234 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarah1281]

Not to mention that one moment he tells you that we CAN'T recruit new Wardens, and the next he suddenly says we CAN. How does that make sense? And if we CAN recruit, why is there no option to choose someone else? Why only Loghain?

At Howe's estate he says he doesn't know what happened to the materials for the ritual. Once the Landsmeet happens he's likely located them, especially if he were to speak with Anora. She sounds like he's on board with Riordan's plan and somehow knows the Joining could be fatal. They could very well have discussed it at Eamon's estate.



Why only Loghain? Well, if either that or death for him so by Wardens standards he's perfect. Who else would you want to recruit? A companion? They are already on your side, you don't know if they even want to be Wardens, and they could die in the Joining. A noble? The political ramifications would not be pretty. And you don't really have time to go on a recruitment drive anyway.

[Tirigon]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I mean, Loghain is (no matter how much I hate him) definitely more intelligent and a better fighter than Alistair.

A big part of Riordan's pitch to recruit Loghain is: there are only three of us That's really bad odds. Four is still bad odds but slightly better. Alistair is sure as hell not 'unnecessary' at this point. He's still needed until the Archdemon is slain.

Why?


i mean, I need armies to get to it, then I fight it, and then I need someone to do the final blow, what can be done by Loghain (and if I knew about the Dark Ritual already or am ready to sacrifice myself I don´t even need him).

[Sarah1281]

You don't know, at that point, why GW are needed just that they are. Since you only have three Wardens, one of those three needs to live and land the final blow. There's a better chance of it happening and quicker with four people than with three.

[Count Viceroy]

CalJones wrote...

Heh, I don't think we can compare DA:O with WoW. After all, we know all female elves in WoW are played by prepubescent boys who just want to make them dance naked while they spank their monkey.
Did I ever mention how I despise WoW?

Holy stereotype batman. 

[Korva]

Sarah1281 wrote...

At Howe's estate he says he doesn't know what happened to the materials for the ritual. Once the Landsmeet happens he's likely located them, especially if he were to speak with Anora. She sounds like he's on board with Riordan's plan and somehow knows the Joining could be fatal. They could very well have discussed it at Eamon's estate.

I find that extremely unlikely. First, there is very little time in which he could do that. And Denerim is a big city. And if Loghain took the ingredients, they are bound to be somewhere Riordan can't get into. And Anora doesn't even seem to be all that well-informed about her father's doings, especially since we don't know how long she's been locked up at Howe's. It is way, way too contrived and no explanation is given.

Not to mention that she likely wouldn't give out such information without getting something in return. A promise that Riordan will try to save her father? Eh. I don't know. It all doesn't jive with me. If it's true, it certainly is not something that would sit well with any of my characters, and provide another reason to sit Riordan down for a talk of "Why by Andraste's holy arse were you withholding information and plotting behind our backs? Anything else you aren't telling us?"

Why only Loghain? Well, if either that or death for him so by Wardens standards he's perfect. Who else would you want to recruit? A companion? They are already on your side, you don't know if they even want to be Wardens, and they could die in the Joining. A noble? The political ramifications would not be pretty. And you don't really have time to go on a recruitment drive anyway.

The companions already put themselves in the line of fire and risk death every day. At least the ones who are your friends and don't have their own agenda are worth asking. So not Morrigan or Sten, and likely not Wynne with her age and "living on borrowed time" situation, but Leliana, Zevran and maybe Oghren are an option. And one can ask for volunteers. Or conscript from the dungeons. If it is really so important to have more Wardens, rather than introduce a moment of contrived bad drama, then any or all that should be doable.

I like Dragon Age, but the endgame plot is full of holes IMO.

[Aisynia]

We know now that Oghren would certainly survive the Joining and would probably jump at the chance if offered.. after all, he basically did it on a whim in Awakening.

[CalJones]

Zevran won't - if you remain a Warden he stays with you (Awakening excluded...grrr) but doesn't want to join. He's obviously heard you thrashing around in your sleep enough not to want any part of it...Whereas Oghren gets so drunk he'll sleep through anything.

[LadyDamodred]

*scans thread quickly so she can throw her two cents in*



As a player, I love Alistair to death from multiple angles. However, looking at him through my PC's eyes, there are definitely some that do not see him as romantic interest at all, and for several of the reasons listed here. Maybe I get way to into the RP aspect of the game, but the way he, and any character really, reacts and behaves in completely dependent on how the PC sees and interprets him. For example, he tends to irk my dwarves, my CEs see him as a friend/brother and my HN and mages are all . It's all in how you RP it.

[CalJones]

Yeah, I'm talking as a player, really.

I've romanced Alistair a couple of times, had the sexytime and all the relevant convos. It's a very sweet romance up until Landsmeet. Then it's a nightmare. Didn't make it past the Landsmeet on either occassion.

I don't have trouble roleplaying a character who would want to get involved with Alistair, same as I don't have trouble roleplaying a red-blooded male who wants to nail Morrigan, despite being a straight female. But the more I've played Dragon Age, the less tolerance I've had for him and the less I've been willing to even enter into any sort of romance with him.

