125 réponses à ce sujet

[Lowenhart]

Tinnic wrote...

I guess there are couple of variables here. Firstly, Alistair himself can be hardened or unhardened. Then there is the point whether the PC warden continues to be "in the picture". I mean, I just arranged for Alistair to me Anora while my PC was romancing Alistair and Anora made the point of asking if the PC was going to remain in the picture. Saying that Cailan had his women and wondered if she was going to be in another marriage where her husbands eyes were else where. My PC told her that she wasn't going to be in the picture. Anora seemed pleased.

Anyway, so the question is, do you think Anora is capable of loving Alistair. For that matter, do you think Alistair can grow to love Anora? 

Well imagine it wont be entirely fun considering how a like Cailin and Aliaster are as persons, and despite what some might think Anora did actually love Cailin, And somehow i dont think Cailin had anyone on the side, seeing as the 2 grew up together and everything i doubt he would do that to Anora her that to him. Anora also even if she is very practical minded is also quite a romantic even if its a bit hard to miss at first sight, since she quite good at hiding putting her emotions aside to be a good ruler.

[sylvanaerie]

SurelyForth wrote...

CalJones wrote...

I suppose you can look at it both ways. I guess if they manage to love each other then it's in spite of what has gone before - there are a lot of obstacles in their way.

What does it say in the toolset about Cailan? (I was going on what she says about him if you talk to her after rescuing her from Howe).

This is the specific note:

Anora: Ignoring that the man looks so much like Cailan--my recently-dead husband, if you'll recall--my main fear is that he might govern like Cailan as well. (terse disapproval -- she wasn't all that fond of Cailan and is not fond at the thought of marrying a man just like him)

well heck.  I thought she at least liked him as a friend.  She even sounds pissed when she asks Loghain if he killed Cailan and doesn't look satisfied with his answer.  Maybe she is having trouble reconciling her image of Loghain with the man who is sitting as Regent and has Howe whispering in his ear and wondering JUST what his motives truly are.

[CalJones]

Tinnic, that's pretty harsh to say she's repulsive. She's one of the prettiest characters in the game. Ice queen, yes, but some men like the challenge of thawing out those panties (I bet Zevran would!). And some men enjoy being a powerful woman's toy. I can imagine that Anora would be a very attractive proposition to many.

[Tinnic]

CalJones wrote...

Tinnic, that's pretty harsh to say she's repulsive. She's one of the prettiest characters in the game. Ice queen, yes, but some men like the challenge of thawing out those panties (I bet Zevran would!). And some men enjoy being a powerful woman's toy. I can imagine that Anora would be a very attractive proposition to many.

Her being absolutely repulsive has nothing to do with her looks and everything to do with her personality. In addition, the fact that some men might like her also does not reduce her repulsiveness. I wouldn't be surprised if both Cailan and Alistair found her sexually repulsive. Indeed, Alistair has more chance of closing his eyes and doing his duty as a king then Cailan ever did.

[Sarah1281]

Lowenhart wrote...

 Anora also even if she is very practical minded is also quite a romantic even if its a bit hard to miss at first sight, since she quite good at hiding putting her emotions aside to be a good ruler.

Anora a romantic? How so?

[soignee]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Lowenhart wrote...

 Anora also even if she is very practical minded is also quite a romantic even if its a bit hard to miss at first sight, since she quite good at hiding putting her emotions aside to be a good ruler.

Anora a romantic? How so?

She loved Cailan in her own way. The talk of her Father and Mother and the roses was all sorts of sweetness.

In answer to the original topic: history of arranged marriages says yes, it is possible to fall in love in a political marriage.

[Xandurpein]

I think that the fact that Anora and Cailan didn't have much of sex life can probably be explained by timing too. Cailan is younger than Anora and by the time Cailan reach those swkward years when boys want to experiment with sexual groping, then he is several years younger than her. Not exactly what a girl dreams of, even if she had been a passionate woman in the first place. At the same time there must have been lots of girls willing to put up with a lot from a royal prince. It's no wonder if those early years before Cailan matures enough to see beyond his own satisfaction marked their whole relationship.

[CalJones]

Tinnic wrote...
Her being absolutely repulsive has nothing to do with her looks and everything to do with her personality. In addition, the fact that some men might like her also does not reduce her repulsiveness. I wouldn't be surprised if both Cailan and Alistair found her sexually repulsive. Indeed, Alistair has more chance of closing his eyes and doing his duty as a king then Cailan ever did.

