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Forget Inventory, what happened to my exploration! Was there exploration in Mass Effect 2?


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#26
Darth Drago

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RyuGuitarFreak wrote...

Ah, yes the exploration through the vast emptiness of the uncharted worlds...We have dismissed that claim.

Seriously. The exploration is there. There is as much as stuff to do on Omega and Illium than on the main planets in ME1. Maybe you missed the recruitment/loyalty and optional quests on it. Maybe you missed stuff like...the food quest on Tuchanka?

No true exploration elements on ME2? If you limit the concept of exploration to walk hours and go to a point unnecessarily on a game or go through a vast amount of high resolution textures that's ok for you. It's not this way for me.

-Doing quests is not the same as exploration. When you do a quest (loyalty, recruiting and N7 ones) you are forced into that very linear mission area. There are very few side mission quests you can get by exploring a ”hub” world location as all of these locations are very linear in design as well.
ME1’s Citadel was massive and was great for exploring since you had many routes to use to get to your locations and for those who hated walking you had cabs.



Sylvius the Mad wrote...

TJSolo wrote...

Yes, exploration would be optional from the central plot.


You could make exploration manadatory, but people would hate that. Imagine if a central plot point in ME2 required that you find someone on one of 12 planets and there was no indication of where he was so your only option was an exhaustive search - the complaints would pour out from the forum that there wasn't some sort of quest marker they could follow and just turn off their brains.

-Actually that doesn’t sound to bad and it was used in some extent in ME1 when going after Liara. If I recall you just had the Artemis Tau Cluster to go on for your search location.

Modifié par Darth Drago, 24 avril 2010 - 12:28 .


#27
Pocketgb

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The only thing I actually found nice and immersive about exploring the uncharted worlds were the skyboxes since they were often times pretty and pleasing. But everything else about them was boring: there were no variations in the terrain and even after doing charting five worlds did it start to feel like a grind.



Would I want to see it comeback? Technically: I wouldn't mind choosing where you got to drop yourself off on a planet for those who just want to worry about seeing the quests, but then you have to make the areas actually look bearable for those who want to explore. Having a forced drop-point far away from the area would ensure everyone saw the prettiness, but then you'll be ticking off those who only concern themselves with completing the missions.



In regards to the Citadel vs. Illium thing we have going here, that's not how I saw it. I saw it as the Citadel vs. Illium + Omega + The Citadel (again). Didn't find one more "expansive" over the other, since I'll take one or the other - i.e. one big hub or a bunch of smaller hubs - as long as they're done well (which in both games, they are).

#28
TJSolo

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

TJSolo wrote...

Yes, exploration would be optional from the central plot.

You
could make exploration manadatory, but people would hate that.  Imagine
if a central plot point in ME2 required that you find someone on one of
12 planets and there was no indication of where he was so your only
option was an exhaustive search - the complaints would pour out from
the forum that there wasn't some sort of quest marker they could follow
and just turn off their brains.


Maybe I should have used a different word, extraneous or non-essential perhaps.
If we are using the scope of main story missions, the way you are explaining mandatory exploration is not much different than how games prior to this year handled some of the missions.
ME1, DAO, FO3, Arkham Asylum the list goes on. Getting general information then exploring to find the answer was an effective way to immerse and test the player.
I am unaware of why some gamers want exploring to be a handholding process that needs to be as fast as possible in order not to detract from the action.
I can only imaging the complaints if developers stopped catering to the lowest common denominator.

#29
RyuGuitarFreak

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Darth Drago wrote...


RyuGuitarFreak wrote...

Ah, yes the exploration through the vast emptiness of the uncharted worlds...We have dismissed that claim.

Seriously. The exploration is there. There is as much as stuff to do on Omega and Illium than on the main planets in ME1. Maybe you missed the recruitment/loyalty and optional quests on it. Maybe you missed stuff like...the food quest on Tuchanka?

No true exploration elements on ME2? If you limit the concept of exploration to walk hours and go to a point unnecessarily on a game or go through a vast amount of high resolution textures that's ok for you. It's not this way for me.

-Doing quests is not the same as exploration. When you do a quest (loyalty, recruiting and N7 ones) you are forced into that very linear mission area. There are very few side mission quests you can get by exploring a ”hub” world location as all of these locations are very linear in design as well.
ME1’s Citadel was massive and was great for exploring since you had many routes to use to get to your locations and for those who hated walking you had cabs.



