up, if you pardon a poor analogy.

Indeed, as a rape victim, I find that analogy amazingly poor.

Was leaving an army to die at the hands of the darkspawn worse than rape? Boy, that is a question I am not qualified to answer.

Regardless of THAT question..

Letting Vaughan go is so much different. Vaughan has no remorse. No desire to repay society. No moral scruples whatsoever. He hates elves, he sees them as subhuman, and he sees his abuse of them as justified.

Loghain understands he was wrong, and even though he admits he can never truly make up for it, he wants to try anyways.

What makes them different beyond that? If my rapist wanted to try and "make things right" I would probably make a second try at killing him. Rape is an amazingly personal crime though.

Loghain made a tactical decision, an error, and it was definitely a crime. A lot of people died because of it, but it wasn't out of malice, it wasn't on a personal level.. but Alistair is TAKING it personally. My character ISN'T. therein lies the real difference.

I think what's most telling is that Alistair says "Joining the Wardens is an honor, not a punishment". I think several of the Origins could make a case to dispute that, especially considering that the Joining is a death sentence and Duncan is their MURDERER.

My Dwarf Commoner could have fought her way out of that mess, she didn't need his help. She took his offer because her sister insisted, and ended up paying for it with a premature death that she was lied to about. She never saw anything honorable or glorious about the Wardens. They had a job to do and they did it. Period.

In the area of doing his job, once Loghain is on board, he acquits himself admirably -- exactly what you would expect from the Hero of River Dane.

Modifié par Aisynia, 23 avril 2010 - 07:10 .

[Sarah1281]

tmp7704 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
How can Alistiar even pretend the Wardens are important to him when he's willing to completely ignore the whole point of their existance (stop the Blight) and let the Blight not only have Ferelden but cause damage to other lands as well until the other Wardens manage to stop it?

This depends entirely on whether he thought these fellow Wardens were important to him as group of people, or as Wardens.

To use an analogy -- if you are in army and the guys in your squad are great bunch, but then they die in battle. If you then retire, does it mean these people weren't important to you? Or does it simply mean the act of being soldiers was largely irrelevant, and what mattered was the personalities of these guys, and camaraderie you had with them?

Alistair is spitting on their sacrifice. He's not retiring once the Blight is over (as all my Wardens do anyway), he's leaving at the most vital time. That' like if you're in not just an army but an elite branh that's the only qualified people to kill whoever needs to be killed to end the war. You and one other person are the only two survivors and the person who inadvertantly lead to everyone's death now has a plan in place (that's been vetted by a trusted source because it's not like we're making Loghain in charge of the new battle plan) to end the war. You decide you just can't possibly work with him and leave then and there regardless of what happens.

[Aisynia]

Sarah1281 wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
How can Alistiar even pretend the Wardens are important to him when he's willing to completely ignore the whole point of their existance (stop the Blight) and let the Blight not only have Ferelden but cause damage to other lands as well until the other Wardens manage to stop it?

This depends entirely on whether he thought these fellow Wardens were important to him as group of people, or as Wardens.

To use an analogy -- if you are in army and the guys in your squad are great bunch, but then they die in battle. If you then retire, does it mean these people weren't important to you? Or does it simply mean the act of being soldiers was largely irrelevant, and what mattered was the personalities of these guys, and camaraderie you had with them?

Alistair is spitting on their sacrifice. He's not retiring once the Blight is over (as all my Wardens do anyway), he's leaving at the most vital time. That' like if you're in not just an army but an elite branh that's the only qualified people to kill whoever needs to be killed to end the war. You and one other person are the only two survivors and the person who inadvertantly lead to everyone's death now has a plan in place (that's been vetted by a trusted source because it's not like we're making Loghain in charge of the new battle plan) to end the war. You decide you just can't possibly work with him and leave then and there regardless of what happens.

Exactly. He is letting his selfish hatred not only potentially get between him and his lover.. he is abandoning his post and effectively going AWOL at the most crucial point of the war.

[tmp7704]

Aisynia wrote...