You find her repulsive, but you don't speak for everyone. My male Cousland thought she was a saucy minx and was happy to marry her. Alistair may have issues because of who her father is - Cailan, not so much. Cailan and Anora grew up together and played together as friends (see Loghain's dialogue) . Their relationship may have been more friendly than romantic but I highly doubt he was repulsed by her.
Moreover, just because there's no child doesn't mean there's no sex.

Re: ages, I don't think Anora's very much older than Cailan - maybe one or two years. She says she has been betrothed since he was born and she was swaddled (in nappies, basically) so she was still a baby - just an older baby. Those kind of age differences are negligible.

[nos_astra]

CalJones wrote...
Re: ages, I don't think Anora's very much older than Cailan - maybe one or two years. She says she has been betrothed since he was born and she was swaddled (in nappies, basically) so she was still a baby - just an older baby. Those kind of age differences are negligible.

Cailan was 25. Anora is a little bit older, approximately 28, I'd say.

Since the thread is about Anora growing to love Alistair. Alistair is probably 21 by the time they marry.

[Tinnic]

CalJones wrote...

Tinnic wrote...
Her being absolutely repulsive has nothing to do with her looks and everything to do with her personality. In addition, the fact that some men might like her also does not reduce her repulsiveness. I wouldn't be surprised if both Cailan and Alistair found her sexually repulsive. Indeed, Alistair has more chance of closing his eyes and doing his duty as a king then Cailan ever did.

You find her repulsive, but you don't speak for everyone. My male Cousland thought she was a saucy minx and was happy to marry her. Alistair may have issues because of who her father is - Cailan, not so much. Cailan and Anora grew up together and played together as friends (see Loghain's dialogue) . Their relationship may have been more friendly than romantic but I highly doubt he was repulsed by her.
Moreover, just because there's no child doesn't mean there's no sex.

I didn't say everybody found her repulsive. But there are many who would find her absolutely repulsive. But the fact remains, given the nature of monarchies, either Anora and Cailan don't have children because either she's barren or they weren't having sex. If Anora and Cailan did not have children because Anora doesn't want kids, then Anora is unfit to be a Queen consort and Eamon was right to advice Cailan to set her aside and probably would advice Alistair does the same, should she and Alistair not have kids within an appropriate length of time. Harsh, but that is the reality of being Queen-consort.

I mean, I remember when a couple of years back, when Crown Prince Fredrick of Denmark was getting married to Mary, his bride to be had to have a fertility test before she was approved to be Crown Princess Mary. Simply put, Anora's personal preferences amount to nothing and she knows this. No way she didn't have kids because of personal preferences. She didn't have kids because she was either unable: barren, or her husband was ignoring her in favour of other women. So really, take your pick. No children either means she's barren or they weren't having sex.

[Sarah1281]

No children either means she's barren or they weren't having sex.

We don't know that. It's a medieval misconception that's still hanging around that if a couple is childless the woman is barren. We have no evidence that Cailan is fertile and given his concerns about an heir and his apparently numerous affairs he fact he doesn't have a bastard somewhere could be quite telling.

[Herr Uhl]

Tinnic wrote...

I didn't say everybody found her repulsive. But there are many who would find her absolutely repulsive. But the fact remains, given the nature of monarchies, either Anora and Cailan don't have children because either she's barren or they weren't having sex.

So really, take your pick. No children either means she's barren or they weren't having sex.

Males can have lazy sperm too. Or can you prove that Cailan was fertile?

Edit: *shakes fist at ninjas*

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 24 avril 2010 - 05:13 .

[silverholly83]

Like others have said, I think it depends on Alistair being hardened or not. I think that they might love eachother one day, but it would take a while. 

I also don't find Anora's refusing to marry because no one meausres up to her father creepy at all. Logain has quite a lot of admirable and useful qualities that would be ideal in a royal partner. He has a sharp mind and wit. He's forceful, practical, and focused. He has an incredible imagination. He knows the "box" and is able to think outside it.  He's a planner and is flexible. He is dedicated and loyal. He can be romantic and knows when to show it. He seeks knowledge and ways to apply it. He can lead and follow. He doesn't suffer fools but looks for wisdom in all things. He can make difficult decisions without letting personal feelings get in the way. He doesn't just roll over, he'll debate and argue with valid points. Hardened Alistair has the potential to aquire and display all those talents.

