290 réponses à ce sujet

[Bill569]

######Spoiler warning######

At the end of Legion's loyalty mission, you get a chance either to kill the heretic geth or brainwash them. After talking with both Tali and Legion and thinking about it a little, I cannot believe that the paragon option is to brainwash them! I mean seriously, how can you even justify an action like that? The geth are synthetic sapient creatures, just like organic ones. The only difference between them is that the geth are made up of metal whereas the organics of carbon. They deserve to be treated equally. After all they fought for their freedom, nothing more. Imagine being enslaved. What would you do? Continue to be a slave? Of course, the quarians intended to have simple machines to serve them, not synthetic sapient creatures. This is like brainwashing organics. Would brainwashing, let's say, turians or humans be ethical, just because they do not agree with you, or because the are the enemy? Hitler used such methods on the N**i youth in order to make them even more facist. As Udina would say: 




 

Modifié par Bill569, 22 avril 2010 - 08:38 .

[Kikaimegami]

It was my understanding that Sovereign introduced a glitch in their runtimes to cause them to become Heretics. Either that, or he indoctrinated them somehow. I see it as freeing them from slavery, not forced into it.

EDIT: The virus Legion uses fixes the error.

Modifié par Kikaimegami, 22 avril 2010 - 08:46 .

[Koen Casier]

Questions like this are very hard to answer, and we try on this board to answer them regularly, and I don't mean this type of question but this actual question: "why is geth brainwashing a paragon action"

The consensus seems to be that while brainwashing is bad, it's worst to kill them all. It is the difference between corrupting some information or completely destroying all information. Also it is showing mercy and in a way willingness to forgive (even if it is not unconditional mercy, forgiveness) to the geth, something they apparently never received from organics before.

[Bill569]

Well, if you choose the Paragon action you may forgive them, but you force them to accept what you believe that is right. Why is your right better than theirs? It is as if you believe that e.g. the Americans shouldn't have attacked Iran and then someone comes to you and says: What you believe is wrong so I'll brainwash you to believe what's right.

[Bill569]

And the geth are not just computer programs. You see, even the human brain is a computer. Simply, it is an organic one. The geth have a synthetic one. That's all. In addition, humans have ethics after thousands of years of vicious and brutal ways. The geth are a new species. You cannot expect them to have ethics just 300 years after their creation.

Modifié par Bill569, 22 avril 2010 - 09:13 .

[Koen Casier]

Bill569 wrote...

Well, if you choose the Paragon action you may forgive them, but you force them to accept what you believe that is right. Why is your right better than theirs? It is as if you believe that e.g. the Americans shouldn't have attacked Iran and then someone comes to you and says: What you believe is wrong so I'll brainwash you to believe what's right.

They (heretics) were planning to brainwash the geth proper so it was more than a difference of opinion it was a preemptive strike, so long as it was a simple difference of opinion the geth proper could not care less about what the heretics where doing. And since the heretics where the ones that considered brainwashing an acceptable action (since they where planning to use it on the geth proper) there is even less of a moral issue.

[Solomen]

I don't want to kill them... but again I don't want them siding with the reapers. Having them rejoin Geth makes Geth stronger.

[Skilled Seeker]

Blow them up. The last thing you want is to make the Geth even stronger. And its a risky move rewriting them incase they end up corrupting all the Geth. Best to play it safe.

[Bill569]

Koen Casier wrote...

Bill569 wrote...

Well, if you choose the Paragon action you may forgive them, but you force them to accept what you believe that is right. Why is your right better than theirs? It is as if you believe that e.g. the Americans shouldn't have attacked Iran and then someone comes to you and says: What you believe is wrong so I'll brainwash you to believe what's right.

They (heretics) were planning to brainwash the geth proper so it was more than a difference of opinion it was a preemptive strike, so long as it was a simple difference of opinion the geth proper could not care less about what the heretics where doing. And since the heretics where the ones that considered brainwashing an acceptable action (since they where planning to use it on the geth proper) there is even less of a moral issue.

Just because the heretics considered brainwashing an acceptable action does not mean that the "true" geth should use the same cruel immoral tactic on them. We have all seen what nuclear weapons are capable of. Does that mean that the enemy of the USA in the next World War should use them just because USA used them in the past?

Modifié par Bill569, 22 avril 2010 - 09:28 .

[Steel Dancer]

Bill569 wrote...

Just because the heretics considered brainwashing an acceptable action does not mean that the "true" geth should use the same cruel immoral tactic on them. We have all seen what nuclear weapons are capable of. Does that mean that the enemy of the USA in the next World War should use them just because USA used them in the past?

You're quite right. Which is why I nuked them instead of brainwashing them.

[Koen Casier]

Bill569 wrote...

And the geth are not just computer programs. You see, even the human brain is a computer. Simply, it is an organic one. The geth have a synthetic one. That's all. In addition, humans have ethics after thousands of years of vicious and brutal ways. The geth are a new species. You cannot expect them to have ethics just 300 years after their creation.

