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[MajesticJazz]

Come to think of it, did ME2 have any true exploration elements to it?

As irritating as it was at times, ME1's Uncharted worlds did a great job of making the galaxy seem big and beyond our scopre with a sense of "There is still much to explore" going on. In ME2, the "uncharted worlds" were just linear combat mission levels with NO exploration to them. Even the Hammerhead missions were just linear maps.

Scanning the star systems for minerals wasnt very explorative because we didn't really EXPLORE anything.

Then there are the hub worlds which are very small and cramped compared to ME1. Example:

In Mass Effect 1's Noveria, it served as a hub and mission post. There was commerce as I can buy and SELL (What happened to being able to sell your unwanted items like ME1?). There was the little Analeas(sp?) investigation going on which could have been handled multiple ways. Then there was the actual Mission to peak 15 started off with nice vehicle combat, then eventually on foot.

In Mass Effect 1's Feros, we started off in the colony where there was commerce, side missions, then eventually the main mission which once again, had a great balance of foot/vehicle combat.

Feros/Ilos, again, nice balance between vehicle and foot combat. By the time you leave these planets, of course you didnt see the whole planet, but you left with the sense that you saw a lot.

ME2's Hub/Mission worlds are not the same. You can tell how Bioware really trimmed down the game to core combat mechanics to appeal to that Gears of War type player. When I left the Citadel, Omega, Illium, Tuchanka(sp?) I had this feeling of (That was it?)

It is sad when Taris of KOTOR1 and Nar Shadar of KOTOR2 felt more expansive than Illium in ME2. Even Dantooine and the Golden City place in Jade Empire had a nice feel of depth and exploration.

So I ask the question, what happened to exploration in ME2? Please, discuss....

[IrishSpectre257]

There was exploration in ME1?



Sure, the hub worlds feel more confined, but there is just as much to do in them as any place in ME1.

[Blk_Mage_Ctype]

While I HATED ME1's Inventory System and overjoyed to see the removal of that broken piece of garbage.



Some exploration with the Hammerhead would've been nice.

Hopefully they'll make some Expansion Packs in the future that use it.

[javierabegazo]

I agree with most of your assessments but I hate seeing this



"You can tell how Bioware really trimmed down the game to core combat mechanics to appeal to that Gears of War type player."



And keep in mind that all the games you've mentioned that were more 'expansive' were of a considerably less fidelity in terms of graphics and modeling

[MajesticJazz]

javierabegazo wrote...

I agree with most of your assessments but I hate seeing this

"You can tell how Bioware really trimmed down the game to core combat mechanics to appeal to that Gears of War type player."

And keep in mind that all the games you've mentioned that were more 'expansive' were of a considerably less fidelity in terms of graphics and modeling

Yeah, but why is it that the Citadel in ME1 seem more....wordly and expansive than say....Illium in ME2 which was more like a bunch of linear levels stanked on one another.

[YukiFA]

I agree with everything but the Gears of War type player comment, since I'm one of them and enjoyed both ME1 and GoW2.

I started a new playthrough of ME1 (femshep/infiltrator) a few days ago and found that I enjoy it just as much as the last time I played it, which was a few days before ME2 came out. The UNC missions; which are actually triggered with conversations/interactions at a hub or from transmissions rather than blindly (without a guide) scanning planets and wasting fuel looking through systems. The Mako driving sections; I don't get why people are complaining about "90 degree inclines", because only an idiot tries to drive straight towards an objective when there's a mountain between them and it.

So in short: ME1's still good, Bioware took out more than they should have.

[Shotokanguy]

Mass Effect's exploration elements weren't that great...maybe the ME series will never focus too much on exploration.

I'd like to go around alien planets in the Hammerhead in ME3, but I don't care if hub worlds aren't crazy huge. It's not like Feros was all that interesting after you finished there.

[kraidy1117]

[TJSolo]

Shotokanguy wrote...