Sylvius the Mad wrote...

TJSolo wrote...

Yes, exploration would be optional from the central plot.


You could make exploration manadatory, but people would hate that. Imagine if a central plot point in ME2 required that you find someone on one of 12 planets and there was no indication of where he was so your only option was an exhaustive search - the complaints would pour out from the forum that there wasn't some sort of quest marker they could follow and just turn off their brains.

-Actually that doesn’t sound to bad and it was used in some extent in ME1 when going after Liara. If I recall you just had the Artemis Tau Cluster to go on for your search location.

My point was, to get the quests, you have to do explore in first place.
Yes, the Citadel was massive, although they could make it less boring to walk to, as even with rapid transit you still walk a lot with the awkward Shep walk speed, and the elevators. Zakera wards are much more well designed, they put lots of cool visual stuff in your way (it feels more crowded, they way the wards should be) and you have the places you need to walk to almost in your face. I wish they redo the Presidium and the other areas in ME3. IMO, they got it alright with Illium and Omega.

#30
Brako Shepard

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Yeah you don't need huge planets to call it exploring. With places like Citadel, Omega and Ilium, it is clear that those areas were much smaller than the planets in Mass Effect, and even these places don't have much to explore.



Its about putting content into the enviroment that is worthy ofexploring, not the size of the map. I belive Mass Effect could have actually have done with some collectables to look for and discover, aswell as some groovy easter eggs.

#31
Morey89

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I'm sure it's been said before but...



To me the only disapointement in ME2 was how every are seemed rather "small", take the citadel in ME1 for example, sure it could be a pain sometimes to walk but when i got to it in ME2 and saw that i could only access a laughable part of it, it kinda underwhelmed me. Call me nit picky but i find details allways help an immersive experience, the citadel came to mind simply because it stands off as beeing the most evident "shortening" of what was a fun place to loose yourself in and explore in ME1 - in my opinion -.

#32
finnithe

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ME2 sort of took away wide-open spaces in favour of density. The Citadel's Presidium probably had the same amount of chances to interact with people as did Zakera Ward, and I found the Presidium, despite being the hub of the entire galaxy, to be very empty. Exploring other parts of the Wards in Thane's loyalty mission was pretty fun, but you're right in that it would have been cool to have been able to access those parts outside of that particular quest.



Maybe the fact that the game spanned two discs influenced some decisions. I think its pretty costly to have to sell a game on multiple discs, given that millions of copies have to be shipped for a game like Mass Effect.

#33
Darth Drago

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Morey89 wrote...

I'm sure it's been said before but...

To me the only disapointement in ME2 was how every are seemed rather "small", take the citadel in ME1 for example, sure it could be a pain sometimes to walk but when i got to it in ME2 and saw that i could only access a laughable part of it, it kinda underwhelmed me. Call me nit picky but i find details allways help an immersive experience, the citadel came to mind simply because it stands off as beeing the most evident "shortening" of what was a fun place to loose yourself in and explore in ME1 - in my opinion -.

-Lets not forget the Citadel is huge.

In Total Length: 44.7 km (27.78 miles)
Presidium Ring Diameter: 7.2 km (4.47 miles)
Ward Arm Length: 43.6 km (27.09 miles)
Height of the Presidium Tower: 1047 m ( .65 miles or 3,435.04 feet)

-Got to love that last one about the height of the tower. The Empire State Building is 1,453 ft (443.09 m) tall. I wonder now, just how long it should take an elevator to get to the top?

"Oh no, I cant stand to walk to far on this station!" Well duh, its supposed to be huge. This is whats missing in ME2 with this station, the scope of how massive this place is. A place like this at least deserves to be explored a lot more than the 4 floors of a single building we get to see in ME2. All the so called hub locations are way to compact. 

Now we're so lazy we cant even walk to the airlock to leave the ship...  

Modifié par Darth Drago, 24 avril 2010 - 03:36 .


#34
Dick Delaware

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Exploration was awful in ME1. If you don't give the player interesting places to explore to, then you're just giving him a tedious commute in between interesting things. That was precisely the problem in ME1. The driving sections were just a commute on the way to the good stuff - that is terrible design.



