234 réponses à ce sujet

[tmp7704]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Alistair leaves before he finds out if Loghain survives and given how ineffectual Riordan has been up until this point and how long he's been imprisoned...yeah, he pretty much just leaves the PC holding the bag. And does one person's decision about one life really justify letting an entire country fall? He could have easily lent his aid elsewhere in the battle like Riordan did.

Well, this can be easily reversed -- if having Alistair around is so crucial then, given how he feels about the whole Loghain affair, is Loghain worth risking the fate of whole country? This really gets down to the player being just as pigheaded about the issue as Alistair is, and just as much putting the need to have things their way first and foremost for dubious reasons.

[Tirigon]

So, for all the Alistair-haters, a few questions:



Do you hate Leliana for leaving when you defile the ashes?



Do you hate Wynne for doing the same?



Do you hate Shale for leaving when you kill Caridin?



Do you hate Morrigan for leaving if you refuse the dark ritual?



Do you hate Zevran for trying to kill you if his approval is too low when you meet the Crows?









In my opinion they do the same as Alistair - betraying you - or sometimes even worse when they try to kill you, but with much less reason.

Still I haven´t seen threads about hating them for that yet.



Curious, isn´t it?

[ejoslin]

I think the major difference is Alistair is a gray warden. Everyone else, it's personal. They are not obligated to join you, and have their own motivations.

Edit: I thought it was sad when Lel left my character since she was at 100 love.
I thought it was funny when Wynne attacked.  I really did.  I guess she was not as strong as she thought.
Shale has never left me.
Zevran has never betrayed me, but that one is actually pretty understandable because he has to not even like you.  I mean, seriously, how hard is it to get +26 approval?

Modifié par ejoslin, 23 avril 2010 - 08:44 .

[Sarah1281]

Tirigon wrote...

So, for all the Alistair-haters, a few questions:

Do you hate Leliana for leaving when you defile the ashes?

I don't hate Alistair, I just hate his stupidity in this situation. I've only defiled the ashes once (for the achievement and reloaded) as the only possible rational reason I could think of to destroy such a potent curative would be to avoid strengthening the Chantry and killing Genitivi, sparing the dragon, or making Genitivi leave and then not visiting him serve the same function and I still have free access to the ashes should I need them later.

Do you hate Wynne for doing the same?

Aside from me not doing it, the one time I did Wynne deciding to attack you right there no matter what (hardened Leliana can be talked down) even though she believes you are the only one who can stop the Blight after she just stands back and watches you destroy the ashes is also very stupid. Even if she wins she won't bring the ashes back and Ferelden is doomed.

Do you hate Shale for leaving when you kill Caridin?

I lied to her about Caridin without the persuade option and even though I lost a lot of approval because she knew I was lying she still stayed. When she fights you for Caridin if she comes with you when you side with Branka at least she tries to stop you before and not too late like Wynne did.

Do you hate Morrigan for leaving if you refuse the dark ritual?

Not hate but dear God did it ****** me off. The final battle would have been a lot easier with her around. Just the same, it's not quite as bad as she isn't a Warden whose presence is required to end a Blight.

Do you hate Zevran for trying to kill you if his approval is too low when you meet the Crows?

If Zevran's approval is that low chances are you alredy hate him or are at least indifferent and people do. Oh people most certainly do.

In my opinion they do the same as Alistair - betraying you - or sometimes even worse when they try to kill you, but with much less reason.
Still I haven´t seen threads about hating them for that yet.

Curious, isn´t it?

You haven't seen the Justifying Zevran, Justifying Leliana, or Abominalbe Wynne threads? And I'm sure the others have their places.

[Reverie]

Totally off topic but I used to like Wynne but now she just annoys me to no end.

[Aisynia]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Arguments that Loghain regretted what happened (and I know this to be so as I have seen the UTube videos of Loghain) are a non issue if you ignore that Alistair will come to regret his decision (if he becomes an exile vs executed). In order to appreciate both points of view you can't say one's actions are forgivable and the other is so completely heinous you won't consider any other fate.