Familiarity breeds contempt, as they say.

[LadyDamodred]

Mmmm, it certainly does in some cases. I happened to very attached to Alistair and Zevran, though, so repeated play throughs haven't really affected it. The Landsmeet also tends to go very smoothly for me, so that might help. Leliana on the other hand... *shudders* That is definitely a case of familiarity breeeding contempt for me.

[CalJones]

Yes, the fact I really like Loghain doesn't help matters as I tend to see Alistair's bad side a lot, heh.

I just had to laugh, the one time I actually gritted my teeth and let him kill Loghain, he dumped my character anyway. Ah well, I got a Warden Commander achievement out of it, deleted that playthrough and moved on.

Zevran...no, never got bored with him yet.

[Addai]

LadyDamodred wrote...

Mmmm, it certainly does in some cases. I happened to very attached to Alistair and Zevran, though, so repeated play throughs haven't really affected it. The Landsmeet also tends to go very smoothly for me, so that might help. Leliana on the other hand... *shudders* That is definitely a case of familiarity breeeding contempt for me.

Same here.  I finally got so I could stand her again, sort of, on my HNM character.  He could flirt with her, there was interesting bits when he had to dump her for Morrigan, and he hardened her, which I hadn't done on my female characters.

[CalJones]

I don't see a huge difference between hardened and unhardened Leli (other than that she cares less if you desecrate the ashes, which I never do, or can persuade her into a three/foursome at the Pearl). Alistair changes more, I think.



It's funny, in the playthrough I'm just finishing, I hardened Alistair thinking I'd have him marry Anora, but it got to Landsmeet and my tolerance had dropped so low that when he had his outburst and Anora said "can you see what a disaster he'd be as a king?" my character had to agree. Hardened Alistair seems to be even more of a jerk than unhardened at this point (not that he doesn't have his reasons, of course).

I think I need a time out from this game, to be honest!

[Aisynia]

It affects her endings as well.



Also, Leli is my favorite companion >.> <.<

[Remaix]

CalJones wrote...

Heh, I don't think we can compare DA:O with WoW. After all, we know all female elves in WoW are played by prepubescent boys who just want to make them dance naked while they spank their monkey.
Did I ever mention how I despise WoW?

...

This would be my unamused face.

[Aisynia]

WoW does suck though. Amazingly.

[CalJones]

I'm just bitter about WoW because I was a die-hard UO player and part of the RP community, which I watched fall apart due to people leaving for other games. WoW definitely hurt us the most.

But, ultimately (no pun intended) I think it was for the best...had the community not dwindled and my guild not died then I'd still be there, and my UO playing was pretty unhealthy. No more MMOs for me!



And yes, I remembered about the endings as I didn't bother hardening her...hardened Leli goes to study darkspawn in the Deep Roads and unhardened Leli leads an expedition to the Sacred Ashes. (Tough for her in my last game as the ashes had gone missing. I guess that was because I sent Brother Genitivi back to Denerim with his broken leg).



Yeah, I don't mind Leli apart from the religious stuff and slightly creepy stalker-like tendencies if you romance her. But she's been through a lot, so I have a certain amount of compassion for her too.

[Yendi]

I posted that I didn't like Alistair much from the start but did anybody other than me actually like both him and the game more since they found out that only the HN can marry him as king? It seems much more kind and true to the game lore than to let the character find out what the people of Ferelden would really say about an elf/dwarf/mage queen after the marriage.



I find it so strange to read about people who got disappointed when Alistair broke up with their character... but why did they choose to make him king then, wasn't it obvious that it couldn't work judging from the elves and mages status in the world?

[CalJones]

Well, I guess some of them didn't realise (on first playthroughs, maybe) that Alistair could only have a Cousland queen. In my case it was an accident as I didn't intend to make him king and wanted him to remain a warden. He made himself king despite my wishes.

A lot of the problem with the dumping isn't that he does it - it's understandable, after all - but that he does it in front of your entire party. I don't know why Bioware made it so, but it falls into the cruel and unusual category. I certainly like him less for that!

[ejoslin]

CalJones wrote...

I don't see a huge difference between hardened and unhardened Leli (other than that she cares less if you desecrate the ashes, which I never do, or can persuade her into a three/foursome at the Pearl). Alistair changes more, I think.

There isn't a huge difference in the vanilla game because of bugs.  When she is fixed, her declaration of love is different and also she will stay with a Cousland who is getting married.

Edit: Alistair broke my heart my first game.  Yes, I should have seen it coming, but I was still on the "Love Conquers All" thing and I trusted Arl Eamon completely.

Modifié par ejoslin, 25 avril 2010 - 12:56 .

[Aisynia]

CalJones wrote...

I'm just bitter about WoW because I was a die-hard UO player and part of the RP community, which I watched fall apart due to people leaving for other games. WoW definitely hurt us the most.
But, ultimately (no pun intended) I think it was for the best...had the community not dwindled and my guild not died then I'd still be there, and my UO playing was pretty unhealthy. No more MMOs for me!

