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[soignee]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


It might have given me some reason to consider defiling the ashes (as currently, I see little reason to do so personally).

Yeah not even my Brosca would do that, despite her seething resentment for the chantry.

[Cuddlezarro]

Tirigon wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Tirigon wrote...
Ok I misunderstood you then. An acceptable way to look at it, though personally I think the ashes are worth more when they are defiled. After all, who´s to say the dragon won´t actually come to help you?

Actually, I do wish one could recruit the Dragon Cult into the army. It would have been awesome. One special ability could be to summon a fireball from andraste or something.

It might have given me some reason to consider defiling the ashes (as currently, I see little reason to do so personally).

Yea, having a band of Religious fanatics would be great. I would ally them with Werewolfes and Golems to unleash destruction on all infidels, birds and people who taste well.

But if you need a reason to defile the ashes, what about those:
- another Chance to kill Wynne.
- proving your independence from Chantry indoctrination
- pissing off that idiot Genitivi
- Chance to kill Leliena

added another option~

[Radahldo]

I would've liked fighting along side them. Their Aura of Pain would've been nice against all the grunt darkspawn.

Although, other than defiling a useful curative, I don't like the idea of having some sort of psychic link to them and isnt that what Kolgrim alludes to?

Modifié par Radahldo, 23 avril 2010 - 11:51 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

rak72 wrote...

Loghain was suppose to have the warden's back at Ostagar. As far as you and Al know at this point, Log completely ditched the GWs & his son-in-law at Ost. How can you call his reaction to keeping Log stupid? It is the most logical reaction there is. How do you know Log won't throw you under the bus,again, when you are face to face with the arch demon? And as far as running off when you take Log, he could justify this by reasoning that at least there will still be one GW left when Log stabs you in the back again.

That's a stretch to assume that Loghain would betray us right in front of the Archdemon, for several reasons.

A-. Loghain realises he was wrong and that the Warden is the only person who can save Ferelden. That's why he is willing to die peacefully, knowing someone better than him will protect Ferelden. Or is willing to follow.
Loghain's initial betrayal is to protect Ferelden and now it's clear that saving Ferelden requires him to follow the Warden.
B- Loghain has no army anymore. No title. And has been overthrown at the landsmeet. He has little power to be able to orchastrate a betrayal. 
C- Loghain would have become a Warden and that's probably the most important thing. He can finally know why the Wardens are necessary. It wouldn't make sense for him to betray them once he knows.

If Alistair truly thought Loghain would betray them again, then he sadly misjudged him and was blinded by hatred. 

As for him leaving in order to ensure that one WArden remains alive. Ha, he never said that. Nothing points to him doing that. And the epilogue shows what he's become. So that was never part of his resoning. 
And if it was, it was pretty stupid. There were Wardens just near the border, so the "I must survive" argument doesn't really hold. Second, if he truly was afraid that Loghain would betray his commander, the only hope for Ferelden, then he would have remained there and watched for his comrade's back and not run away.

But he clearly doesn't desert for this reason. His reason was clear, he can't fight with Loghain and he wants him dead. That's it. There were no other reasons.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Tirigon wrote...
Yea, having a band of Religious fanatics would be great. I would ally them with Werewolfes and Golems to unleash destruction on all infidels, birds and people who taste well.

But if you need a reason to defile the ashes, what about those:
- another Chance to kill Wynne.
- proving your independence from Chantry indoctrination
- pissing off that idiot Genitivi

- I prefer to ****** Wynne off. Somehow it's more gratifying.
- The Chantry is a useful tool and and the ashes can make Ferelden into a pilgrimage site, which will provde economic benefits and maybe start waekenign Orlai's hold of the Chantry. Not to mention that I may need to use these ashes in the future. So no, not a strong enough reason.
- I like Genitivi.

[Reaverwind]

rak72 wrote...

Loghain was suppose to have the warden's back at Ostagar. As far as you and Al know at this point, Log completely ditched the GWs & his son-in-law at Ost. How can you call his reaction to keeping Log stupid? It is the most logical reaction there is. How do you know Log won't throw you under the bus,again, when you are face to face with the arch demon? And as far as running off when you take Log, he could justify this by reasoning that at least there will still be one GW left when Log stabs you in the back again.