The thing is that Loghain, in his regret, is willing to take action to try and make up for his mistakes. He is perfectly willing to die in order to try and set things right. He DOES something. Something important.

Alistair on the other hand, wanders around drunk, useless, and pathetic. I can't speak for everyone else's characters, but if he felt so inclined, truly regretting running off like that, and regardless of his hatred for the deicion that was made, if he came back, he would have been forgiven.

Wandering around useless and pathetic versus someone actually taking accountability for their actions and willing to do anything to set it right?

Definitely a vast difference there.

That said I DO always kill Loghain but as I pointed out in an
earlier post its because for me thats the most fun. I won't try to post
a logical argument to spare or queen of hearts him. Just as I won't try
to post a reason to spare or kill Alistair. I just see it as a double
standard that Loghain gets away with so much and Alistair's departure
hurts only himself yet people argue quite animatedly that Alistair's
actions are so much more heinous.
Is one man going to make THAT much difference in the battle as opposed to a general and his army?

Loghain doesn't get away with anything. The Joining is an automatic death sentence, either now or later, and he was willing to go to any lengths and do whatever he had to in order to try and set tings right.

Alistair was on the other hand completely selfish in his actions.

That's why you are seeing that schism.

Modifié par Aisynia, 23 avril 2010 - 09:00 .

[Tirigon]

Sarah1281 wrote...

 I don't hate Alistair, I just hate his stupidity in this situation. I've only defiled the ashes once (for the achievement and reloaded) as the only possible rational reason I could think of to destroy such a potent curative would be to avoid strengthening the Chantry and killing Genitivi, sparing the dragon, or making Genitivi leave and then not visiting him serve the same function and I still have free access to the ashes should I need them later.

All right we get it. You´re religious. Answer my question maybe? (Btw, I see lots of reason why you should do everything to harm the Chantry, but let´s not discuss it or the thread will get lockdowned:crying:)

Do you hate Wynne for doing the same?

Aside from me not doing it, the one time I did Wynne deciding to attack you right there no matter what (hardened Leliana can be talked down) even though she believes you are the only one who can stop the Blight after she just stands back and watches you destroy the ashes is also very stupid. Even if she wins she won't bring the ashes back and Ferelden is doomed.

Glad we agree here.

I lied to her about Caridin without the persuade option and even though I lost a lot of approval because she knew I was lying she still stayed. When she fights you for Caridin if she comes with you when you side with Branka at least she tries to stop you before and not too late like Wynne did.

Nevertheless she tries to sabotage your mission by killing you, what is actually bad, while Alistair leaving doesn´t harm you at all (though, admittedly, you don´t know that without metagaming)

Not hate but dear God did it ****** me off. The final battle would have been a lot easier with her around. Just the same, it's not quite as bad as she isn't a Warden whose presence is required to end a Blight.

So Non-Wardens are allowed to quit but Alistair is not? Or am I understanding you wrong?

If Zevran's approval is that low chances are you alredy hate him or are at least indifferent and people do. Oh people most certainly do.

Point taken. Though I think it doesn´t really speak for Zevran. I mean, Alistair stays with you even at -100 Approval if he gets to kill Loghain.

[KnightofPhoenix]

tmp7704 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Because he was raised to give a **** about his nation. And he can't expect to defend Higherver if the whole kingdom collapses. And you speak as if Alistair created a philosophy for hismelf where he rationally determined that his own being is the most important thing in the world.

I'm just saying Alistair is lacking both your Warden's upbringing and these personal reasons to care -- he's not in charge of Highever, he has no subjects and no liege (the king he maybe was sworn to gets murdered essentially freeing him from obligations). Therefore i don't really see why your Warden expects him --along with every individual in the army-- to conform to the same ideals and viewpoint he personally does. It doesn't require invention of any specific philosophy from Alistair, and only basic empathy to understand.

