125 réponses à ce sujet

[Xandurpein]

Tinnic wrote...

Taritu wrote...

Queen Elizabeth the first never had a husband because if she did, she'd lose a lot of her power. While it seems that women in Ferelden don't lose all their power, Anora seems to think the same way.

Queen Elizabeth was a tudor. SHE was the blood heir to the throne. The case of Anora is more the situation of Catherine II of Russia. Who married into the royal family. 

Edit: Come of think of it, I think Anora might have been fashioned after Catherine II of Russia...

I doubt that. Catherine II of Russia is reputed to have led a rather boisterous private life and taking many lovers. I think Anora is much closer to "the Virgin Queen" Elizabeth.

[Xandurpein]

CalJones wrote...

Although if he's hardened there's a line in the epilogue about him surprising her by his willingness to learn how to govern. So I daresay it's possible she can grow to respect him...though only if he overcomes his Loghain issues. That's going to be the main stumbling block.

I think that you are right in that they can both come to respect each other. It really is hard to imagine them ruling as effecticly as the end plate suggests if they don't learn to respect each other. I still think they are to different to reach the kind of intimacy that could lead to love. Anora might come to feel a certain affection for Alistair, but I can't see how Anora could ever make Alistair feel wanted, given how unsubtle he is in his feelings.

[Miri1984]

 To be honest, no I don't think so. Not considering who her father is. I think Alistair would try though, because he would see it as his duty and also because he'd want to love her - after all he's not really the type to cheat (unless you're convincing him to do a dark ritual) so his only real chance at getting any ever is if Anora comes to the party. Poor chook.

As for the barrenness thing - she is very concerned about keeping power, and pregnancy is a risk in those days for any woman. Perhaps she just doesn't want to die in childbirth? That's a very good way of not-being-queen anymore!

[Maria13]

Miri1984 wrote...

 To be honest, no I don't think so. Not considering who her father is. I think Alistair would try though, because he would see it as his duty and also because he'd want to love her - after all he's not really the type to cheat (unless you're convincing him to do a dark ritual) so his only real chance at getting any ever is if Anora comes to the party. Poor chook.

As for the barrenness thing - she is very concerned about keeping power, and pregnancy is a risk in those days for any woman. Perhaps she just doesn't want to die in childbirth? That's a very good way of not-being-queen anymore!

I think you make two good points here, but I disagree with the first.  I think the use of the word "cheat" confuses the issue.  In the course of the game Alistair discovers sex and there is no rowing back from that.  He can be pursuaded to take a mistress if he loves her, he can be pursuaded to participate in a threesome because he's curious (and it seems he enjoys it).   Let's leave the Dark Ritual to one side because that was forced upon him. I really don't think  he will resign himself to never having sex again if Anora doesn't party, but he may not be dishonest about it, lack of chastity and dishonesty or cheating are not the same things, though they often go together.  

There's the George Clooney approach:  He's on record as saying that he'd never run for political office in the states because he'd have to run as a candidate for the "I did that" party and there's the Tiger Woods approach, dishonesty followed by sackcloth and ashes .

Your second point.  Agree entirely.  Look how many motherless characters there are in game.  Sex for women in a society lacking minimum medical standards is a high-risk activity.  Not only could you loose your life, your health and your physical integrity might be permanently impaired.  Anora strikes me as a woman who does her sums and she's concluded that the risk ain't worth it.

[Tinnic]

Massamies wrote...

Royal reproduction is consort's only official duty, and if you fail in that marriage can get annulled, and there was already pressure on Cailan to do so and rumors going around that Anora's barrenness is punishment from Maker for putting commoner on the throne. Maybe he was even starting to give into pressure considering how his guard at the Ostagar told that Loghain and Cailan fought over the queen. 

Exactly! I repeat, whatever Anora's personal desires, she doesn't get a say in the matter. She produces an heir or gets set aside. In addition, please don't disparage the magic based medical system of Feralden. As the Queen, Anora as access to the best Spirit Healers in the kingdom. She isn't about to die in child birth. 