I consider the Landsmeet starting from where Riordan steps in as some of the most contrived writing in the history of gaming. Loghain doing an about-face in attitude because his ass got kicked? Riordan stepping in with an alternative without an aside to enlighten the junior Wardens? Alistair's ooc desertion if you decide to make the leap of faith to have Loghain join the team because the developers arbitrarily decide you can't have both? The way I RP it - if I'm not given sufficient justification have Loghain on the team (and I'm not), I'm going with the companion I'm certain of. I don't give a rat's ass about redemption - that's the Chantry's business - as a Warden, my business is fighting the damned war.

[rak72]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

rak72 wrote...

Loghain was suppose to have the warden's back at Ostagar. As far as you and Al know at this point, Log completely ditched the GWs & his son-in-law at Ost. How can you call his reaction to keeping Log stupid? It is the most logical reaction there is. How do you know Log won't throw you under the bus,again, when you are face to face with the arch demon? And as far as running off when you take Log, he could justify this by reasoning that at least there will still be one GW left when Log stabs you in the back again.

That's a stretch to assume that Loghain would betray us right in front of the Archdemon, for several reasons.

A-. Loghain realises he was wrong and that the Warden is the only person who can save Ferelden. That's why he is willing to die peacefully, knowing someone better than him will protect Ferelden. Or is willing to follow.
Loghain's initial betrayal is to protect Ferelden and now it's clear that saving Ferelden requires him to follow the Warden.
B- Loghain has no army anymore. No title. And has been overthrown at the landsmeet. He has little power to be able to orchastrate a betrayal. 
C- Loghain would have become a Warden and that's probably the most important thing. He can finally know why the Wardens are necessary. It wouldn't make sense for him to betray them once he knows.

If Alistair truly thought Loghain would betray them again, then he sadly misjudged him and was blinded by hatred. 

As for him leaving in order to ensure that one WArden remains alive. Ha, he never said that. Nothing points to him doing that. And the epilogue shows what he's become. So that was never part of his resoning. 
And if it was, it was pretty stupid. There were Wardens just near the border, so the "I must survive" argument doesn't really hold. Second, if he truly was afraid that Loghain would betray his commander, the only hope for Ferelden, then he would have remained there and watched for his comrade's back and not run away.

But he clearly doesn't desert for this reason. His reason was clear, he can't fight with Loghain and he wants him dead. That's it. There were no other reasons.

If it were real life, I wouldn't trust him.

[KnightofPhoenix]

rak72 wrote...
If it were real life, I wouldn't trust him.

That's of course a very valid opinion.
And Loghain dies understanding that.

I've always said that all decisions pertaining to Loghains' fate are valid (and forgive me if I sometimes fail to show this well. I realise I can sound a bit arrogant).

[rak72]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

rak72 wrote...
If it were real life, I wouldn't trust him.

That's of course a very valid opinion.
And Loghain dies understanding that.

I've always said that all decisions pertaining to Loghains' fate are valid (and forgive me if I sometimes fail to show this well. I realise I can sound a bit arrogant).

 I don't think you are arrogant about it - I've seen you play devil's advocate both ways, you are very reasonable about the situation.  You are one of the few people who can see why both sides react as they do. We all have our prefrences, and thats cool.  It's when people call Al a douchbag after Log's people tried killing you in Loath (2x), Orz, Den(2x), assasinated, probably other times I'm not thinking of ... this is what gets on my nerves.  I think his reaction is completly justifiable - if people prefer Log, and want to keep him, fine  but don't get indignant when the friend you stabbed in the back gets pissy with you.

[KnightofPhoenix]

rak72 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

rak72 wrote...
If it were real life, I wouldn't trust him.

That's of course a very valid opinion.
And Loghain dies understanding that.

I've always said that all decisions pertaining to Loghains' fate are valid (and forgive me if I sometimes fail to show this well. I realise I can sound a bit arrogant).

 I don't think you are arrogant about it - I've seen you play devil's advocate both ways, you are very reasonable about the situation.  You are one of the few people who can see why both sides react as they do. We all have our prefrences, and thats cool.  It's when people call Al a douchbag after Log's people tried killing you in Loath (2x), Orz, Den(2x), assasinated, probably other times I'm not thinking of ... this is what gets on my nerves.  I think his reaction is completly justifiable - if people prefer Log, and want to keep him, fine  but don't get indignant when the friend you stabbed in the back gets pissy with you.