Indeed, as a rape victim, I find that analogy amazingly poor.

Let me correct it then. Vaughan kills Shanni. Then you get to tell Soris the man should be spared as act of mercy. Somehow i doubt Soris would hate your guts any less.

regarding the remorse making it different, i really didn't see Loghain ever show any clear sign of that. Definitely not up to the point where the Landsmeet happens (with his absolutely arrogant "if i was wrong, the Maker will judge me but not you") and that's when you get to make the decision. And afterwards, his attitude during the trip back to Ostagar goes very much against any vague impression he might feel some regret.

[Sarah1281]

And afterwards, his attitude during the trip back to Ostagar goes very much against any vague impression he might feel some regret.

If Wynne's there too then it shows that he regretted the need to sacrifice the troops (he still thinks Cailan's an idiot who had his chance, though) and when she tries to guilt him for leaving the conversation implies that the battle was a lot more dire than we'd seen and that the mages were the first to retreat so while Cailan might have been saved I had a lot more doubs that the battle could have been won.

[sylvanaerie]

I thought Loghain couldn't see the battle (hence the need for the signal fire in the tower)? if he could see it why have the signal at all?

[Sarah1281]

sylvanaerie wrote...

I thought Loghain couldn't see the battle (hence the need for the signal fire in the tower)? if he could see it why have the signal at all?

I figured that he knew around when it was supposed to be lit (Duncan tells you you have an hour to get there) but the signal was lit at the exact time a charge would be most effective. If Loghain waits an hour and nothing happens then the longer nothing happens the more he can assume something went wrong and charging would be disastrous. He may be able to see part of the battle and see that the troops in sight are being slaughtered which may influence his decision not to throw his men away on what he views as a lost cause. The whole 'leaving the minute the Beacon was lit' was kind of strange, though.

To me, Ostagar was just a complete disaster on all fronts and the blame for that isn't solely Loghain's. We really don't know what happened there anyway. His true crimes came later with poisoning Eamon, selling elves, letting Howe have free reign, ect.

[sylvanaerie]

Ostagar was a complete debacle thats for sure. I guess we will never know all of what happened that day. Even the PC and Alistair couldn't see up in the tower.

[Sarah1281]

The PC and Alistair have even less reason to hold it against Loghain then we do as they never found out he retreated the minute the Beacon was lit. For all they know Loghain left earlier when everyone else was fleeing which, while still not a good thing to do, is a lot less of a WTF moment.

[tmp7704]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Alistair is spitting on their sacrifice.

If you mean the Joining then he's made the same sacrifice they did and his taint is not going away after he quits. Trying to guilt-trip him based on this isn't going to work, imo.

[Sarah1281]

tmp7704 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Alistair is spitting on their sacrifice.

If you mean the Joining then he's made the same sacrifice they did and his taint is not going away after he quits. Trying to guilt-trip him based on this isn't going to work, imo.

They gave their lives to stop the Blight at Ostagar. He wandered over to go get drunk somewhere.

[sylvanaerie]

Sarah1281 wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Alistair is spitting on their sacrifice.

If you mean the Joining then he's made the same sacrifice they did and his taint is not going away after he quits. Trying to guilt-trip him based on this isn't going to work, imo.

They gave their lives to stop the Blight at Ostagar. He wandered over to go get drunk somewhere.

Well not in my games he doesn't. Usually he retires after the Blight or becomes king.  Of course retirement I guess isn't the right word.  Its not like one can stop being a Gray Warden just because the blight is over.  The taint hovers over everything.  Though I suppose something resembling a normal life can happen for at least 30 years or so till the Calling happens (if you live that long).

[Sarah1281]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Alistair is spitting on their sacrifice.

If you mean the Joining then he's made the same sacrifice they did and his taint is not going away after he quits. Trying to guilt-trip him based on this isn't going to work, imo.

They gave their lives to stop the Blight at Ostagar. He wandered over to go get drunk somewhere.