He put himself under my cousland's command and is expected to fight to his last breath. he claimed he cared about Ferelden. Ask him at the very beginning that you should go to Orlais to seek reinforcements and see what he will tell you. he refuses to go there because he doesn't want to abandon Ferelden. either that, or hisrevenge was so great that he lied and all hewas thinkign about was killing loghain asap.

If it's the former, then Alsitair lost control of his emotions, which makes him a weakling.
If it's the latter, then he is a liar and I would consider him to be mentally unstalbe if his revenge is that great.

And all that is mostly irrelevent, as a commander, it's not my cousland's job to satisfy the vengeance o his underling, nor allow him to desert.

and who told you that I don't understand? I do. I still do nto find his desertion justified.

tmp7704 wrote...

And yet he does not honor the memory of the Wardens who are dead that he claims to love. And you expect me to really believe that hedoes love them? What would Duncan do it him ifhe saw him do this?

It's irrelevant what Duncan would do. Alistair is not Duncan, and he has his own idea how to honour the people he loved..

Then on what basis does he love Duncan? On what basis does he hate Loghain?
why the hell does he even call himself a Warden? Why does he believe that being a Warden is a "privilege" while he has no problems betraying his ideals and his people, by abadonign the fight against the blight?
Please, you are hanging at strawmens here.

 

He could disagree all he wants. That does not justify abandoning his people.
No where did I say that I care if Alsitair agrees with my wArden or not. What I am talking about is his desertion.

Why exactly him going "**** this" is the mentally unstable act here, as opposed to sticking with cause he no longer cares about, to protect people he either hates or who matter none to him?.

Then he should stick with his opinion and face the responsability of his desertion. Which is execution in my Cousland's books. No one told Alsitair to remain. No one told him to follow my Cousland. No one told him to remain in ferelden. So if he doesn't give a **** about all of that, why did he follow? revenge? Well Ferelden is more important than alistair's revenge for my Cousland.

Is that hard to understand?
No where did I claim that my Cousland's perspective is the only valid one.  

Pathetic reasoning. Loghain did not betray his nation. All he ever did was for Ferelden. And he retreated for political and military calculations. Loghain deserted his king, but he did not desert his nation. So my Cousland did not see him the same way he saw Alistair.

Then your Cousland is clearly letting his emotions cloud his judgement, because he's at the same claiming that it doesn't matter what an individual thinks, desertion and treason are acts which warrant death in Cousland's military... and at the same time waves that away when it comes to one individual, based purely on what he thinks that individual thinks. Suddenly what the individual thinks matters when in the other case it didn't?.

When did I say it doesn't matter? Read more carefully.
My Cousland took Alistair's reasons into consideration and saw them as not justifying treason and desertion at all. While Loghain's  retreat at Ostagar was justified in his eyes.

And how is his judgement affected when he is doing all this for efficiency's sake. His primary motivation is to get an extra Warden and an experienced general in a time of need. That's not emotion clouding reason.

Yes Loghain was in a position to act upon his military and political calculations.
A- he is a Teyrn 
B- he is Ferelden's greatest general
C- Cailan is an idiot, who wouldn't listen, My Cousland is not like him.

Also, it's very different situations.
A- Alistair is under my Cousland's command. Loghain is not.
B- Alistair is a Warden, further obligated to stand by his oath. Loghain is not.
C- Alsitair is deserting in front of my Cousland's eyes. Loghain was not. So he can act against Alistair, he could not with Loghain.
D- Loghain deserted his king, but did not desert his homeland. Furthermore, with the events of RTO, my Cousland believed the battle of Ostagar was lost and that Loghain made the right choice.
E- Loghain did not abandon his people and he remained to protect Ferelden. His retreat was a military calculation. One my Warden agrees with. Alistair's desertion is based on emotion, vengeance only. There was nothing to agree with. No planing, no political and military considerations.
F- Loghain is being conscripted to the Wardens as a punishment. Any criminal, no matter their crime, can be conscripted by the Wardens. Alistair was already a Warden and his desertion cannot be tolerated. If he wasn't a Warden, I would have conscripted him and made him immune to persecution.

