125 réponses à ce sujet

[BHRamsay]

If I didn't think Alistair needed help learning the ins and outs of ruling as a monarch Anora would have been on my shortlist for a nice quiet assassination ... I do not nor will I ever entirely trust the woman and if Eamon and Alistair are smart they will keep one eye on her at all times.

[metalcraze33]

no because she only sees him as a way to gain power and she would be the real power he would just be a figurehead.

[Sarah1281]

metalcraze33 wrote...

no because she only sees him as a way to gain power and she would be the real power he would just be a figurehead.

That's what she thinks will happen based on what Cailan's told her about him and, unhardened, she's right. If he is hardened then she's surprised to see how seriously he takes his duty and since they rule jointly she won't be able to relegate him to figurehead status as she conceivably could to the HNM.

[errant_knight]

Tinnic wrote...

Anora does have creepy daddy issues. CREEPY daddy issues and she is political in everything she does. I can see her looking forward to Alistair's calling. I can even see her secretly contracting mages to find a way to accelerate Alistair's calling and get him out of the way.

Still, I think there is a tiny, tiny, tiny chance that Anora can grow to love and be in love with Alistair. I guess it would be too much to wish that David Gaider sees this post and chooses to give us his opinion on whether the noble Templar can ever thaw the heart of the Ice Queen. A well.

Heh, it's a matter of the most utterly remote speculation for me, as it will never, never happen.

[eucatastrophe]

She and Alistair are probably on friendly sexless marriage terms. Companions for life thanks to fate.

The only person Anora can fully love is herself.

[Sarah1281]

eucatastrophe wrote...

She and Alistair are probably on friendly sexless marriage terms. Companions for life thanks to fate.
The only person Anora can fully love is herself.

Or her father and in a way its kind of creepy...

[eucatastrophe]

Sarah1281 wrote...

eucatastrophe wrote...

She and Alistair are probably on friendly sexless marriage terms. Companions for life thanks to fate.
The only person Anora can fully love is herself.

Or her father and in a way its kind of creepy...

TBH I never picked up on that. I thought their father/daughter relationship was very bittersweet. I also think between the two of them... Loghain is  the more "honourable" one.

[Sarah1281]

eucatastrophe wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

eucatastrophe wrote...

She and Alistair are probably on friendly sexless marriage terms. Companions for life thanks to fate.
The only person Anora can fully love is herself.

Or her father and in a way its kind of creepy...

TBH I never picked up on that. I thought their father/daughter relationship was very bittersweet. I also think between the two of them... Loghain is  the more "honourable" one.

It's not like I was trying to see creepiness but it just kind of hits you all at once with her obsession with that statue and her refusal to marry anyone she doesn't have to to keep the throne because they don't compare to her father. And I don't think anyone can deny that she loves him after she was willing to weaken her position at the Landsmeet in order to protest the Warden's decision to kill him. And the look on her face as she's splattered with his blood...yeah she'll throw him under a bus but she still cares about him more than anything short of the throne.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 24 avril 2010 - 04:35 .

[eucatastrophe]

I honestly thought she was going to faint when he gets killed on my first playthrough haha.

[Sarah1281]

eucatastrophe wrote...

I honestly thought she was going to faint when he gets killed on my first playthrough haha.

That's why my HN wished she could have spared Loghain; she kept comparing that to when the other Teyrn lay dying in front of his daughter and she was horrified that she did the same thing to Anora. Sadly, she wanted the throne and the only way to get that was by not sparing Loghain and pissing Alistair off.

[Sarah1281]

...Crap that's another Howe parallel, isn't it?

[CalJones]

SurelyForth wrote...

I'm looking at it from Alistair's perspective; I can't imagine Alistair would be happy with having to live with a woman who hero-worships a man that he hates, and if you let Loghain kill the Archdemon he's even more of a hero in her eyes, and in the eyes of the country. Alistair also is notedly more bitter about the marriage from the outset if you spare Loghain. 

Edited to add: When you spare Loghain, you always get that moment when Alistair tries to make himself king so that he can see justice done. Anora is standing right there when that happens. If the PC just goes ahead and executes Loghain, Alistair doesn't have a chance to express his opinion on the subject. She could very well not know the true depths of his hatred for Loghain if he is executed, while it's pretty obvious when he's spared.

In the toolset, it indicates that she was not fond of Cailan.

I suppose you can look at it both ways. I guess if they manage to love each other then it's in spite of what has gone before - there are a lot of obstacles in their way.

What does it say in the toolset about Cailan? (I was going on what she says about him if you talk to her after rescuing her from Howe).

[SurelyForth]

CalJones wrote...

I suppose you can look at it both ways. I guess if they manage to love each other then it's in spite of what has gone before - there are a lot of obstacles in their way.

What does it say in the toolset about Cailan? (I was going on what she says about him if you talk to her after rescuing her from Howe).