[Xandurpein]

Tinnic wrote...

Massamies wrote...

Royal reproduction is consort's only official duty, and if you fail in that marriage can get annulled, and there was already pressure on Cailan to do so and rumors going around that Anora's barrenness is punishment from Maker for putting commoner on the throne. Maybe he was even starting to give into pressure considering how his guard at the Ostagar told that Loghain and Cailan fought over the queen. 

Exactly! I repeat, whatever Anora's personal desires, she doesn't get a say in the matter. She produces an heir or gets set aside. In addition, please don't disparage the magic based medical system of Feralden. As the Queen, Anora as access to the best Spirit Healers in the kingdom. She isn't about to die in child birth. 

That really depends on the consort. If reproduction was a clear requirement, then really the HNF marrying Alistair would never even be an option. So lets be realistic here. All we really know is that Eamon, who is a very conservative old Harrowmont type, is upset about the lack of heirs for Cailan. Unless someone can point to anything in game suggesting that the lack of heirs is something that was becoming an issue for the rest of Fereldan.

Historically, many royal consorts would be a woman traded off as part of a political deal or possibly a strong King takes a fancy to a beautiful noblewomen. Such a consort is not expected to do anything else but produce heirs and look pretty. I think we can all agree that this doesn't describe Anora. Anora is a political forces herself. She runs a big part of the royal administration, she has clout and political alliances. She is not someone to just put aside.

I don't see how you can substantiate the theory that Anora has to produce an heir or be put aside. Especially as it's clearly allowed for Alistair to marry a Cousland female with virtually no chance of producing an heir to begin with. Producing heirs is clearly something important, but so is other things. It's may become an issue for Anora, but it's hardly make or break.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 25 avril 2010 - 10:28 .

[Xandurpein]

Massamies wrote...

Ruling monarch is free to share power as she or he wishes, even make chancellor or consort de facto ruling monarch, but that kind of chancellor or consort can get fired legally as well as other kinds.

In theory ruling monarch's can legally do a lot of things that is not possible in practice due to political realities.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 25 avril 2010 - 10:33 .

[CalJones]

Depends on the monarch. Look at Henry VIII. He wanted a divorce, Catholic church said hell no, so Henry said screw you, I'm starting my own church then.

Modifié par CalJones, 25 avril 2010 - 10:36 .

[Xandurpein]

CalJones wrote...

Depends on the monarch. Look at Henry VIII. He wanted a divorce, Catholic church said hell no, so Henry said screw you, I'm starting my own church then.

Depends on the Queen too. None of his Queen's had the power base Anora has. And Alistair really doesn't have the ruthlessness Henry VIII had either. The plate for Alistair and Anora marries shows that he often deferred to her. Now whether he loved her or they even shared bed together is a matter of conjecture, but clearly he didn't put her aside.

Personally I'd also like to keep the image that Alistair isn't the kind of guy who forces himself into a woman's bed, even to produce heirs...

[Tinnic]

We only really see Feralden while the King and Queen are still young. Neither are expected to die anytime soon and even Alistair has 20-30 years before the calling. So heredity is not likely to be a common concern yet. Anora does have political clout and if attempts were made to set her aside, it might well have led to civil war.



However, when succession REALLY became an issue, when Anora was past child bearing age or Cailan/Alistair were close to their deaths, then you can bet your ass the commoners would be worried. If only because with no clear heir a civil war or even an invasion would be on the horizon. At that point the populous really wouldn't care what happened to Anora. Just that someone produced an heir.



I mean, think about it this way. Elizabeth I could remain childless because Scotland had a king who had a claim to the English throne. That was enough to ensure that England would not degrade in a warring faction of Lords vying for power. Feralden has no such luck. Which basically means that at some point, assuming that the royal couple remains childless the landsmeet would have to meet and decide who would succeed the throne. At that point, it could go smoothly or very, very, very wrong! I personally see Orlais invading again if Anora and Alistair fail to produce and heir. And this time, there would be no Moira Rebel Queen or Maric the Saviour.