Thank you. I personally never hated Alistair (despite what many think and tried to show). And I do not think he is a wimp and a douchebag (I do joke about it of course, but it's just joking).

I just think that his reaction in the landsmeet is excessive and irrational. Being very distrutful of Loghain is natural and prudent. Being annoyed at the PC is also a natural reaction. But leaving Ferelden and its people to die and abandoning the fight? I personally think that's excessive and goes way more than just getting "pissy with us". But that's just me.

All choices are valid depending on how you play and from my Cousland's perspective, agreeing to Alistair and not executing him would have been out-character and wouldnt' have made much sense. That's all I said at first and I stressed it's from my Cousland's perspective only before I got bombarded with angry posts.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 avril 2010 - 12:43 .

[Mlai00]

Cuddlezarro wrote...

I also seem to notice how ever one of the women except ramante has a dwarf avatar hmmm... possible connection?

If you've had any experience with WoW, you'd know that preference for elves and (to a slightly lesser extent) humans directly correlates with worthlessness on the Darwin Scale.

[Aisynia]

Mlai00 wrote...

Cuddlezarro wrote...

I also seem to notice how ever one of the women except ramante has a dwarf avatar hmmm... possible connection?

If you've had any experience with WoW, you'd know that preference for elves and (to a slightly lesser extent) humans directly correlates with worthlessness on the Darwin Scale.

Well don't I feel warm and fuzzy.

[CalJones]

Heh, I don't think we can compare DA:O with WoW. After all, we know all female elves in WoW are played by prepubescent boys who just want to make them dance naked while they spank their monkey.

Did I ever mention how I despise WoW?

[Sannox]

I don't hate Alistair but he is a little too immature and self-centred for a love interest. And after playing through, the Landsmeet is a big turn off, whether or not you spare Loghain. He seemed to complain whatever my characters did.

[Tirigon]

Cuddlezarro wrote...


- Chance to kill Leliena


added another option~

Yea, didn´t mention that on purpose cause for me it is actually the only reason I have NOT to defile the ashes.

[Tirigon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


Thank you. I personally never hated Alistair (despite what many think and tried to show). And I do not think he is a wimp and a douchebag (I do joke about it of course, but it's just joking).

I just think that his reaction in the landsmeet is excessive and irrational. Being very distrutful of Loghain is natural and prudent. Being annoyed at the PC is also a natural reaction. But leaving Ferelden and its people to die and abandoning the fight? I personally think that's excessive and goes way more than just getting "pissy with us". But that's just me.

All choices are valid depending on how you play and from my Cousland's perspective, agreeing to Alistair and not executing him would have been out-character and wouldnt' have made much sense. That's all I said at first and I stressed it's from my Cousland's perspective only before I got bombarded with angry posts.

These are all valid points. Unfortunately you often write in a way (intentional or not) that makes people (including me) think you DO hate Alistair, thus giving the impression you act simply because you have a chance to kill a guy you didn´t like anyways.

[Lowenhart]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Lowenhart wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
If my main playthrough was a HN and I spent the game plotting Howe's death or a CE that was pissed about the whole slavery thing then maybe I'd have to be more tolerant to avoid being a hypocrite.

Would a HN abandon his nation if Howe was made a Warden? If not, then it's not hypocracy at all to be revolted from Alistair's tantrum.

Theres a huge difference thou KoP in the fact that Loghain did what he thought was right for Ferelden, and show penance for what he has done, However Howe only ever did anything in his own interest and what would give him more influence and power, and he never showed any remorse for anything he did.

Of course there is a huge difference between Howe and Loghain. But my point was this. Would an HN allow vengeance to cloud reason and would he abandon his nation because of one man?
If he wouldn't do so, then it's not hypocritical to despise Alistair's actions. And the HN has A LOT more reason to hate Howe.

Yes true, i was just pointing out theres a huge difference in wanting a man dead who admitted he was wrong and shows some manner of penance for what his done, and a man who shows no whatsoever remorse for anything his done, i was pointing out it takes a rather different mind set to put one to death knowing this.

And personally i think Aliaster lets his emotions cloud his judgement, and i think if he took a breath and thought about what Duncan would have done, then i am sure Duncan would have let Loghain live, and let him take the ritual.

[Tirigon]

Lowenhart wrote...