And yes, I remembered about the endings as I didn't bother hardening her...hardened Leli goes to study darkspawn in the Deep Roads and unhardened Leli leads an expedition to the Sacred Ashes. (Tough for her in my last game as the ashes had gone missing. I guess that was because I sent Brother Genitivi back to Denerim with his broken leg).

Yeah, I don't mind Leli apart from the religious stuff and slightly creepy stalker-like tendencies if you romance her. But she's been through a lot, so I have a certain amount of compassion for her too.

I never saw her as creepy or stalkery (new word there?). I barely see her as religious. I see her as spiritual.

She has faith, she believes in the maker, and it's a genuine emotion and feeling within her. At NO time does she try and force her beliefs on you. At NO time is she unwilling to accept that she might be wrong. Furthermore, she actually says it is the nature of religious people to be intolerant.. that's not something someone says if they consider them to be religious. Leliana's views on her spirituality.. on the maker, on Andraste, are wildly different than the Chantry's.

Compare her to one of the Revered mothers (especially that wretch in Amaranthine), or one of those brothers chanting in the chantry, or take your pick of just about any Templar. Most of them are very hard-line Andrastians who are hard to get along with. I have no issues with religion in real life, I think people should all choose to seek their own path as long as it brings no harm to others, but that doesn't mean I could love someone who was such a hardass about it. I consider myself highly spiritual myself, and I see those same traits in Leli.

She fully admits, with no prompting whatsoever, that she could easily be very wrong, and acepts that. She knows what she feels in her heart, and chooses to go with that.

I don't see any problems with that. She's a genuine, caring, compassionate person who follows her heart. She's pretty much the opposite of the definition of "bad person".

Most of the time, when people say she's a stalker, they bring up he eyelashes conversation. I never saw a problem with that. She was obviously jesting about wanting to catch them, and you get no disapproval for calling her crazy (she just laughs and goes with it).

You've never slept next to someone you love and woke up early, unwilling to climb out of bed and leave that one person who is so special to you? I have, and I have found myself staring.. but it's not a stalkerish behavior. It's just looking fondly at this person who you love so deeply, smiling, caring, watching themn in their most peaceful and natural state. It's intimate, not creepy, and I don't see an issue with it.. but I guess everyone's different.

To me, Leliana is the most genuine, compassionate and earnest member of your group. What few flaws I see her as having, she admits to herself.

Modifié par Aisynia, 25 avril 2010 - 12:59 .

[Aisynia]

ejoslin wrote...

CalJones wrote...

I don't see a huge difference between hardened and unhardened Leli (other than that she cares less if you desecrate the ashes, which I never do, or can persuade her into a three/foursome at the Pearl). Alistair changes more, I think.

There isn't a huge difference in the vanilla game because of bugs.  When she is fixed, her declaration of love is different and also she will stay with a Cousland who is getting married.

Edit: Alistair broke my heart my first game.  Yes, I should have seen it coming, but I was still on the "Love Conquers All" thing and I trusted Arl Eamon completely.

See, in my book, love does conquer all, which is why my respect for Alistair was akin to a flaming plane crash when he broke up with me in front of my entire party. It was even worse when he left me because I decided to show mercy towards an enemy who surrendered.

[nos_astra]

CalJones wrote...
A lot of the problem with the dumping isn't that he does it - it's understandable, after all - but that he does it in front of your entire party. I don't know why Bioware made it so, but it falls into the cruel and unusual category. I certainly like him less for that!

This scene is exactly the same for every outcome. It is cutscene recycling. There's a lot of that going on at the Landsmeet and after that and yes, especially the Alistair romance is suffering from it. Alistair is tied to the plot and the scenes have to work for the break-up scene, for a female Warden meeting her surprised betrothed, for Anora telling you of Loghain's successful Joining and Alistair pouting upstairs, for Anora talking to her future husband.

You can't tell me that it didn't occur to you that the setting is not meant to carry a deeper meaning.

[Aisynia]

klarabella wrote...

CalJones wrote...
A lot of the problem with the dumping isn't that he does it - it's understandable, after all - but that he does it in front of your entire party. I don't know why Bioware made it so, but it falls into the cruel and unusual category. I certainly like him less for that!

This scene is exactly the same for every outcome. It is cutscene recycling. There's a lot of that going on at the Landsmeet and after that and yes, especially the Alistair romance is suffering from it. Alistair is tied to the plot and the scenes have to work for the break-up scene, for a female Warden meeting her surprised betrothed, for Anora telling you of Loghain's successful Joining and Alistair pouting upstairs, for Anora talking to her future husband.

You can't tell me that it didn't occur to you that the setting is not meant to carry a deeper meaning.

With how much effort they put into the rest of the game, I think they could have removed your party members from the background for this one.

[nos_astra]

Aisynia wrote...
With how much effort they put into the rest of the game, I think they could have removed your party members from the background for this one.

They don't even have dialogue for an Alistair who is not King after the Landsmeet! It is completely unsurprisung that they didn't bother to remove the party members.