[Xandurpein]

Tinnic wrote...

We only really see Feralden while the King and Queen are still young. Neither are expected to die anytime soon and even Alistair has 20-30 years before the calling. So heredity is not likely to be a common concern yet. Anora does have political clout and if attempts were made to set her aside, it might well have led to civil war.

However, when succession REALLY became an issue, when Anora was past child bearing age or Cailan/Alistair were close to their deaths, then you can bet your ass the commoners would be worried. If only because with no clear heir a civil war or even an invasion would be on the horizon. At that point the populous really wouldn't care what happened to Anora. Just that someone produced an heir.

I mean, think about it this way. Elizabeth I could remain childless because Scotland had a king who had a claim to the English throne. That was enough to ensure that England would not degrade in a warring faction of Lords vying for power. Feralden has no such luck. Which basically means that at some point, assuming that the royal couple remains childless the landsmeet would have to meet and decide who would succeed the throne. At that point, it could go smoothly or very, very, very wrong! I personally see Orlais invading again if Anora and Alistair fail to produce and heir. And this time, there would be no Moira Rebel Queen or Maric the Saviour.

I still think that they could adopt someone and groom as heir. But even if it came to what you think and Fereldan devolved into civil war after Alistair and Anora both died childlessly, it still isn't the same as saying that Alistair can just cast Anora aside to avoid it. After all a risk of civil war after he is gone, may still be preferable to inevitable civil war if he breaks with Anora.

[Xandurpein]

Massamies wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

CalJones wrote...

Depends on the monarch. Look at Henry VIII. He wanted a divorce, Catholic church said hell no, so Henry said screw you, I'm starting my own church then.

Depends on the Queen too. None of his Queen's had the power base Anora has. 

Still it is only shared power that Cailan has right to take away. Succession can get messy even within royal line if the ruling monarch has no children, end of royal line pretty much asks for epic mess, so Cailan would have had to make a choice sooner or later: dump Anora or get an inglorious bastard.

Casting Anora aside would be guaranteed to be an epic mess too...

/Edit. Look at the civil war in England between King Edward II and his Queen Isabella. Casting out a powerful Queen can get really messy.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 25 avril 2010 - 10:58 .

[CalJones]

Xandurpein wrote...

CalJones wrote...

Depends on the monarch. Look at Henry VIII. He wanted a divorce, Catholic church said hell no, so Henry said screw you, I'm starting my own church then.

Depends on the Queen too. None of his Queen's had the power base Anora has. And Alistair really doesn't have the ruthlessness Henry VIII had either. The plate for Alistair and Anora marries shows that he often deferred to her. Now whether he loved her or they even shared bed together is a matter of conjecture, but clearly he didn't put her aside.

Personally I'd also like to keep the image that Alistair isn't the kind of guy who forces himself into a woman's bed, even to produce heirs...

Whoops, yes, I wasn't suggesting Alistair (or Cailan) divorce Anora if she doesn't pop out an heir. My point was just that ruling monarchs can sometimes change the rules if they don't like the game. I could just have easily picked Korean king Sejong the Great, who decided to invent a new alphabet because he decided the Chinese one they were using was too difficult. Strangely fitting that I picked Henry, though, due to the obvious parallels, so sorry for the confusion.

Henry VIII did indeed ditch Catherine of Aragon for failing to produce a living male heir (she did produce several who died, and of course, Queen Mary I). Funnily enough, Catherine does seem quite Anora-like, serving as Henry's regent while he was in France and being considered rather formidable. Interestingly, Henry wasn't her first husband, but married her after she had been widowed.

[SarEnyaDor]

I'm going to take the snarky route and say no, because (like the Grinch) her heart is three sizes too small.



