290 réponses à ce sujet

[Pacifien]

Koen Casier wrote...
yhea, because getting killed by the reapers is so much better than getting killed a little sooner by the heretic geth.<_<

Well, your dead either way.

[Kelgair]

Bill569 wrote...

Why is your right better than theirs?

Moral relativism doesn't really work with heretic geth since their "this is the right thing to do" includes allying themselves with eons old genocidal AI bent on reaping the galaxy of life every couple mellennia. I don't think they get a pass on that.

Just sayin.

Anyways, I think brainwashing the heretic geth is safer in the long run since just blowing up the station leaves the geth that aren't there at the time free to build more heretic geth and not have the "oh hey, reapers aren't gods" idea in their head...  or wherever they store their programs. And hell, they made a couple dozen platforms on one Quarian ship pretty fast.

Modifié par Kelgair, 22 avril 2010 - 11:19 .

[Koen Casier]

Shandepared wrote...

Koen Casier wrote...

As for the morals / ethics of their behavior; I personally think that geth have a high moral standard.

Annihilating billions of people would disqualify them from that in most understandings of a "high moral standard".

preamble: I didn't mean perfect moral behavior simply a very high moral behavior


When confronted with your own annihilation yes; if somebody tries to kill you and you kill him instead then regardless how regrettable act of taking a life is it is morally more acceptable.
If a hundred individuals tried to killed a hundred other individuals in synchronize events and the victims killed their assailants instead it would be morally acceptable.
And therefore it is my postulate that if one race tries to kill an other race then it is morally acceptable for that other race to kill the attacking race.

The fact that the geth allowed some of the quarians to survive and escape (and lets face it the geth did allow them to escape and survive since it would have been very easy to for them to come after them in those 300 years and finish it) indicates to me that they don't actually hold grudges, are fundamentally prepared to give peace a chance and want their creators to have a home world even if they don't understand why the creators want (that) home world.

The only way to provoke it (after all the geth is one continuousness) is to present yourself as a direct danger to it. I contented that it's behavior is one of the most morally sound behaviors.

[Kelgair]

Shandepared wrote...

Rewriting the heretics is not a smart move no matter what. Most especially if you want peace between the quarians and geth. If they are to negotiate they need to be on a more even playing field. Secondly as I've said before you don't know enough about the geth to help them in such a profound way. They're using your ship to accomplish their mission. The trade-off is that they are helping you annihilate an enemy. If you decide to re-write them though then suddenly the geth have used you to maximize the strategic benefits of defeating the heretics. They haven't done anything to earn such a big favor.

Here you're assuming the quarians WILL go to war over their homeworld, what the Admiralty board was talking about at the end of the loyalty mission was basically split into 3 camps. Of all the possible decision hubs bioware could go with this is my favorite.  IMO the three camps are For War, For Peace, For Conquest, i.e. putting the geth under the control of Quarians again (and how could you waste Claudia Black in a minor roll . I would love if every word spoken on those ships affected the outcome of the Admiralty, but we'll see.

On your second point, yes you don't know enough about the geth other than that they defended themselves from extinction when the Quarians panicked and the Heretics you've been fighting for the past 2+ years are 5% of the geth Gestalt. 

"Their" (geth) mission is to achieve their own destiny which does not include anything the reapers have to offer.

[Kelgair]

Koen Casier wrote...

The only way to provoke it (after all the geth is one continuousness) is to present yourself as a direct danger to it. I contented that it's behavior is one of the most morally sound behaviors.

I like the way you think sir (+ the paragraph above what I'm quoting)!

[RyuGuitarFreak]

Both are somewhat wrong. But brainwashing = preservation of life, blow them = death.

[Ninniach Lina]

Shandepared wrote...

Sovereign introduced no such glitch; the "heretics" are not flawed. They merely reached a different but equally correct conclusion from the "true" geth. As for them just "fighting for their freedom" they waged a war of utter annihilation against every organic race in the galaxy. I blew up them for that, but not because I thought re-writing was unethical. The geth are computer programs, nothing more. Even Legion does not object to the rewrite on ethical grounds nor does he even reject Admiral Xen's desire to re-write the geth because of ethics. What causes Legion to second-guess rewrite (or fail to reach a consensus) is the possibility that incorporating the "heretics" back into the main geth collective is potential dangerous or that it will not stop them from returning to the worship of the Sovereign.