Now instead of continuing to derail this thread, maybe you should realise that I never said my Cousland's perspective the the only right one. I never said other opinions are not valid. I never claimed that others are stupid for letting Alsitair live or for killing Loghain, as I believe all chocies are valid. I was simply stating my Cousland's logic. If you absolutely need to hate this logic, then do so, but let us stop derailing this thread.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 23 avril 2010 - 09:11 .

[Lady Jess]

Aisynia wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

Arguments that Loghain regretted what happened (and I know this to be so as I have seen the UTube videos of Loghain) are a non issue if you ignore that Alistair will come to regret his decision (if he becomes an exile vs executed). In order to appreciate both points of view you can't say one's actions are forgivable and the other is so completely heinous you won't consider any other fate.

The thing is that Loghain, in his regret, is willing to take action to try and make up for his mistakes. He is perfectly willing to die in order to try and set things right. He DOES something. Something important.

Alistair on the other hand, wanders around drunk, useless, and pathetic. I can't speak for everyone else's characters, but if he felt so inclined, truly regretting running off like that, and regardless of his hatred for the deicion that was made, if he came back, he would have been forgiven.

Wandering around useless and pathetic versus someone actually taking accountability for their actions and willing to do anything to set it right?

Definitely a vast difference there.

That said I DO always kill Loghain but as I pointed out in an
earlier post its because for me thats the most fun. I won't try to post
a logical argument to spare or queen of hearts him. Just as I won't try
to post a reason to spare or kill Alistair. I just see it as a double
standard that Loghain gets away with so much and Alistair's departure
hurts only himself yet people argue quite animatedly that Alistair's
actions are so much more heinous.
Is one man going to make THAT much difference in the battle as opposed to a general and his army?

Loghain doesn't get away with anything. The Joining is an automatic death sentence, either now or later, and he was willing to go to any lengths and do whatever he had to in order to try and set tings right.

Alistair was on the other hand completely selfish in his actions.

That's why you are seeing that schism.

Except, Loghain, after all his treachery gets to die a hero of Ferelden once more. That's the part I cannot stomach. Sure he gets his just desserts one way or another, but he still dies a hero.  I always felt like I was rewarding him for bad behaviour, I spared him once, and never again.

[Aisynia]

RGC_Ines wrote...

hmm.. I like Alistair, and I liked him as a LI for my naive HNF, but now I prefer Ser Gilmore as a LI ( for all my chars) and new companions from RTKW mod, so Alistair & others stuck in the camp...

RTKW?

[Tirigon]

Aisynia wrote...

RTKW?

Return to Korcari Wilds.

A new quite promising quest mod that adds a few companions, too.

[Aisynia]

Lady Jess wrote...

Aisynia wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

Arguments that Loghain regretted what happened (and I know this to be so as I have seen the UTube videos of Loghain) are a non issue if you ignore that Alistair will come to regret his decision (if he becomes an exile vs executed). In order to appreciate both points of view you can't say one's actions are forgivable and the other is so completely heinous you won't consider any other fate.

The thing is that Loghain, in his regret, is willing to take action to try and make up for his mistakes. He is perfectly willing to die in order to try and set things right. He DOES something. Something important.

Alistair on the other hand, wanders around drunk, useless, and pathetic. I can't speak for everyone else's characters, but if he felt so inclined, truly regretting running off like that, and regardless of his hatred for the deicion that was made, if he came back, he would have been forgiven.

Wandering around useless and pathetic versus someone actually taking accountability for their actions and willing to do anything to set it right?

Definitely a vast difference there.