I think Anora has a lot of the qualities of the female Warden that  Alistair traveled with and (possibly) loved, so if she is willing to open up to him a little I think they'll be fine.

Modifié par silverholly83, 24 avril 2010 - 05:17 .

[Sarah1281]

But there are many who would find her absolutely repulsive

I would also like to add that that really doesn't say anything about Anora herself. If you choose anyone at all and ask everyone if they would like to have sex with them then there would be many who find them repulsive and others who would be drawn to them. It's a matter of personal preference and the more attractive a person is (and physically Anora makes out just fine) the more people will like them but I don't think Anora is so horribly unpleasant that she couldn't find a noble to marry if she wanted to.

[nos_astra]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Tinnic wrote...

I didn't say everybody found her repulsive. But there are many who would find her absolutely repulsive. But the fact remains, given the nature of monarchies, either Anora and Cailan don't have children because either she's barren or they weren't having sex.

So really, take your pick. No children either means she's barren or they weren't having sex.

Males can have lazy sperm too. Or can you prove that Cailan was fertile?

Edit: *shakes fist at ninjas*

Logic. Why would the writers put in rumors about Anora if they didn't have any intentions to blame the lack of children on her?

[Herr Uhl]

klarabella wrote...

Logic. Why would the writers put in rumors about Anora if they didn't have any intentions to blame the lack of children on her?

Because it's the nature of things if the other partner is the one with royal blood. Hoping that it's her fault is logical.

Cailan with lazy swimmers = Disaster

Anora barren = Need for more fertile lands

[Sarah1281]

klarabella wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Tinnic wrote...

I didn't say everybody found her repulsive. But there are many who would find her absolutely repulsive. But the fact remains, given the nature of monarchies, either Anora and Cailan don't have children because either she's barren or they weren't having sex.

So really, take your pick. No children either means she's barren or they weren't having sex.

Males can have lazy sperm too. Or can you prove that Cailan was fertile?

Edit: *shakes fist at ninjas*

Logic. Why would the writers put in rumors about Anora if they didn't have any intentions to blame the lack of children on her?

Because even today people are more likely to assume a woman has problems with reproduction than a man does and historically it was just a given. A woman doesn't get pregnant, she can't. A man doesn't get her pregnant, he should find somebody else. Besides, a lot of the rumors had to do with her being 'cursed'  for not being noble enough so they should be taken with a grain of salt. Eamon doesn't even consider that Cailan could be infertile because he's the only Theirin left so if he doesn't have an heir the bloodline dies out. Far easier to try and get some other girl pregnant than to deal with the political and national identity problems losing the royal line will cause.

[sleepingbelow]

Tinnic wrote...

OMG! I just saw the cut-scene of Anora and Alistair getting crowned together and Alistair made the sweet gesture of trying to hold Anora's hand and she just snatched it away and rebuffed him! It was like watching a bucket of cold water being thrown on Alistair! That certainly does not spell marital bliss from Alistair and Anora in the short run.

You know, I've always heard about this scene but I've never seen it.  I think whenever I've married Alistair and Anora I see the Anora getting crowned scene.  Is that the reason why?  What conditions do you have to fulfill to see them get crowned together and Alistair shut down?

[Herr Uhl]

sleepingbelow wrote...

Tinnic wrote...

OMG! I just saw the cut-scene of Anora and Alistair getting crowned together and Alistair made the sweet gesture of trying to hold Anora's hand and she just snatched it away and rebuffed him! It was like watching a bucket of cold water being thrown on Alistair! That certainly does not spell marital bliss from Alistair and Anora in the short run.

You know, I've always heard about this scene but I've never seen it.  I think whenever I've married Alistair and Anora I see the Anora getting crowned scene.  Is that the reason why?  What conditions do you have to fulfill to see them get crowned together and Alistair shut down?

Might be unhardened, I got it on my first playthrough. Have not married them since.

And boo friggin hoo about her not wanting to hold the hand of the brother of her lost husband whom also bears an eerie resemblance to said husband in both demeanor and looks. She should be skipping to the altar in joy.

[Nightfish103]

I doubt Anora can love anyone except for herself. She's hella creepy. I didn't notice it on my first playthrough, but she's probably more despicable than Loghain. She dangerous.