WRONG!

Legion specifically tells you that Sovereign introduced a small glitch into the system of the Heretics, which did nothing but change a few variables. Basically instead of a line of 10011100000111110 he changed it so it was 10011100000110110. Doing that completely changed how they thought. You fixed the error with the 'brainwashing', you did NOT force them to do what you wanted. If they are as sentient as you wish, then even with that fixed line of code, if they really wanted to follow the Reapers, they still could.

[Ninniach Lina]

I hate double posts!

Modifié par Ninniach Lina, 23 avril 2010 - 01:03 .

[Eternal Density]

To me, fixing the Geth's error is "undoctrination". Like deprogramming cult members.

[Polka14]

You can not "Brainwash" a machine.  It is like saying you can brainwash your computer. It is completely ridiculous. The geth are not sapient they are simply pieces of metal. Rewriting the "Heretic" geth could allow them to be valuable allies in the struggle against the Reapers.

[Inquisitor Recon]

Even my paragon blew up that geth station. Too many things could go wrong if they are kept around.

The geth could just as easily come to the conclusion that organic species have to be destroyed. I see no reason to keep them around once they are used as fodder against the reapers. I am afraid you dirty machine sympathizers will have to go too.



I like Legion however... perhaps I could have EDI disconnect him from the geth network and reprogram him or something. If not, the captain's quarters could always use a new lamp.

[Koen Casier]

Shandepared wrote...

Koen Casier wrote...

And therefore it is my postulate that if one race tries to kill an other race then it is morally acceptable for that other race to kill the attacking race.

That would be an endorsement of genocide if I ever heard one.

In the context of self-defense to an attack, where attack truly happens, and were the attack is defined as a free and willful act on the part of the attacker to attack, and not a mistake or act under duress, and where the attack is supported and maintained by large faction of the population (so no splinter group, or cell), and where failure to act on the defenders side would unconditionally result in the destruction of the defending party then yes I suppose that in that and only the previous stated explicit context I see little moral problems with the issue.

As for the assertion that the geth don't have morals I wish to state this:
Firstly geth is viewed as sapient even by the quarians; one of the reason they wanted to stop the geth from becoming a AI was because if geth did that quarians would consider themselves as enslaving a other sentient being, their rules from even before the morning wars was against making geth sapient, so I don't second guess the quarians and the rest of the game population that state that geth is sapient therefore it is sapient.

• I submit to you that to make a choice one needs to understand the consequences of that choice.
• I submit to you that sapience implies the intelligence to understand and extrapolate the consequences of a choice, not only based on reasoning but past experiences, analogues and empathy (the understanding to put yourself in some else place) wisdom, but also that to learn and create new frameworks to understand the world.
• I submit to you than the consequence: that only sapient being can make truly make choices.
• I submit to you that a choice will also influence future choices, in that it will further enhance the sapience (you gain wisdom as you make choices; learn from both triumphs and mistakes)
• I submit to you that all events that influence the lives of a sentient being has a moral value one is better than a other even if this is only marginally so.
• I therefore submit to you than the consequence: that choices whose result is a event that influences other sentient binges are moral choices.
• I furthermore submit to you that a sapient beings that makes moral choices even if it has at the start no moral system will evolve one with time, since one needs a moral system to make accurate moral choices.
• Since geth is sapient, since geth has moral choices over time, geth will have evolved a moral system and therefor has a morality.

Important note: I don't claim that the morality of geth is fully compatible than ours individual or aggregate but then again it is not because has different values and different key points that it not a moral system.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

[quote]Shandepared wrote...

[quote]Koen Casier wrote...

preamble: I didn't mean perfect moral behavior simply a very high moral behavior[/quote]

They don't have morals.
[/quote]

They have had 300 years to proceed from an child state to knowing very well what is going on in the galaxy, to perhaps knowing even better than the council, or Aria in Omega. When Legion says that they regret the morning war does that mean they do not have morals and realize it was bad? If they dis-liked the decision they made and want to make amends, then that would mean that they would know that is not the desired result, and thus have moral behavior of right and wrong. Just because the geth are still an young race does not mean you should compare them up to standards that other races have gotten to in thousands of years. You would be better off equating it to cavemen standards then modern man. For the geth though, 300 years later, they have gotten to be a much better society because of their FTL discussions and observing.