That said I DO always kill Loghain but as I pointed out in an
earlier post its because for me thats the most fun. I won't try to post
a logical argument to spare or queen of hearts him. Just as I won't try
to post a reason to spare or kill Alistair. I just see it as a double
standard that Loghain gets away with so much and Alistair's departure
hurts only himself yet people argue quite animatedly that Alistair's
actions are so much more heinous.
Is one man going to make THAT much difference in the battle as opposed to a general and his army?

Loghain doesn't get away with anything. The Joining is an automatic death sentence, either now or later, and he was willing to go to any lengths and do whatever he had to in order to try and set tings right.

Alistair was on the other hand completely selfish in his actions.

That's why you are seeing that schism.

Except, Loghain, after all his treachery gets to die a hero of Ferelden once more. That's the part I cannot stomach. Sure he gets his just desserts one way or another, but he still dies a hero.  I always felt like I was rewarding him for bad behaviour, I spared him once, and never again.

If he does something heroic, then he deserves to be called a hero. While some of his actions may be reprehensible, they don't take away the importance of what he did if he sacrificed himself.

It's called redemption.

Of course, there is a line you cross whereby you can no longer be redeemed in my eyes, but Loghain never crossed it.

[Sarah1281]

All right we get it. You´re religious. Answer my question maybe? (Btw, I see lots of reason why you should do everything to harm the Chantry, but let´s not discuss it or the thread will get lockdowned)

Me? Religious? That's funny. In the game I subscribe to the theory that the ashes are powered by the lyrium they're sitting on top of, Andraste was a mage using the local people's superstitions as a way to gain the power to go against the Imperium, and if the Maker does exist he's evil. The Chantry doesn't believe that the ashes are still around, they never find out that you destroy them, and there are three different ways to stop them from finding out about them anyway (killing/ditching Genitivi and sparing the dragon). If hardened (which she always is) or not there, Leliana can be talked into staying and if not she attacks afterwards so it's just as pointless as Wynne's attack. The reason I don't want the ashes destroyed is because they are very powerful and defiling them is a waste.

Nevertheless she tries to sabotage your mission by killing you, what is actually bad, while Alistair leaving doesn´t harm you at all (though, admittedly, you don´t know that without metagaming)

Alistair is a GW sworn to protect against the Blight while Shale's following you because she has nothing better to do, wants to crush squishy things, and thinks darkspawn are evil but not as bad as birds. I can forgive her for walking away from the Blight easier than a GW.

Not hate but dear God did it ****** me off. The final battle would have been a lot easier with her around. Just the same, it's not quite as bad as she isn't a Warden whose presence is required to end a Blight.

So Non-Wardens are allowed to quit but Alistair is not? Or am I understanding you wrong?

Game-wise you don't get an option to kill her and non-Wardens are not obligated to end the Blight like Wardens are.

If Zevran's approval is that low chances are you alredy hate him or are at least indifferent and people do. Oh people most certainly do.

Point taken. Though I think it doesn´t really speak for Zevran. I mean, Alistair stays with you even at -100 Approval if he gets to kill Loghain.

And he explains that this is because as a GW he needs to hang around to end the Blight...unless you spare Loghain.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 23 avril 2010 - 09:18 .

[tmp7704]

ejoslin wrote...

Zevran has never betrayed me, but that one is actually pretty understandable because he has to not even like you.  I mean, seriously, how hard is it to get +26 approval?

Depends if you shower them with gifts or just leave it to the dialogue choices to affect their approval   for example, going the latter route i had Alistair barely past 30 until pretty much the end of the game, and he ended at 40 or so. That said i didn't have problem with getting Zevran to acceptance point, but it made bit more sense for city elf to pay more attention to the only other elf in the group.

Modifié par tmp7704, 23 avril 2010 - 10:13 .

[Sarah1281]

tmp7704 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Zevran has never betrayed me, but that one is actually pretty understandable because he has to not even like you.  I mean, seriously, how hard is it to get +26 approval?

Depends if you shower them with gifts or just leave it to the dialogue choices to affect their approval   for example, going the latter route i had Alistair barely past 30 until pretty much the end of the game, and he ended at 40 or so. That said i didn't have problem with getting Zevran to acceptance point, but it made bit more sense for city elf to pay more attention to the only other elf in the group.