While it is true that love *can* grow over time in arranged marriages, that certainly isn't a rule, and there typically aren't big factors (feelings about Loghain and his actions) standing between them then. Most of the time love grows because of the children, it is hard to not love someone who adores your child and cares for them (reason why nannies are the number one affair LOL)



I seriously don't see that happening between Alistair and Anora, even if he was never romanced. Alistair *HATES* Loghain and Anora worships him. That would be a huge obstacle in the best of circumstances, but add to that Alistair's idealism and Anora's ****iness calculated approach to life and I think a middle ground will be hard to find. There are no fond memories, good times, moments of happiness that they shared between them to look back on to keep fights from getting ugly, to temper hard words, there will be no children to work together to try to raise...



I don't think the soil here is rich enough to grow that seed.

[Miri1984]

As far as the heir situation goes, I find it very difficult to believe that Maric was an only child of an only child ad infinitum - the Theirin blood would still be out there. And it seems that the Couslands have a pretty good claim to the throne on their own - so really Fergus's kids would have a chance as well (assuming he remarries). And there's still Fiona's child knocking around somewhere, if that happens to NOT be Alistair. Alistair was the strongest claimant to the throne, and Anora was probably the second strongest, but I'm pretty sure they weren't the only ones. With a bit of juggling, Alistair and Anora could name their own successors, and the Chantry would back them.

[Xandurpein]

Miri1984 wrote...

As far as the heir situation goes, I find it very difficult to believe that Maric was an only child of an only child ad infinitum - the Theirin blood would still be out there. And it seems that the Couslands have a pretty good claim to the throne on their own - so really Fergus's kids would have a chance as well (assuming he remarries). And there's still Fiona's child knocking around somewhere, if that happens to NOT be Alistair. Alistair was the strongest claimant to the throne, and Anora was probably the second strongest, but I'm pretty sure they weren't the only ones. With a bit of juggling, Alistair and Anora could name their own successors, and the Chantry would back them.

Strictly speaking who has the strongest claim is a political decision. Neither Anora nor Alistair have any legal claim to the throne. The political issue is decided by the player at the Landsmeet. In my play Anora had the strongest claim and won the Crown, even if Alistair had the strongest claim in your story. It's all relative.

[uuuhcantthinkofaname]

Maybe she's a lesbian.



Giggidy.

[Xandurpein]

uuuhcantthinkofaname wrote...

Maybe she's a lesbian.

Giggidy.

Not impossible, but not very likely either. Unlike Medieval Europe, Fereldan seems rather open minded about homosexuality, so I'm sure that if Anora had been lesbian, it would have been at least hinted.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 25 avril 2010 - 11:28 .

[CalJones]

Maybe Erlina is more than a handmaiden.

[sylvanaerie]

CalJones wrote...

Maybe Erlina is more than a handmaiden.

She DOES seem quite fond of the queen.  Its possible I suppose but there is nothing in the game lore that suggests Anora swings that way.  I think she's just emotionally crippled myself.  She seems a very lonely person who either doesn't know how to connect with people (or doesn't want to) to me.  Cailan (and possibly Erlina) seem to be the only two people she is/was friends with.  Her father (while he loves her) seems to be very emotionally distant and in this she is much like him. 

[CalJones]

Yes, if you talk to him about her she says she didn't play with the local children in Gwaren but spent most of her time running around the woods on her own, hanging with her mother or shooting bows. She played with Cailan in Denerim but how often she was there I'm not sure. Probably not all that often.

[sylvanaerie]

CalJones wrote...

Yes, if you talk to him about her she says she didn't play with the local children in Gwaren but spent most of her time running around the woods on her own, hanging with her mother or shooting bows. She played with Cailan in Denerim but how often she was there I'm not sure. Probably not all that often.

While I dislike Anora, I always feel so sad for her at the coronation scene.  If you make her queen (solo or jointly) she is always standing off in the corner away from everyone.  I know its mostly the PC's companions down there but you would think the queen would be mingling more instead of doing the wallflower thing.  There are times when I feel so badly for her (and thats one of them).

I also hate killing Loghain in front of her.  I wish there were an option to take her from the room.  At that point she has nothing left, no Cailan no mother and now no father. Killing him in front of her just seems so wrong but its the only option I get so I usually have Alistair do it and I don't have to make the choice.  (Though I suppose technically I did when I chose Ali to duel him)