Yes true, i was just pointing out theres a huge difference in wanting a man dead who admitted he was wrong and shows some manner of penance for what his done, and a man who shows no whatsoever remorse for anything his done, i was pointing out it takes a rather different mind set to put one to death knowing this.

But Loghain doesn´t show remorse until you decided whether he should live or die. If he´d regretted his actions before I might think different about him, but as it is I interpreted his acceptance more as Dying without loosing your last bit of honor than as regret.

And personally i think Aliaster lets his emotions cloud his judgement, and i think if he took a breath and thought about what Duncan would have done, then i am sure Duncan would have let Loghain live, and let him take the ritual.

This is probably true. But why is Alistair always limited to what Duncan would have done? If he acts differently that shows that he is at least growing up istead of continuing about "Duncan this, Duncan that, I love my daddy - eh, Duncan.." and all that blablaba.

[CalJones]

Well it's not like you have the chance to have any deep and meaningful conversations with him before the Landsmeet...he certainly looks troubled in his cutscenes and judging by the dark circles I don't think he's sleeping much. But as Anora says, he's committed to his course and he'll continue onward even if it leads straight off a cliff. Landsmeet is the wake-up call he needs. Until that point he thinks the weight of Fereldan rests upon his shoulders, and his alone, and he'll do whatever it takes, however distasteful, to save it. Then everyone turns against him, the Warden defeats him in a duel and suddenly he's all "crap, I screwed up!"

At that point it's up to you how you deal with him, but if you keep him alive and talk to him in a reasonable manner he will admit he has done terrible things and wants to atone.

Unfortunately, in Alistair's case, you don't get chance to speak to him again properly if you spare Loghain - he's still pissy with you at the coronation (if he marries Anora). So you aren't around to see any regret on his side. David Gaider has said Alistair does come to regret his actions, but there's no evidence of it in game so the last impression we get is the kid who threw his toys out of the pram.

I guess if you don't want to see that side of him then you have to execute Loghain (but maybe it's lurking in the shadows, waiting for the day you tread on his favourite action figure...)

[KnightofPhoenix]

Tirigon wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


Thank you. I personally never hated Alistair (despite what many think and tried to show). And I do not think he is a wimp and a douchebag (I do joke about it of course, but it's just joking).

I just think that his reaction in the landsmeet is excessive and irrational. Being very distrutful of Loghain is natural and prudent. Being annoyed at the PC is also a natural reaction. But leaving Ferelden and its people to die and abandoning the fight? I personally think that's excessive and goes way more than just getting "pissy with us". But that's just me.

All choices are valid depending on how you play and from my Cousland's perspective, agreeing to Alistair and not executing him would have been out-character and wouldnt' have made much sense. That's all I said at first and I stressed it's from my Cousland's perspective only before I got bombarded with angry posts.

These are all valid points. Unfortunately you often write in a way (intentional or not) that makes people (including me) think you DO hate Alistair, thus giving the impression you act simply because you have a chance to kill a guy you didn´t like anyways.

Yes I realise I can sound aggressive. But the truth is that I do not hate Alistair. I think he is a great character and a sympathetic person, despite his flaws. But I do not find him to be the most interesting and I do not like him as much as I do others. But that's tastes.
I do not dislike him however. The only person I can say I dislike is Wynne.

And I never act on simple emotion like disliking. Alistair gave me a reason to execute him and it brough no amount pleasure.

[Aisynia]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


Thank you. I personally never hated Alistair (despite what many think and tried to show). And I do not think he is a wimp and a douchebag (I do joke about it of course, but it's just joking).

I just think that his reaction in the landsmeet is excessive and irrational. Being very distrutful of Loghain is natural and prudent. Being annoyed at the PC is also a natural reaction. But leaving Ferelden and its people to die and abandoning the fight? I personally think that's excessive and goes way more than just getting "pissy with us". But that's just me.

All choices are valid depending on how you play and from my Cousland's perspective, agreeing to Alistair and not executing him would have been out-character and wouldnt' have made much sense. That's all I said at first and I stressed it's from my Cousland's perspective only before I got bombarded with angry posts.

These are all valid points. Unfortunately you often write in a way (intentional or not) that makes people (including me) think you DO hate Alistair, thus giving the impression you act simply because you have a chance to kill a guy you didn´t like anyways.

