290 réponses à ce sujet

[Koen Casier]

Shandepared wrote...
No, if they reverted to worshipping Sovereign then they would aid the Reapers.

It is the rachni choice all over again. By killing the queen you eliminate the best and worst outcomes. If you save them you have a chance for things to either go horribly well or horribly wrong. Personally I will never take the risk of things going completely FUBAR. I don't think you should gamble with that kind of thing.

Well OK given that the reapers means our almost certain doom with or without the geth (they needed the geth to get access to the citadel, not fight us), I content that it is irrelevant, like I once said:

reaper = doom
reapers+geth = faster doom

If there is a nuke dropping onto you does it matter that just a bit further down there is bullet:

   | <<< bomb (reapers)
   . <<< bullet (geth)


 < The organics

If we have a method to stop the reapers or evade the reapers we probably have a method to do the same to the heretics, if we can't even stop the geth we don't have a chance against the reapers... And then it doesn't really matter does it.  (ok there might be a 0,01% chance but like you said later you shouldn't count on such a low odds)

Modifié par Koen Casier, 25 avril 2010 - 06:47 .

[cruc1al]

Solomen wrote...

cruc1al wrote...

Solomen wrote...

TheMufflon wrote...

Solomen wrote...

TheMufflon wrote...

Solomen wrote...
In all seriousness they have mapped and simulated the neurons of half a mouse brain.  The simulation behaves exactly like the neuron of half a mouse brain. 

No, they have not. 'They' haven't even been able to simulate the nervous system of a nematode yet.

Where have you been living since 2004? 

Since you are so obviously familiar with the relevant articles, why don't you provide some citations so that the rest of us might peruse them?

Here is a quick link with a basic overview.
http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Blue_Brain

To quote:

"The initial goal of the project, completed in December 2006, was the simulation of a rat neocortical column, which can be considered the smallest functional unit of the neocortex [...] and contains about 60,000 neurons in humans; rat neocortical columns are very similar in structure but contain only 10,000 neurons."

The human neocortical column contains about 0.00006 to 0.00012 percent of the total number of neurons. They've hardly mapped "half a mouse brain". Besides they were rats.

That is just the quick wiki.  You're splitting hares

My point exactly.

[Solomen]

cruc1al wrote...

Solomen wrote...

cruc1al wrote...

Solomen wrote...

TheMufflon wrote...

Solomen wrote...

TheMufflon wrote...

Solomen wrote...
In all seriousness they have mapped and simulated the neurons of half a mouse brain.  The simulation behaves exactly like the neuron of half a mouse brain. 

No, they have not. 'They' haven't even been able to simulate the nervous system of a nematode yet.

Where have you been living since 2004? 

Since you are so obviously familiar with the relevant articles, why don't you provide some citations so that the rest of us might peruse them?

Here is a quick link with a basic overview.
http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Blue_Brain

To quote:

"The initial goal of the project, completed in December 2006, was the simulation of a rat neocortical column, which can be considered the smallest functional unit of the neocortex [...] and contains about 60,000 neurons in humans; rat neocortical columns are very similar in structure but contain only 10,000 neurons."

The human neocortical column contains about 0.00006 to 0.00012 percent of the total number of neurons. They've hardly mapped "half a mouse brain". Besides they were rats.

That is just the quick wiki.  You're splitting hares

My point exactly.

 this is better

[cruc1al]

Solomen wrote...
 this is better

That's all very interesting and fascinating (I love TED videos).

But it still didn't mention anything about having "mapped half a mouse brain". It only confirmed what was said in wikipedia, that their initial goal was to map the rat neocortical column and now they've moved on to mapping the human brain. Where did you get the info that they've mapped half a mouse brain? Sounds like bollocks to me, tbh.

Modifié par cruc1al, 25 avril 2010 - 09:35 .

[Solomen]

cruc1al wrote...

Solomen wrote...
 this is better

That's all very interesting and fascinating (I love TED videos).