This is the specific note:

Anora: Ignoring that the man looks so much like Cailan--my recently-dead husband, if you'll recall--my main fear is that he might govern like Cailan as well. (terse disapproval -- she wasn't all that fond of Cailan and is not fond at the thought of marrying a man just like him)

Modifié par SurelyForth, 24 avril 2010 - 05:20 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

I personally think that the Anora / Alistair due is not as good as it may sound on paper. Sure, on paper, they complement each other's strengths and weaknesses. But to do that, they must be willing to complement each other. Anora, seeing how she looks up to her father, will never get along with Alistair, who will never get over his hatred for Loghain. So Loghain dead or alive wouldn't really matter, the duo is very much conflicted over this.

Second, both of them are King and Queen regent, meaning both have equal power. This is also problematic, especially if Alistair is hardened as he will attempt to challenge Anora. It means no one can really outrule the other, so if they come into conflict, they will probably reach stagnation point. Or worse, lead to civil war.
So while marrying Alistair to Anora seems like a good compromise and medium at first, I don't really see this as the best of outcomes.

Imo, Alistair and Anora ruling with Consorts seems to be the best option. Next comes Alistair (hardened) ruling with a chancellor or Anora ruling alone (she doesn't really need a chancellor, but there is the big problem of succession). I really think Anora and Alistair ruling together might *potentially* go very wrong. And that's not to mention that Anora is probably barren, making it even harder for Alistair to get an heir without pissing Anora off.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 avril 2010 - 05:15 .

[sleepingbelow]

 It could go wrong in a totally awesome way.  The Lion in Winter is one of my favorite films.  

Seriously though, like Sarah1281 says, if he's hardened, she's surprised how seriously he takes his duty.  That would lay a foundation for respect.  Once people respect each other and are of compatible preferences, all sorts of crazy things can happen.  Love is an emotion that is surprisingly not mutually exclusive from many emotions you would expect it to be.  You can be creeped out by who you love, you can be exasperated by who you love,  you can hate who you love (in the worst of circumstances).  Emotions are complicated and love circumvents all sorts of weird mental partitions.

The love I would find most interesting between them would be one that mixes rivalry, attraction, and respect in interesting ways, as they scheme and plot against each other, always holding back from the grand move that would sweep the other off the table.  Like Batman and Catwoman.  Except constantly scheming against each other to control a country.

EDIT- Sweep the other off the table or ONTO the table.  Bow chicka bow wow.

Modifié par sleepingbelow, 24 avril 2010 - 05:45 .

[Sarah1281]

The love I would find most interesting between them would be one that mixes rivalry, attraction, and respect in interesting ways, as they scheme and plot against each other, always holding back from the grand move that would sweep the other off the table. Like Batman and Catwoman. Except constantly scheming against each other to control a country.

That doensn't sound very good for the country which, as rulers, is their first responsibility. And doesn't the HNM/Anora epilogue slide say something about how some said that that rule would usher in a new golden age...if the power struggles you suggested were a good idea didn't stand in their way and hurt Ferelden.

[sleepingbelow]

Well, yeah. Sucks for Fereldan. Entertaining for me. I was just thinking about what would be interesting to me.



But at least in terms of how it turned out for Fereldan, the epilogue between a married Anora and hardened Alistair does have people whispering that the Blight and civil war were almost worth it to have such a beloved pair of rulers. That has to be a pretty awesome King and Queen to cash that check.



But back to love, I think real relationships can happen once two people respect each other. I think Anora would respect Alistair if he showed interest in what was most important to her, namely Fereldan. Despite Anora being an ice queen, I can see her loving Alistair. For me, the jury's still out on whether Alistair could love her, I would say it is influenced by the preceding events.

[CalJones]

[quote]SurelyForth wrote...
 Cailan? (I was going on what she says about him if you talk to her after rescuing her from Howe).[/quote]

This is the specific note:

Anora: Ignoring that the man looks so much like Cailan--my recently-dead husband, if you'll recall--my main fear is that he might govern like Cailan as well. (terse disapproval -- she wasn't all that fond of Cailan and is not fond at the thought of marrying a man just like him)[/quote]

Interesting. I just took that comment as that she didn't approve of Cailan's ability to govern, which was why she took it upon herself to do so in his stead, while he was playing with his swords. From her other comments she does seem genuinely fond of him.

I guess you can take it two ways. There's a lot of stuff in the toolset that got changed (eg Alistair's age) - this could be one of those things. Or that Anora is pretending to show emotion for Cailan in order to make herself look less of an ice queen to the Warden.

Are there any bracketed comments linked to other parts of this conversation?

@KoP - There's really no hard evidence that Anora is barren. She may just not want children, which I can relate to as an only child who has never had any interest in squeezing one out - or she may just have wanted to put it off, being more of a career woman-archetype. We know from one of Wynne's banters that there are ways to avoid conception so Anora could just have been sneaking the relevant herbal concoction or, perhaps claiming tiredness and headaches on a regular basis.
The result is the same, of course, so it's a moot point, really.