[Sarah1281]

You know, I've always heard about this scene but I've never seen it. I think whenever I've married Alistair and Anora I see the Anora getting crowned scene. Is that the reason why? What conditions do you have to fulfill to see them get crowned together and Alistair shut down?

I always get it whenever I marry them but kill Loghain. If Loghain lives then Anora tends to get her solo cutscene, which is weird as they're both coronated.

I doubt Anora can love anyone except for herself. She's hella creepy. I didn't notice it on my first playthrough, but she's probably more despicable than Loghain. She dangerous.

She loves her father, possibly overly so. She's just willing to sacrifice him for power. Why do you think she's worse than Loghain?

[Tinnic]

Sarah1281 wrote...

klarabella wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Tinnic wrote...

I didn't say everybody found her repulsive. But there are many who would find her absolutely repulsive. But the fact remains, given the nature of monarchies, either Anora and Cailan don't have children because either she's barren or they weren't having sex.

So really, take your pick. No children either means she's barren or they weren't having sex.

Males can have lazy sperm too. Or can you prove that Cailan was fertile?

Edit: *shakes fist at ninjas*

Logic. Why would the writers put in rumors about Anora if they didn't have any intentions to blame the lack of children on her?

Because even today people are more likely to assume a woman has problems with reproduction than a man does and historically it was just a given. A woman doesn't get pregnant, she can't. A man doesn't get her pregnant, he should find somebody else. Besides, a lot of the rumors had to do with her being 'cursed'  for not being noble enough so they should be taken with a grain of salt. Eamon doesn't even consider that Cailan could be infertile because he's the only Theirin left so if he doesn't have an heir the bloodline dies out. Far easier to try and get some other girl pregnant than to deal with the political and national identity problems losing the royal line will cause.

Cailan could be the problem too. I will freely admit that I am probably zeroing in on Anora because I don't like her. Could be the case for Eamon as well, i.e. his dislike of Anora influences his judgement of their lack of children. But here is the thing. IF Anora could have children and Cailan was the problem, she could have gotten herself pregnant with a suitable Cailan look alike and passed it off as Cailan's. If they were having regular sex, Cailan wouldn't have any cause to question her. This too is not an unheard of scenario in royal marriages and again, would work to cement Anora's position on the throne. The fact she didn't could either mean that even Anora has limits or she couldn't have children and knew she couldn't have children. Whichever way, whether Anora was the problem or not, the longer she remained childless, the more in danger she was of being set aside by Cailan, even if Cailan was the problem.

[Sarah1281]

But here is the thing. IF Anora could have children and Cailan was the problem, she could have gotten herself pregnant with a suitable Cailan look alike and passed it off as Cailan's. If they were having regular sex, Cailan wouldn't have any cause to question her. This too is not an unheard of scenario in royal marriages and again, would work to cement Anora's position on the throne. The fact she didn't could either mean that even Anora has limits or she couldn't have children and knew she couldn't have children. Whichever way, whether Anora was the problem or not, the longer she remained childless, the more in danger she was of being set aside by Cailan, even if Cailan was the problem.

Since blaming the woman was so widely done especially back then she could have also thought she was the problem but there was really no way to tell unless either Anora got pregnant or Cailan got someone pregnant.

[Herr Uhl]

Tinnic wrote...

Cailan could be the problem too. I will freely admit that I am probably zeroing in on Anora because I don't like her. Could be the case for Eamon as well, i.e. his dislike of Anora influences his judgement of their lack of children. But here is the thing. IF Anora could have children and Cailan was the problem, she could have gotten herself pregnant with a suitable Cailan look alike and passed it off as Cailan's. If they were having regular sex, Cailan wouldn't have any cause to question her. This too is not an unheard of scenario in royal marriages and again, would work to cement Anora's position on the throne. The fact she didn't could either mean that even Anora has limits or she couldn't have children and knew she couldn't have children. Whichever way, whether Anora was the problem or not, the longer she remained childless, the more in danger she was of being set aside by Cailan, even if Cailan was the problem.

I think that she actually cared for her husband and had no extra-martial affairs out of respect for him. And that she actually possesses feelings.

[BHRamsay]

If I didnt think of her as a cold @ss 8itch I might feel sorry for Anora.

She was married to one man who resented her for being able to command and rule a country.

She was used as a pawn by her father who she clearly loved.

and (depending on the PC's actions) she now finds her self married to yet another man who has very good reasons for not trusting her and keeping her at arms length.