Not that I'm advocating planet scanning, as that was terrible design as well. However, it was bad design for the same reason driving and exploration in ME1 were: they rewarded the player with exciting parts for enduring tedium.

#35
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Come to think of it, I thought the so called "exploration" you say in Mass Effect to be rather boring. And the Uncharted Planets were utter ****.



You guys are asking so much from a Western Role Playing Game.

#36
AngryFrozenWater

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javierabegazo wrote...

I agree with most of your assessments but I hate seeing this

"You can tell how Bioware really trimmed down the game to core combat mechanics to appeal to that Gears of War type player."

I don't see the problem. I feel the same way as the OP. Even one of the doctors thinks that merging RPGs and shooters is the way to go. And if one sees the effect of that and doesn't like it then we should be able to express that. Not only does Mr Muzyka think that Gears of Wear is an RPG, he thinks it's a great RPG.

Shooters like Gears of War could be considered great role-playing games, says the co-founder of RPG developer BioWare.

Hmm, where have I heard that before? Oh, right: Not two days ago, Epic’s Cliff Bleszinski said that “the future of shooters is RPGs.” Speaking to Wired.com before the publication of that interview, BioWare’s Ray Muzyka articulated similar sentiments, pointing out that many other game genres have lifted the “key pillars” of role-playing games.

Source: BioWare’s Muzyka: Line Between RPGs, Shooters Blurring.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 24 avril 2010 - 08:21 .


#37
sammcl

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I dunno how anyone can call the uncharted worlds in ME1 exploration. With the exception of one planet, the one with the prothean device to use the consort's gift, the planets were all empty. You had 3 mineral deposits, maybe 1-2 salvage, and a mission objective. It's not like you were exploring long lost prothean ruins and discovering information about their past. If you do exploration, it has to have a purpose, driving around bland, empty planets for salvage and minerals is not fun, and is not exploration.

The citadel however....you may have a point with. I was disappointed that we were confined to one ward in ME2. The ward had as much, or more to see than the original citadel in ME1 but it would have been nice to be able to see the damage from the attack and see how the population is coping with it. The hub worlds of Illium, Omega and Tuchanka versus Feros and Noveria, that felt fine to me. All 5 had character and served their purpose well.

Honestly, I don't really care about exploration, unless it is central to the gameplay, think Metroid and Zelda. If there's going to be more exploration in ME3, I hope it's done right. It would have to have a story element, it would ideally be on foot and it would not be "big area = exploring guh huh!"

As I see it, Mass Effect isn't about exploration, Metroid and Zelda are about exploration, you uncover the story through exploration of the world. Mass Effect is about character interaction, the whole of ME2 was basically a collection of character stories bundled together by recruitment for a mission. I don't think ME3 will have exploration on the scale some people are hoping, the series just doesn't strike me as one that is concerned with it, and I'm more than ok with that.

#38
Brako Shepard

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I also think that the Prothean device would have made foran excellent added bonus cut scene.



From Mass Effect to Dragon Age. It is clear BioWare know how to make beautiful landscapes, they just don't add anything in there to explore.



Bethesda are the true kings of exploring, but thats because they have there games based on one giant map. The BioWare games are very path driven compared to games like Oblivion and Fallout 3. This isn't a bad thing, its just how BioWare do things. But it is also a reason I wouldn't call any of there games RPG's, there more action adventure in comparison.



If RPG means you get to create your own character and go off looking for hidden stuff. Then Saints Row 2 would have to be considered as an RPG instead of a sandbox.

#39
ThisIsMadness91

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KotOREffecT wrote...

Image IPB


Damn, that almost looks good enough to be official!

#40
KitsuneRommel

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AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Shooters like Gears of War could be considered great role-playing games, says the co-founder of RPG developer BioWare.

Hmm, where have I heard that before? Oh, right: Not two days ago, Epic’s Cliff Bleszinski said that “the future of shooters is RPGs.” Speaking to Wired.com before the publication of that interview, BioWare’s Ray Muzyka articulated similar sentiments, pointing out that many other game genres have lifted the “key pillars” of role-playing games.

Source: BioWare’s Muzyka: Line Between RPGs, Shooters Blurring.