[quote]
[quote]Koen Casier wrote...

And therefore it is my postulate that if one race tries to kill an other race then it is morally acceptable for that other race to kill the attacking race.[/quote]

That would be an endorsement of genocide if I ever heard one.
[/quote]

no that would be called self-defense. Genocide is when you are willingly destroying another race and seeking to do that. That would mean that the council should have let the Rachni Kill them off. That means If I attempt to kill you, you have to let me because you attacking back would mean the genocide of me. Silly opinon if you ask me.

[quote]
The geth did not "allow" the quarians to escape; they were unable to persue them. After the quarians fled the Council stationed a fleet on the edges of the Persues Veil. Had the geth attacked they'd just be inviting war. It was in their interests to simply bunker down and guard their territory therefater, nothing moral about it.

No they do not hold grudges because they do not have emotions, just as
they don't have morals.
[/quote]

Yeah, they did. They could have easily crushed the quarians before they even got to the edge of the Persues Veil. There was only couple million left, if that, more than likely in undefended ships or very battered warships. They let them go, legion said that they stopped persusing them and instead defended the terratory. When someone tries to kill you and you beat them back, you attempt to establish an buffer zone between them and the attacker. Much like South Korea and North Korea DMZ. Also at that time, the geth did not understand that organics can not simply download into another platform.The geth were an 6 year old being attacked by an enemy they didn't even know the first thing about and reacted exactly how they should done. Would an 6 year old that just came into sentientence know that the things that are trying kill it do not act like them? It's not like the quarians were retreating, they were fighting for every square inch of their colonies. It may have been an one-sided bloodbath but the quarians did not retreat until they realized that if they didn't their race would become extinct.

[quote]Koen Casier wrote...

The only way to provoke it (after all the geth is one continuousness) is to present yourself as a direct danger to it. I contented that it's behavior is one of the most morally sound behaviors.[/quote]

Or you could merely attempt communication with them.

[/quote]

Actually the geth are not just once concious, they are multiple conciouses working in unison. Each program you could consider an neuron sure, but it's also an person, much like how this forum operates. Programs = people, logging in, discussing things and forming concensus on decisions/disscussions to be made. This forum would be an excellent analogy as to how the geth collective would work.. execpt that we would be talking at FTL speeds. >.>

Modifié par Andrew_Waltfeld, 23 avril 2010 - 02:07 .

[cachx]

I always blow them up, I feel that "brainwashing" is worse than death, and if they're dead they'll have no chance to become a problem again. 

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

Shandepared wrote...

Show me this quote because I've certainly never heard it.

Talk with legion. heck, if I didn't have to go in 5 minutes, I would throw it up on youtube. Ask about the morning war.

No, you moron, it wouldn't be. The geth killed 99% of the quarian species. At some point the balanced was tipped in their failure but the geth continued to slaughter them enmass to the point that the only survivors were those who fled their own worlds. That is not self-defense, that is genocide. Interesting that apparently Legion regrets the war (according to you) but you don't. Perhaps I am wrong to state the geth have no morals. After all, I don't think you're a sociopath so you certainly have must have morals yet apparently the geth, mere computer programs, have more morals than you do. Or at the very least a deeper understanding of what happened.

.... yeah except the quarians did not GIVE UP attempting to get their colonies back even at this point in time. Numerous attempts were made after the morning war to get the colonies back even with their lowered population. You also don't consider the mentality state of the geth. They were equivlant of an bunch of 6 year olds reacting to an force trying to kill them. How well do you seriously think that would go? An bunch of 6 year olds minds in robot suits, reacting to an large groups of people killing them. When an force tries to kill you, you retiratiate, when they dont' stop, you tend to continue shooting them. You also completely ignored the fact that the geth had no idea on how organics worked and that when an organic is dead, that is the end of the line. For them, they could have easily assumed that they were killing other platforms. Why wouldn't they think that?

I have morals, and you assuming that I don't feel bad for the quarians is an very bad assumption on your part. Just becuase I side with the geth overall in the decision doesn't mean that I have forsaken the Quarians, I like them alot, but had I been in command, I would have evacuated the civilans long before the quarian lines started falling back. The quarians continued to fight. Period. EVEN when there was only an few million left. I give them kudo's for trying, but they should have stopped the moment they got kicked off the colonies. You assuming the quarians had no fault in this is silly considering the geth are considered to be sapient.