Mass Effect's exploration elements weren't that great...maybe the ME series will never focus too much on exploration.

I'd like to go around alien planets in the Hammerhead in ME3, but I don't care if hub worlds aren't crazy huge. It's not like Feros was all that interesting after you finished there.

Never focusing on exploration in space...I have to say that would be a big loss of an opportunity.  Feros was big and offered a lot of hub specific things to do. That would be a positive.
Going to miniscule, one time missions within a small hub is not as expansive nor intriquing. Oh wow the fidelity of the small bits we see is such nice eye candy, the cosmetic does not substitute for substance in my case.

[haberman13]

ME2 is a stripped down "Gears-ified" version of ME1.



If you like GoW that is fine, if you like GoW and didn't like ME1 you helped ruined ME2!



I just can't like this game, everything about it seems worse than ME1, other than the quality of the cutscenes, graphics and combat.



ME1 had superior music, exploration, leveling, gear (this sucked in ME1 too though), story. These are the things that made me love Mass Effect, 2 removed them and subsequently I can't support or get into the game.



I agree with your synopsis OP, detractors are likely consoletards

[KotOREffecT]

[Shockwave81]

You know, the scanning minigame 'could' (IMO, of course) have been quite enjoyable if it was implemented differently.



Instead of scanning planets for resources, it could have been used to scan a) the galaxy to detect hidden mass relays, or star clusters in order to reveal unexplored systems.



There's no reason why this couldn't have been explained using existing story elements either.



Cerberus could have recovered technology from Sovereign that allowed the Reapers to locate inhabited worlds and/or mass relays (active and inactive), this could have been integrated into the Normandy SR2's systems - done.



Not only would this have provided a true sense of 'discovery', but it could also have had the potential for providing end game exploration had players been 'gifted' a couple of star charts as a reward for getting through the game (lots of chances to expand on the main story as well, the possibilities are limitless).



Instead, the majority of 'uncharted' systems/worlds are laid bare on the galactic map, and players can (unceremoniously) purchase new star charts from kiosks on certain main worlds in addition to having the coordinates drip fed to them as the game progresses. I really feel as though this robbed me of the 'vast unknown galaxy' feeling that I had in ME1.

[Darth Drago]

javierabegazo wrote...

I agree with most of your assessments but I hate seeing this

"You can tell how Bioware really trimmed down the game to core combat mechanics to appeal to that Gears of War type player."

And keep in mind that all the games you've mentioned that were more 'expansive' were of a considerably less fidelity in terms of graphics and modeling

-Graphics don’t and shouldn’t be used as an attempt to make a game better or to judge a games worth. There are a ton of old games that I still like to go back to now and then. Making a game with great graphics shouldn't also sacrifice other parts of that game to make it. ME2 is like an action film where mostl the budget went into the explosions, action scenes and getting a huge cast but nothing in the rest of the production.



-As for exploration, ME2 is a mixed bag here. We get more systems than ME1 had but the only real exploration we get is from planet scanning and the hopes we will find one of the few N7 missions to do. So in a sense we get more exploration but we don’t. There is also the immersion you got from taking the Mako to a planet with the various skies you saw.

All of ME2 “hubs” were so very compact with everything way to conveniently located to where I dock. Illium is the worst of these when you add in the cameo appearances with the quest givers for Thane, Samara and Miranda’s loyalty mission and Liara of course. A simple multi part city would have worked a lot better than have everything clustered in one little location about the size of a single story fairly small mini-mall.

-They really didn’t give you anyplace to explore either. For all practical purposes what we saw of Omega could have been the lower levels of the “slums” part of Illium. The Citadel took a huge hit with the removal of the Presidium. Tuchanka was way to small given the location you are supposed to be at.

-I’d be willing to bet, you could probably come close to cramming the non quest related locations of Omega, Illium, and the Citadel into KOTOR’s first city Taris. Omega fits in the Lower City, Illium the Upper City and the Citadel in the Sith Military Compound and Davik’s Estate.