Well not in my games he doesn't. Usually he retires after the Blight or becomes king.  Of course retirement I guess isn't the right word.  Its not like one can stop being a Gray Warden just because the blight is over.  The taint hovers over everything.  Though I suppose something resembling a normal life can happen for at least 30 years or so till the Calling happens (if you live that long).

In most of mine he ends up rulng with Anora regardless of what happens with Loghain but the question is whether he should be executed for trying to leave to go get drunk somewhere right before everyone runs off to Redcliffe to face the Blight because he's not King and he doesn't get his way about Loghain.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 23 avril 2010 - 07:47 .

[tmp7704]

Sarah1281 wrote...

They gave their lives to stop the Blight at Ostagar. He wandered over to go get drunk somewhere.

He was at Ostagar and fought too, the only reason he didn't die with them was Flemeth. He actually regrets being one to survive.

I don't know, i don't really buy this whole spitting on sacrifice idea thing because it seems to completely ignore he puts lot of effort to get things done after Ostagar, pretty much as much as the player's Warden does. it's like because he's eventually driven to point where he breaks and calls it quits all he's done up to that point doesn't matter at all, and i just can't agree with that (and if none of what he's done matters, why does it matter if he's there at the end?)

[CalJones]

That's the thing...Ostagar was a mess but who's to say that Loghain was actually wrong to retreat? It's possible that his actions could actually have saved lives and prevented the entire army from being wiped out. We don't know, however - we have no way of knowing. There are a lot of theories, pro- and anti-Loghain, but that's all they are.

Yet it's this - not the fact Loghain takes Howe as an advisor, or has Eamon poisoned, or sells elves - that Alistair has issue with. Alistair has survivor's guilt, plain and simple. He wants someone to blame and Loghain is the easy target. His hatred for Loghain consumes him as surely as Loghain's hatred for Orlais has consumed him. Both characters are flawed, but at least Loghain mans up and accepts his duty, whilst Alistair runs away from it.

I understand the view that Alistair will run away from the PC he thinks he's in love with because her descision makes him question whether he knew her at all. At the same time, I'd be more inclined to think, well, if you don't have it in your heart to show mercy, then you're not someone I can be with either.

[Costin_Razvan]

but the point is whether he should be executed for trying to leave to go get drunk somewhere right before everyone runs off to Redcliffe to face the Blight because he's not King and he doesn't get his way about Loghain.

I don't believe he does. Then again I stand by the belief that only a single being has the right to give out death sentences, and that is God. To become judge of others is to elevate yourself to godhod, and for a believer like me is nothing I cannot do ( at least in the playthrough I feel the most connected with )



It is why in my dwarf noble playthrough, I made choices to try and save as many lives as I could. Sure my DN killed Trian, but only because Gorim told me it would stop a lot of unnecessary deaths later on.

[DalishRanger]

Not going to get involved in the current debate/discussion, but in regards to the OP...



I like Alistair well enough, despite his flaws. Prefer him as a "best buddy" to my male characters than as a romance, though. I am a little tired of all the fandom focus on him in art and fiction, but I'm not surprised at all he's got an ocean of fangirls. I try to separate that view from my opinion of the character himself.

[sylvanaerie]

It would seem it boils down to the player's perspective on things. What Loghain did opened all of Ferelden up to being overwhelmed by the darkspawn. No Loggy wasn't a Gray Warden but he did have a charge (as general of its armies) to defend it. And he took his army with him. At the point Alistair walks away he is just one man.

Arguments that Loghain regretted what happened (and I know this to be so as I have seen the UTube videos of Loghain) are a non issue if you ignore that Alistair will come to regret his decision (if he becomes an exile vs executed). In order to appreciate both points of view you can't say one's actions are forgivable and the other is so completely heinous you won't consider any other fate.

That said I DO always kill Loghain but as I pointed out in an earlier post its because for me thats the most fun. I won't try to post a logical argument to spare or queen of hearts him. Just as I won't try to post a reason to spare or kill Alistair. I just see it as a double standard that Loghain gets away with so much and Alistair's departure hurts only himself yet people argue quite animatedly that Alistair's actions are so much more heinous.