Andrew_Waltfeld

Yeah, they did. They could have easily crushed the quarians before they even got to the edge of the Persues Veil.

If they could have they would have.

No, they made an choice to stop persuing.

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

There was only couple million left, if that, more than likely in undefended ships or very battered warships. They let them go, legion said that they stopped persusing them and instead defended the terratory.

Right, they did not purseu them beyond the Perseus Veil and instead decided to take a defensive stance.

Wouldn't you if you were in the same situation as the geth? Trying to gain a grip on WTF is going on, and why these people are trying to kill you?

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

Actually the geth are not just once concious, they are multiple conciouses working in unison. Each program you could consider an neuron sure, but it's also an person, much like how this forum operates. Programs = people, logging in, discussing things and forming concensus on decisions/disscussions to be made.

Yeah, I know. What point are you feebly attempting to make? 

That your assumption that the geth is one person is right but also wrong at the time. Of course you just proved that you had known this fact, so the point is moot.

[Anacronian Stryx]

Stupid God - Since I'm a Paragon person there should always be a total Paragon solution to any problem i ever encounter!!.

[Koen Casier]

Shandepared wrote...
Which has nothing to do with the geth being without emotion and without morals. Making choices does not mean the geth have morals. Even animals make choices.

Animals don't make choices, animals (non sapient ones) have behaviors based on stimulation but don't make choices, a choice implies to understand more than mere short term cause and effect.

And no I don't advocate vivisection (since apparently there is chance I would be accused by you of doing that) since many animals are sentient (they have feelings of pain etc, and some even have rudimentary sense of self) just not sapience.

Also suddenly you equate that they can't have morals since they don't have emotions, no they don't have emotions but they do understand that living beings have them, that they are important, and they even try to take that into account: that is non emotional empathy.

Finally, reading your post is like reading a fk'ing legal document. I can see that you put a lot of work into it. A pity then that you're a delusional monster who makes excuses for the murder of billions upon billions of people and who completely disregards the information provided to you on the geth within the game.

guilty as charged; I'm not a native English speaker so I try to be as clear as possible to make my arguments correctly as I can and maybe if I started being ad hominem I would have less problems, since that would not require less thought. But I have to ask you for sake of my curiosity what did I say that contradicts geth canon?

[Splinter Cell 108]

This decision is morally ambiguous. I don't know whether it was a good idea to brainwash the Geth or not. However I'm thinking it's either that or all the Geth will become slaves to the Reapers if they win. Sovereign viewed the Geth's beilefs as a something stupid. If they are not rewritten then they will become slaves to the Reapers if they were to win or the Geth will always remain a threat to the galaxy and will damage the non heretic Geth's reputation.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

Splinter Cell 108 wrote...

This decision is morally ambiguous. I don't know whether it was a good idea to brainwash the Geth or not. However I'm thinking it's either that or all the Geth will become slaves to the Reapers if they win. Sovereign viewed the Geth's beilefs as a something stupid. If they are not rewritten then they will become slaves to the Reapers if they were to win or the Geth will always remain a threat to the galaxy and will damage the non heretic Geth's reputation.

I blew the herectic geth up. Didn't want them to corrupt the orginal geth.

[Koen Casier]

Shandepared wrote...

No, you moron, it wouldn't be. The geth killed 99% of the quarian species. At some point the balanced was tipped in their failure but the geth continued to slaughter them enmass to the point that the only survivors were those who fled their own worlds. That is not self-defense, that is genocide. Interesting that apparently Legion regrets the war (according to you) but you don't. Perhaps I am wrong to state the geth have no morals. After all, I don't think you're a sociopath so you certainly have must have morals yet apparently the geth, mere computer programs, have more morals than you do. Or at the very least a deeper understanding of what happened.

First: Really yet again with the quasi ad hominem? Secondly I don't think Andrew or I ever said we loved the war or thought that is was good or fun or something, simply that it was understandable, Andrew from the perspective of a nascent sentient being, I from the moral logical conclusion that if you defend yourself and kill the attacker in process you as defender have less of moral issue. I doubt that Andrew and I certainly don't go to our respective beds thinking "ha ha the geth killed billions of quarians what a great event if only they could do it again". It is a (fictional) tragedy.

Modifié par Koen Casier, 23 avril 2010 - 02:46 .