Yes I realise I can sound aggressive. But the truth is that I do not hate Alistair. I think he is a great character and a sympathetic person, despite his flaws. But I do not find him to be the most interesting and I do not like him as much as I do others. But that's tastes.
I do not dislike him however. The only person I can say I dislike is Wynne.

And I never act on simple emotion like disliking. Alistair gave me a reason to execute him and it brough no amount pleasure.

I'm with you, except on Wynne. I don't dislike Wynne, I dislike the options we are given to respond to her with. A LOT of her conversations could be a lot LOT more intelligent, interesting, and even enlightening if we were simply given better responses. We are forced to act like a naive idiot or a brat.

I refuse to blame the character herself for that.

The character herself, her motivations, her demeanor.. that doesn't bother me at all. She's old and nosey, but she means no harm. She is JUST trying to help, nothing more. Even greater, she is willing to admit when she's wrong, and she actually APOLOGIZES. Wow.

My loathing for interacting with her comes in the responses I am alotted, not her actual dialogue.

[soignee]

I can't romance Alistair anymore, it's too exhausting. Actually. all my playthroughs now no one romances anyone, no idea why. My brain is all NO THANKS LOL DONE THAT.

[Tirigon]

I just thought about the matter a bit and I wonder:

What if Alistair doesn´t leave you because of his rage but because he isn´t needed anymore?



I mean, Loghain is (no matter how much I hate him) definitely more intelligent and a better fighter than Alistair.



So Alistair can leave without doing any harm because we don´t need him anymore.



Hell, if it wasn´t for the need of someone to die (We don´t know about the Dark Ritual at this point yet) we wouldn´t need him at all in the party, and now that Loghain is there to take the final blow his departure harms noone (except, funnily, him, but that´s his business).

[Sarah1281]

I mean, Loghain is (no matter how much I hate him) definitely more intelligent and a better fighter than Alistair.

A big part of Riordan's pitch to recruit Loghain is: there are only three of us That's really bad odds. Four is still bad odds but slightly better. Alistair is sure as hell not 'unnecessary' at this point. He's still needed until the Archdemon is slain.

[Korva]

Reaverwind wrote...

I consider the Landsmeet starting from where Riordan steps in as some of the most contrived writing in the history of gaming.

Agreed. Except that I think the inanity starts earlier, once the nobles have cast their vote and violence erupts, one way or another. It makes all player efforts and conduct totally meaningless, and turns the Landsmeet into a complete farce.

Loghain doing an about-face in attitude because his ass got kicked? Riordan stepping in with an alternative without an aside to enlighten the junior Wardens? Alistair's ooc desertion if you decide to make the leap of faith to have Loghain join the team because the developers arbitrarily decide you can't have both? The way I RP it - if I'm not given sufficient justification have Loghain on the team (and I'm not), I'm going with the companion I'm certain of. I don't give a rat's ass about redemption - that's the Chantry's business - as a Warden, my business is fighting the damned war.

Again, full agreement.

I want to like Riordan, but his writing is either badly done, or he is someone who is extremely irresponsible and enjoys keeping people in the dark far too much. He knows there are only three Wardens in Ferelden. He knows Alistair and especially the PC are very "green" still. What he should do, and what we should be able to ask him to do, is to sit us down for a long talk about what it really means to be a Warden, as soon as we get back to Eamon's estate. As it is, the whole situation with him both at the Landsmeet and when he breaks the news about the Archdemon feels really contrived.

Not to mention that one moment he tells you that we CAN'T recruit new Wardens, and the next he suddenly says we CAN. How does that make sense? And if we CAN recruit, why is there no option to choose someone else? Why only the ravening traitor Loghain?


But, on topic: I like Alistair but he does not make my "favourite NPCs" list -- only Wynne manages that, in this game. He's a decent enough fellow with a basically good heart and believable flaws, but he definitely needs to start dealing with those flaws. (I think some people are being unfair, though, if they complain about him complaining about them making him do something he doesn't want.) The inability to help him grow in confidence "properly" simply by showing him a little friendship and support annoyed me. Instead, there is only an option to be a jerk in a vulnerable moment. That makes no sense to me, it definitely creates a sense that there is something lacking.

As far as "romance" is concerned, I don't get all the squealing about him or Zevran -- but the biggest reason for that is that I am lesbian. And I'm and more into platonic bonds to boot.

Modifié par Korva, 24 avril 2010 - 06:13 .