The geth consider its self as a sentient AI gestalt of non sentient VI computer programs, thats why they have no problem about transferring component programs from one platform to a other. As such they value the individual geth VI programs in the same way that a human values the individual neuron; it's important certainly and you don't want it to be maliciousness manipulated, but at the end of the day it is more important that the whole works not the part, and while manipulation is bad, destruction is worst.

As for the morals / ethics of their behavior; I personally think that geth have a high moral standard.

[1jp2nv]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Blow them up. The last thing you want is to make the Geth even stronger. And its a risky move rewriting them incase they end up corrupting all the Geth. Best to play it safe.

I agree completely.

[Koen Casier]

Bill569 wrote...

Just because the heretics considered brainwashing an acceptable action does not mean that the "true" geth should use the same cruel immoral tactic on them. We have all seen what nuclear weapons are capable of. Does that mean that the enemy of the USA in the next World War should use them just because USA used them in the past?

First question is: is it cruel?
By most accounts it is not cruel: the individual geth VI program would not feel it, and the at the end of the day the it is the proper geth AI gestalt that would feel the brunt of any trauma caused by the unification and reacquisition of the memories of the heretics.

Second thought is: is it immoral?
I see where you come from, in your world view morality is centered on the action and is as such an absolutist view action x is (nearly) always good or evil (you might or might not have some exceptions in very extreme cases). In my world view morality is much more relative and dependent on the person who receives the brunt of consequences of the behavior (with some obvious exceptions). Both have their use cases and validity and both have there breaking points where they become absurd.

[Solomen]

My choice was based on what would be good for the entire galaxy. Destroying the heretics may make sense in the short run but in the long run the outcome is unacceptable. Better they rejoin the collective and bolster your allies.

[Vaenier]

The decision to rewrite or kill is one of the few great instances of having an actual choice that doesnt automatically come with a "pick this choice!" arrow on the good answer. Neither choice is good. Kill or brainwash. I am so glad they did not try to assign paragon/renegade points to it.

I picked brainwash. 1: You get all the heretics, not just the ones on the station. 2: its like a sped up incarceration and reform. Changing a small part of someones mind does not destory them, it happens all the time in life. This is just a sped up aproach. 3: you can always just kill them later...

[Pacifien]

The only reason I can think of why this was considered a paragon action is because a great many of the paragon actions are about giving second chances. Second chance to the Rachni, second chance to the Council, second chance to Shiala, second chance for the Krogan, etc. By rewriting the Heretics, you give them a second chance to coexist peacefully with organics.



That said, I think it's bull****. I consider myself a Paragon player, but never even entertained the idea of rewriting the Geth. It was brainwashing. It was indoctrination. It was saying machines, no matter their sentient state, could be reprogrammed at will to make them better suited for your needs. I wouldn't do it to the Krogran, Rachni, Turians... certainly wouldn't want that done with humans.



'Course, some people don't view Geth as having the same rights to existence as organic species. In which case, probably feel it's just fine to rewrite.

[Pacifien]

Vaenier wrote...
The decision to rewrite or kill is one of the few great instances of having an actual choice that doesnt automatically come with a "pick this choice!" arrow on the good answer. Neither choice is good. Kill or brainwash. I am so glad they did not try to assign paragon/renegade points to it.

Oh, they do assign paragon/renegade points to it. A lot of them. Brainwash is considered the paragon action.

[Vaenier]

Pacifien wrote...

Vaenier wrote...
The decision to rewrite or kill is one of the few great instances of having an actual choice that doesnt automatically come with a "pick this choice!" arrow on the good answer. Neither choice is good. Kill or brainwash. I am so glad they did not try to assign paragon/renegade points to it.

Oh, they do assign paragon/renegade points to it. A lot of them. Brainwash is considered the paragon action.

I could of sworn they didnt include paragon points for that... wonder if a mod screwed it up...

[Pacifien]

Vaenier wrote...
I could of sworn they didnt include paragon points for that... wonder if a mod screwed it up...

I believe it's 30-some points one way or the other.

[mcsupersport]

OP missed the point of Paragon and Renegade. It has nothing to do with right/wrong, or even good/evil, as stated many times. Paragon/Renegade has to do with what you are willing to sacrifice/kill to get the job done. It is paragon to rewrite, because you are not willing to terminate a life(synthetic in this case) to end the threat of the Heritics. It is renegade to kill them, because you are willing to terminate an unknown number(maybe in millions) to defeat the threat to the Geth and the rest of the Citadel races.



Now is it moral to rewrite them......that is an individual choice, but in my opinion very murky and immoral. I usually do it to strengthen the Geth for the coming Reaper invasion.

[ILALQ]

I blew it up. I didn't like that non zero percent chance that the rewrite might not work. Then all the geth are going to be after my head. Safer to blow them up.

[Koen Casier]

ILALQ wrote...

I blew it up. I didn't like that non zero percent chance that the rewrite might not work. Then all the geth are going to be after my head. Safer to blow them up.

yhea, because getting killed by the reapers is so much better than getting killed a little sooner by the heretic geth.<_<