Modifié par CalJones, 24 avril 2010 - 07:00 .

[eucatastrophe]

CalJones, given the type of woman Anora is (throne-hugging, driven, calculating), do you not think she would strengthen every thread she had to throne? That is, she would have tried to have Calian's child ASAP given the weight of importance the nobles bestow on Theirin blood.

[Tinnic]

OMG! I just saw the cut-scene of Anora and Alistair getting crowned together and Alistair made the sweet gesture of trying to hold Anora's hand and she just snatched it away and rebuffed him! It was like watching a bucket of cold water being thrown on Alistair! That certainly does not spell marital bliss from Alistair and Anora in the short run.



Poor Alistair, he isn't even one of those men who are likely to have a string of mistresses to compliment his sexless marriage, like Cailan clearly did. But I do think hardened Alistair has a chance to make Anora love him, but I don't think he would go after her. If you know what I mean. He would just leave her be, and do his thing and maybe, maybe overtime Anora - pleased to find that he is not like Cailan, might warm to him and then go after him. With Alistair, I think he would draw on all the disciple they taught him at the chantry during Templar training to live with Anora as best he could and do his duty by Feraldan. Which might also attract Anora.



Of course, the irony here is that even if Anora found herself head over heel in love with Alistair, she might not possess the qualities to attract Alistair and make him love her!

[CalJones]

eucatastrophe - possibly...possibly not. Given what Loghain says to a Cousland married to Anora in Awakening, it seems more like she's not keen. (Then again some women start out very averse to the idea of having children but then change and grow into it. I'm one of a small percentage that did not change and am entirely devoid of any maternal instinct. It's just the way I'm wired).

I remember reading somewhere (don't know where, sorry - might be in the Codex) that Anora often found it irritating that she'd been born female so perhaps she just doesn't want to play a typical female role. Who knows, she may even be gay and having naughty tumbles with Erlina while Cailan twirls his pike.

It's all wild speculation though - we've no real evidence of anything so draw your own conclusions.



Incidentally, I've only ever had the hand slapping cut-scene when Loghain died at Landsmeet. If Anora and Alistair marry, but Loghain is recruited, I just see Anora being crowned. Is this true for everyone? (And I wonder why...they marry and rule together either way).

[Tinnic]

Massamies wrote...

CalJones wrote...
@KoP - There's really no hard evidence that Anora is barren. She may just not want children, which I can relate to as an only child who has never had any interest in squeezing one out - or she may just have wanted to put it off, being more of a career woman-archetype. We know from one of Wynne's banters that there are ways to avoid conception so Anora could just have been sneaking the relevant herbal concoction or, perhaps claiming tiredness and headaches on a regular basis.
The result is the same, of course, so it's a moot point, really.

That would be horribly irresponsible. Since Theirin bloodline has only 2 persons, one of them bastard, producing an heir should be the top priority. She must also realize this and should be afraid of pressure on Cailan to dump her. Also Anora knows of Alistair, so she would really want to get heir because having underaged heir would guarantee that she gets at least regency if Cailan dies. Childless consort always gets thrown out if there is blood heir to the throne. The only way how consorts have been able to stick to power in case the de jure ruling monarch dies, has been as parent of the next, presently underaged heir. Anora is not that stupid that she would not try to seal her power by getting a child. If she would be parent to next Theirin, Landsmeet would automatically crown her.

Yes, I think saying that Anora does not want a child is applying a modern concept to a setting that can't really sustain it. Ambitious women in yester years did have children as a way of securing power, wealth, prestige. In addition, while I am sure a lot of women are averse to the act of child birth itself - they don't like the idea of being pregnant and find the idea of giving birth repulsive, many women who don't want children simply do not want to RAISE children. Noble women rarely raised their own children back in the olden days. As soon as they were born, they were palmed off to a wet nurse and essentially raised by nurse-maids and governesses later on. Only a handful of women actually raised their own children and these women wanted to be mothers.

Given how power hungry Anora is, I am sure she would have forced herself to get over whatever issues she had with being pregnant and giving birth. She would have known that she didn't actually have to actively raise the child. Heck, she could have even had the child sent away to Gwaren! So really, having a child wouldn't slow her down in any way and would simply be a means to an end. Anora, we know, will do anything for power. However, Anora not conceiving Cailan's child could simply have been because Cailan didn't touch her much. I mean, she is a fairly repulsive person.

[nos_astra]

CalJones wrote...
Incidentally, I've only ever had the hand slapping cut-scene when Loghain died at Landsmeet. If Anora and Alistair marry, but Loghain is recruited, I just see Anora being crowned. Is this true for everyone? (And I wonder why...they marry and rule together either way).

After all the inconsistencies the recycling of cutscenes and dialogue causes in the game? I'd say it's wishful thinking, the scene is the same no matter what happened.

Modifié par klarabella, 24 avril 2010 - 09:35 .

[Oogrooq]

Can she ever grow to love is the question. She is a soulless ****.