But it still didn't mention anything about having "mapped half a mouse brain". It only confirmed what was said in wikipedia, that their initial goal was to map the rat neocortical column and now they've moved on to mapping the human brain. Where did you get the info that they've mapped half a mouse brain? Sounds like bollocks to me, tbh.

I was wrong about the rodent

[Nu-Nu]

Shandepared wrote...

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

Because sometimes, you have to take that leap and run the odds sometimes.

No, not when the odds mean that millions, billions, or trillions of people could die.

No the odds are on Shepards side, anyone tries to hack the geth and turn them into heretics or slaves will get a bullet in the head.  So win!  Besides having the heretics means having their memories which could also mean they know reapers plans/weakness, so extra stradegy points for me.

[Solomen]

Nu-Nu wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

Because sometimes, you have to take that leap and run the odds sometimes.

No, not when the odds mean that millions, billions, or trillions of people could die.

No the odds are on Shepards side, anyone tries to hack the geth and turn them into heretics or slaves will get a bullet in the head.  So win!  Besides having the heretics means having their memories which could also mean they know reapers plans/weakness, so extra stradegy points for me.

This was my thought.  The heretics aren't anywhere as big of a threat as the reapers are.  Plus Shepard took out the heretics' god.  The chance of the Geth choosing to fight against Shepard when they know the reapers will exterminate them is minimal.  The chance of the reapers reprogramming them is the same as the chance of your crew being indoctrinated

[TheMufflon]

Solomen wrote...

TheMufflon wrote...

Solomen wrote...

TheMufflon wrote...

Solomen wrote...
In all seriousness they have mapped and simulated the neurons of half a mouse brain.  The simulation behaves exactly like the neuron of half a mouse brain. 

No, they have not. 'They' haven't even been able to simulate the nervous system of a nematode yet.

Where have you been living since 2004? 

Since you are so obviously familiar with the relevant articles, why don't you provide some citations so that the rest of us might peruse them?

Here is a quick link with a basic overview.
http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Blue_Brain

The Blue Brain project hardly simulated 'half a brain', they managed too get something resembling a signal cascade to move through a few virtual "neurons". It's a pretty big difference.

The problem is that they didn't base that simulation off first principles, which means it pretty much useless. Their current work of simulating a whole mammalian brain is going nowhere fast, because we just don't have enough data.

[Bill569]

Shandepared wrote...

Ladi wrote...
Here's another way of looking at it:
1. The Heretics reached a consensus that it was okay to brainwash the Geth2. They therefore could not logically find fault with the same thing being done to them
Crisis averted, no one has to die. (Cept the dudes on their ship. Plus the fact that Shep shot first.)

Again I ask, why do you base your decision on what you think is best or most fair to geth and not about what is more strategically beneficial for humanity (or even the rest of the galaxy)? 

Because, if you lose your ethical values on the way, it doesn't really matter if you manage to avert the reaper threat. For you Shand, there is no ethical problem. I disagree, but this is your opinion. Therefore you do not care about what is right for the geth. But for others who believe that the geth are equal with organics, there is an ethical problem. So, they do take into account what is right for the geth.

Modifié par Bill569, 26 avril 2010 - 10:20 .

[Bill569]

Ladi wrote...

Here's another way of looking at it:

1. The Heretics reached a consensus that it was okay to brainwash the Geth
2. They therefore could not logically find fault with the same thing being done to them

Crisis averted, no one has to die. (Cept the dudes on their ship. Plus the fact that Shep shot first.)

Just because the heretics thought that it is okay to brainwash the true geth, it doesn't mean that the same tactic should be used on them. 

Bill569 wrote...

Just because the heretics considered brainwashing an acceptable action does not mean that the "true" geth should use the same cruel immoral tactic on them. We have all seen what nuclear weapons are capable of. Does that mean that the enemy of the USA in the next World War should use them just because USA used them in the past?

This tactic is immoral only if you consider the geth sapient and alive. If you don't there is no ethical problem.