[KotOREffecT]

Darth Drago wrote...

javierabegazo wrote...

I agree with most of your assessments but I hate seeing this

"You can tell how Bioware really trimmed down the game to core combat mechanics to appeal to that Gears of War type player."

And keep in mind that all the games you've mentioned that were more 'expansive' were of a considerably less fidelity in terms of graphics and modeling

-I’d be willing to bet, you could probably come close to cramming the non quest related locations of Omega, Illium, and the Citadel into KOTOR’s first city Taris. Omega fits in the Lower City, Illium the Upper City and the Citadel in the Sith Military Compound and Davik’s Estate.

Taris was the ****! Still better than the beginning stages in both ME's and Dragon Age IMO.

[HTTP 404]

th Golden city in Jade Empire was pretty big, but then again it was the only city in Jade Empire.

[Darth Drago]

KotOREffecT wrote...

Darth Drago wrote...

javierabegazo wrote...

I agree with most of your assessments but I hate seeing this

"You can tell how Bioware really trimmed down the game to core combat mechanics to appeal to that Gears of War type player."

And keep in mind that all the games you've mentioned that were more 'expansive' were of a considerably less fidelity in terms of graphics and modeling

-I’d be willing to bet, you could probably come close to cramming the non quest related locations of Omega, Illium, and the Citadel into KOTOR’s first city Taris. Omega fits in the Lower City, Illium the Upper City and the Citadel in the Sith Military Compound and Davik’s Estate.

Taris was the ****! Still better than the beginning stages in both ME's and Dragon Age IMO.

-It at least felt like a huge city, that’s for sure. A few residential areas instead of that one way to covenant apartment for Samara’s loyalty quest that is so out of place for example…

-Eden Prime was a good starting level. It gave you the basics you needed to learn on one level. Could it have been bigger? Oh hell yea nut it still worked.
-Dragon Age I can only vouch for the city female elf starting area and felt it wasn’t to bad. Could have been bigger true, but its just someplace to get the game going.

[KotOREffecT]

I remember spending days on Taris, there was just so much to do on it. And the level design, was genius in a realistic way. I mean you had the top rich part, the lower city part run by gangs and crime, and then the forgotten and outcasts of the underworld part. That aspect def made Taris feel very alive and diverse in such a big way that made you feel immersed. Plus just a lot of things to do and get, and very big areas, like the sewers for example.



Ah, nostalgia...

[RyuGuitarFreak]

Ah, yes the exploration through the vast emptiness of the uncharted worlds...We have dismissed that claim.



Seriously. The exploration is there. There is as much as stuff to do on Omega and Illium than on the main planets in ME1. Maybe you missed the recruitment/loyalty and optional quests on it. Maybe you missed stuff like...the food quest on Tuchanka?



No true exploration elements on ME2? If you limit the concept of exploration to walk hours and go to a point unnecessarily on a game or go through a vast amount of high resolution textures that's ok for you. It's not this way for me.

[TJSolo]

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...

Ah, yes the exploration through the vast emptiness of the uncharted worlds...We have dismissed that claim.

Seriously. The exploration is there. There is as much as stuff to do on Omega and Illium than on the main planets in ME1. Maybe you missed the recruitment/loyalty and optional quests on it. Maybe you missed stuff like...the food quest on Tuchanka?

No true exploration elements on ME2? If you limit the concept of exploration to walk hours and go to a point unnecessarily on a game or go through a vast amount of high resolution textures that's ok for you. It's not this way for me.

The exploration is not there. Sorry, but running around the minimall that is a ME2 hub world is not the exploration I for one am talking of. 
Yes, exploration would be optional from the central plot. The high fidelity 3min missions of ME2 lack exploration and is a blown chance to present "improved" exploration from ME1.

My concept of exploration is not limited to open world. DAO did a good job of implementing exploration in a non-open world. Then again I actually have a concept of exploration outside the realm of linear shooters.