Is one man going to make THAT much difference in the battle as opposed to a general and his army?

[Sarah1281]

Is one man going to make THAT much difference in the battle as opposed to a general and his army?

When that one man is one of four GW available to stop a Blight then I'd have to say yes. Even though you don't know why yet, you still know that GW are very important and him leaving for personal reasons is irresponsible.

I don't know, i don't really buy this whole spitting on sacrifice idea thing because it seems to completely ignore he puts lot of effort to get things done after Ostagar, pretty much as much as the player's Warden does. it's like because he's eventually driven to point where he breaks and calls it quits all he's done up to that point doesn't matter at all, and i just can't agree with that (and if none of what he's done matters, why does it matter if he's there at the end?)

Of course what he's done up until that point matters but if he doesn't follow through then it might as well all be for nothing. If he walks away and everyone dies bcause, say, Loghain dies in the Joinin and Riordan dies grounding the Archdemon then it's one GW against an Archdemon. Sure she has allies but those allies are, frankly, expendableat that point and if she dies its game over. He should have at least stayed Eamon's forces even if he wanted nothing more to do with the PC as Eamon had nothing to do with sparing Loghain. No one could really blame him for doing whatever after the Blight was defeated but before then he abandoned everyone and forsook his duty. Regardless about whether he cares about anything at all in Ferelden (and he claimed to care about Eamon and the rest of the Arl's family but he left them to die just as easily as everyone else) when he agreed to be a GW (and he wasn't conscripted becaus he refused to go but because the Revered Mother was being difficult) and his ONLY duty was to end the Blight.

[Posioned]

It seems (at least on these boards) that Alistair tends to get a lot of flack for what he does over some other characters. Now if you want to think of these characters are simply people. Grey Warden or not he let his emotions get the best of him. So in a way you can say that while his tantrum at the Landsmeet was pretty bad, he's just human and regardless of senses of duty or honor emotions can get the best of someone. Although at the same time I think things tend to be overanalyzed a little too much as well. (Not sure if I'm explaining myself well, but there it is)

Also while I may be a Alistair "fan girl" I don't hate Loghain. Sometimes I actually wish I could of forgo the killing of him, but without him joining my party. But that's a whole other topic.

[tmp7704]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Of course what he's done up until that point matters but if he doesn't follow through then it might as well all be for nothing. If he walks away and everyone dies bcause, say, Loghain dies in the Joinin and Riordan dies grounding the Archdemon then it's one GW against an Archdemon.

Hmm i guess we'll just have different view on this. I mean, the what-ifs are fun but then we might as well say -- "if it wasn't for Alistair being there the PC would've been dead already" and there's no way to verify it one way or the other, either.

So with this in mind i just can't really blame him that he actually reaches a point (mentally) past which he simply cannot go on, nor i think his fellow Wardens would blame him for that. We all have our limits --physical and mental-- and if he's hit his (largely thanks to the player) then so be it, i'd rather be grateful for all he'd done up to that point than get all spiteful he couldn't do even more.

[Tirigon]

Aisynia wrote...

Was leaving an army to die at the hands of the darkspawn worse than rape? Boy, that is a question I am not qualified to answer.

Both crimes deserve only one punishment: Death. And that´s because I think torture is against human rights, otherwise I would think up something worse.

[Sarah1281]

tmp7704 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Of course what he's done up until that point matters but if he doesn't follow through then it might as well all be for nothing. If he walks away and everyone dies bcause, say, Loghain dies in the Joinin and Riordan dies grounding the Archdemon then it's one GW against an Archdemon.

Hmm i guess we'll just have different view on this. I mean, the what-ifs are fun but then we might as well say -- "if it wasn't for Alistair being there the PC would've been dead already" and there's no way to verify it one way or the other, either.

Alistair leaves before he finds out if Loghain survives and given how ineffectual Riordan has been up until this point and how long he's been imprisoned...yeah, he pretty much just leaves the PC holding the bag. And does one person's decision about one life really justify letting an entire country fall? He could have easily lent his aid elsewhere in the battle like Riordan did.