I think it makes sense for anyone to pay close attention to the assassin hired to kill them that they're letting follow them around if only to make sure he doesn't get another shot. 

[tmp7704]

That's a valid point too

[aliastasia]

I really liked the character on the first playthrough.

Second playthrough I found him passive aggressive - when he left over letting Loghain live, despite my level 4 coercion skills and cunning, and blaming it on the taint/procreation, and not on letting Loghain live was rather dastardly.

On my current, third (now) I decided to see if there was a "Camp Tramp" achievement, so I'm romancing what I can, and so far I have to admit Zevran is the most fun one - he had me at "sex is best when done well", which would be a welcome relief from groping puppies ;-)

I have to say though, you can tell he's been written by a guy: If the Alistair story arc had been written by a woman, all the women in camp would be shooting daggers at him with their eyes after the breakup, he'd sustain damage, and both Wynne and Leiliana would offer consolement and offers of wanting to talk about it. Morrigan would just be happy it was over and wouldm if your like-level was high enough, probably devise an Alistair doll all of her own, and give it to you, complete with needles...  

I also have to agree with the others in the thread - superb voice acting :-)

/A
//typofix, clarification

Modifié par aliastasia, 23 avril 2010 - 10:20 .

[Dark Lilith]

He acts like an adult child,I prefer Zevran or one of the ladies myself

[Tirigon]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Me? Religious? That's funny. In the game I subscribe to the theory that the ashes are powered by the lyrium they're sitting on top of, Andraste was a mage using the local people's superstitions as a way to gain the power to go against the Imperium, and if the Maker does exist he's evil. The Chantry doesn't believe that the ashes are still around, they never find out that you destroy them, and there are three different ways to stop them from finding out about them anyway (killing/ditching Genitivi and sparing the dragon). If hardened (which she always is) or not there, Leliana can be talked into staying and if not she attacks afterwards so it's just as pointless as Wynne's attack. The reason I don't want the ashes destroyed is because they are very powerful and defiling them is a waste.

Ok I misunderstood you then. An acceptable way to look at it, though personally I think the ashes are worth more when they are defiled. After all, who´s to say the dragon won´t actually come to help you?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Tirigon wrote...
Ok I misunderstood you then. An acceptable way to look at it, though personally I think the ashes are worth more when they are defiled. After all, who´s to say the dragon won´t actually come to help you?

Actually, I do wish one could recruit the Dragon Cult into the army. It would have been awesome. One special ability could be to summon a fireball from andraste or something.

It might have given me some reason to consider defiling the ashes (as currently, I see little reason to do so personally).

[rak72]

Loghain was suppose to have the warden's back at Ostagar. As far as you and Al know at this point, Log completely ditched the GWs & his son-in-law at Ost. How can you call his reaction to keeping Log stupid? It is the most logical reaction there is. How do you know Log won't throw you under the bus,again, when you are face to face with the arch demon? And as far as running off when you take Log, he could justify this by reasoning that at least there will still be one GW left when Log stabs you in the back again.

Modifié par rak72, 23 avril 2010 - 11:43 .

[Tirigon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Tirigon wrote...
Ok I misunderstood you then. An acceptable way to look at it, though personally I think the ashes are worth more when they are defiled. After all, who´s to say the dragon won´t actually come to help you?

Actually, I do wish one could recruit the Dragon Cult into the army. It would have been awesome. One special ability could be to summon a fireball from andraste or something.

It might have given me some reason to consider defiling the ashes (as currently, I see little reason to do so personally).

Yea, having a band of Religious fanatics would be great. I would ally them with Werewolfes and Golems to unleash destruction on all infidels, birds and people who taste well.

But if you need a reason to defile the ashes, what about those:
- another Chance to kill Wynne.
- proving your independence from Chantry indoctrination
- pissing off that idiot Genitivi