[DarthRic]

Deleted

Modifié par DarthRic, 26 avril 2010 - 08:23 .

[nov_pl]

I don't see a moral problem with geths. After all, they are sythetics, mashines that can be useful.

Geth don't has feelings, he won't be angry because he's software was changed.

[Bill569]

If you consider the geth sapient and alive then you should apply to them the same morals you apply to organics. By accepting that they are alive and sapient you also accept that they are the same as organics with the only difference that they are made up of different materials and that work in a different way (e.g. almost pure logic (geth) vs hormones (organics)). In addition, if you consider them alive and sapient, then brainwashing is far worse than killing.

[Bill569]

nov_pl wrote...

I don't see a moral problem with geths. After all, they are sythetics, mashines that can be useful.
Geth don't has feelings, he won't be angry because he's software was changed.

The geth do have feelings. That's why Legion chose to rebuild himself with a piece of Shepard's N7 armor and why they have build memorials on the quarian homeworld. However they do not understand them yet.

[Bill569]

Like Koen Casier said, why do you insist on insulting people? Your argument stands on its own, you do not need nor should insult people to get your argument across.



Anyway, if you lose your values on the way, then you become like the reapers (morally). You should not bend the rules only to survive. Life has a value because we are valuable. If you lose your values then you lose your value, therefore your life has no longer value. The ends do not justify the means. Many people throughout human history have fought and died for their ideals. After all, not all life will be destroyed, just space-faring species.

[Pacifien]

I had no idea that we as a species would die if we failed to take an all-or-nothing approach to our survival. In the game.

[Pacifien]

Shandepared wrote...
Yes, it's a game. However if you're going to take the time to debate it then you might as well take it seriously.

I think you're taking the concept of serious debate a little far...

Shandepared wrote...
Were this not a game, were we real people in the Mass Effect universe then I assure you that "all or nothing" would quite true. You wouldn't have sympathetic writers to bail you out for your naive fantasies.

Is that a general "you" or were you speaking to me directly?

[Pacifien]

Shandepared wrote...
If you don't care then why participate?

I did not say I didn't care, I said I thought you were taking the concept of serious debate a little far.

Pacifen wrote...
Is that a general "you" or were you speaking to me directly?

Shandepared wrote...
Yes.

Really? Because I didn't save the Council, didn't rewrite the Geth, and saved the Collector Base. Craaaazy naive fantasy.

I understand why people have saved the Council, saved the Rachni, rewritten the Geth, and destroyed the Collector Base. They can be viewed as big gambles, but there is nothing that says their gamble will 100% result in horrible consequences. There is the chance, that's what makes it a gamble. And if you were a crewman standing next to their Shepard, you can scream that they're putting lives at stake, taking too much of a chance, being reckless, but in the end, their gamble is going to work out. Lucky them. I have no problem with luck.

[Solomen]

Pacifien wrote...

Shandepared wrote...
If you don't care then why participate?

I did not say I didn't care, I said I thought you were taking the concept of serious debate a little far.

Pacifen wrote...
Is that a general "you" or were you speaking to me directly?

Shandepared wrote...
Yes.

Really? Because I didn't save the Council, didn't rewrite the Geth, and saved the Collector Base. Craaaazy naive fantasy.

I understand why people have saved the Council, saved the Rachni, rewritten the Geth, and destroyed the Collector Base. They can be viewed as big gambles, but there is nothing that says their gamble will 100% result in horrible consequences. There is the chance, that's what makes it a gamble. And if you were a crewman standing next to their Shepard, you can scream that they're putting lives at stake, taking too much of a chance, being reckless, but in the end, their gamble is going to work out. Lucky them. I have no problem with luck.

Shanedepared would have no trouble living in Germany circa 1930

[Vaenier]

It is just as much as a chance to not take any chances and hope you are prepared with the bare minimum. Given the Reapers track record, a very low chance. Whats less than 0%?