[Sylvius the Mad]

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...

Ah, yes the exploration through the vast emptiness of the uncharted worlds...We have dismissed that claim.

Seriously. The exploration is there. There is as much as stuff to do on Omega and Illium than on the main planets in ME1. Maybe you missed the recruitment/loyalty and optional quests on it. Maybe you missed stuff like...the food quest on Tuchanka?

No true exploration elements on ME2? If you limit the concept of exploration to walk hours and go to a point unnecessarily on a game or go through a vast amount of high resolution textures that's ok for you. It's not this way for me.

Exploration is necessarily undirected.  You travel in a direction and for a reason chosen by you - that's exploration.

ME has it, both in the UNC and the freedom to travel to whatever planet you like.

[Sylvius the Mad]

TJSolo wrote...

Yes, exploration would be optional from the central plot.

You could make exploration manadatory, but people would hate that.  Imagine if a central plot point in ME2 required that you find someone on one of 12 planets and there was no indication of where he was so your only option was an exhaustive search - the complaints would pour out from the forum that there wasn't some sort of quest marker they could follow and just turn off their brains.

[Xpheyel]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

TJSolo wrote...

Yes, exploration would be optional from the central plot.

You could make exploration manadatory, but people would hate that.  Imagine if a central plot point in ME2 required that you find someone on one of 12 planets and there was no indication of where he was so your only option was an exhaustive search - the complaints would pour out from the forum that there wasn't some sort of quest marker they could follow and just turn off their brains.

You mean, like, if there were resources on different planets we needed for upgrades or something, and we had to enter orbit to find out if they were generally good to mine, and scan them with a little reticle to find deposits of metals and eezo by launching probes?

That would be highly engaging! 

[Hadark]

javierabegazo wrote...

I agree with most of your assessments but I hate seeing this

"You can tell how Bioware really trimmed down the game to core combat mechanics to appeal to that Gears of War type player."

And keep in mind that all the games you've mentioned that were more 'expansive' were of a considerably less fidelity in terms of graphics and modeling

I am sorry javierabegazo, as much as i love Bioware, there is this:
Quote:
    "Shooter combat must be fun without being propped
 up by RPG mechanics."--Christina Norman, on crafting
 the gunplay in Mass Effect 2.
Takeaway:
     The gameplay difference between the original
Mass Effect and its sequel is marked, and that wasn't
accidental. Norman's team specifically set out to craft
a sharper shooter experience that could stand up against
the gunplay found in competitors' offerings, while maintaining
BioWare's strong tradition of narrative-driven, RPG-heavy gameplay.

[TJSolo]

Xpheyel wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

TJSolo wrote...

Yes, exploration would be optional from the central plot.

You could make exploration manadatory, but people would hate that.  Imagine if a central plot point in ME2 required that you find someone on one of 12 planets and there was no indication of where he was so your only option was an exhaustive search - the complaints would pour out from the forum that there wasn't some sort of quest marker they could follow and just turn off their brains.

You mean, like, if there were resources on different planets we needed for upgrades or something, and we had to enter orbit to find out if they were generally good to mine, and scan them with a little reticle to find deposits of metals and eezo by launching probes?

That would be highly engaging! 

I didn't want to bring up the notion of planet scanning and exploring in the same sentence. The idea Casey Hudson is attached to the idea planet scanning is a minigame and exploration is unsettling. The execution of it is far from engaging.
The general idea of checking out a planet from orbit was done in ME1, faster and easier. Which leaves ME2 still lacking in terms of world exploration.

[Brako Shepard]

IrishSpectre257 wrote...

There was exploration in ME1?

Sure, the hub worlds feel more confined, but there is just as much to do in them as any place in ME1.

The same goes for Dragon Age.

BioWare haven't really touched on exploration since Mass Effect. But there stories and gameplay are getting stronger. It will be a great day when BioWare really start throwing RPG's out again.