Well, take Borderlands for example. It's basically a co-op shooter with inventory management, chacter leveling, skill trees and quests. So it's an RPG. I don't think we'll be seeing old-school RPGs like the Phantasie or Ultima series any time soon.

#41
FluxDeluxe

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They just need to go back to designing hub worlds like KOTOR and sticking games out on 3 or 4 disks. It's the only way to deliver an rpg hybrid with some depth and do it any justice.

#42
FlyingWalrus

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No one here knows **** about exploration in games unless they've played a game that both didn't require you to do it and made it worth your time when you did. In most games that offer "exploration," it's actually a thinly-veiled chore which has you trekking unnecessarily long distances to reach objective A, after which that area serves no purpose and is, therefore, not worth giving a second look.

In ME1, exploration was always dictated by a side mission. If not that, all you had to do was claim resources, find artifacts, and harvest merchant trash from sources that made you go, "What the **** are bleeding-edge weapon mods compatible with modern technology doing on a two thousand year old Turian probe?" Maybe the people who scream like children about the heatsink system in ME2 breaking with lore should think about some of the inconsistencies in the FIRST game, of all places.

AND if not that, you were just there to gaze out at the craggy vistas. There is nothing wrong with that, of course, but many of the whiners in this thread have decried high-fidelity graphics as a "poor way to improve a game."

Son, I am disappoint. God gave you a brain, and if you don't believe in God, then just try and use the cognitive force in that tissue that bacteria wrought for you in the womb.

It's 2010. 1080p is just about standard. To be perfectly blunt, I don't think you'd buy Perfect Dark from the Xbox Live Marketplace for its full original price of $70 if it originally came out today looking the same way it did back in 2001, you hypocrites. Like it or not, graphics are an important part of games. Even now people complain about how Shepard animates, how he/she doesn't sit flushly with surfaces, etc.

Graphics are important because they play as much a part of the immersion in the world as dialogue. I never feel like I am a part of Just Cause 2's story because its RIDICULOUS dialogue and voice acting is too idiotic to be taken seriously.

You can't even say that the gameplay suffered because that actually improved. Story, characters, music, all that is far more subjective.

ME1 is as linear as ME2. It just gives you more mission objectives for Noveria and Feros to accomplish that aren't even necessary unless you're going for achievements or credits that soon devalue beyond belief. Sure, you could choose to do Noveria or Feros or Therum in whatever order you want, but you get the same order choice with the allies in ME2.

It's easy enough to make sense of Illium and why there were so many important aspects in that one area right there. It's a port. Ports tend to be very busy, and they often also hold offices to international (or in this case, intergalactic) movers and shakers, the sort of which Liara became. You can't even say that the transition to Thane's recruitment mission wasn't handled well because the Dantius towers were pretty damn far from your landing point. (Plus, that is probably one of my favorite scenes in the game, the ride to the towers.)

The one thing I will agree on, though, is that the Citadel in ME2 was bull****. I liked the wards alright, I thought they were even better and livelier than in ME1, but the lack of Presidium access with the exception of the failure that was the embassy balcony was utter disappointment.

Lastly, I don't see what this bull**** about how ME2's gameplay design team focused on making a good shooter aspect that could stand on its own without being dependent on stat-heavy RPG-side elements being a bad thing is about. Is there some logical explanation for this line of thought? Mass Effect was planned from the beginning to have a lot of shooting in it, being that you're playing a goddamn Space Marine in the middle of a violent survival struggle and all. You'd think it would come across to people as basic sense that BioWare would WANT to have a good shooter engine in place for its gameplay, but that notion seems to be buried under the composting layers of biased, "ruined forever!" CRAP in these buzzword-flingers' brains. God forbid they try to take something away from some of the genre-makers in the industry in an effort to improve their own product.

Modifié par FlyingWalrus, 24 avril 2010 - 01:42 .


#43
Ecael

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Pocketgb wrote...

The only thing I actually found nice and immersive about exploring the uncharted worlds were the skyboxes since they were often times pretty and pleasing. But everything else about them was boring: there were no variations in the terrain and even after doing charting five worlds did it start to feel like a grind.

This is essentially what I was going to say.

Mass Effect 1 had as much "exploration" as a one hour commute to work. It was still extremely linear considering most of the hub worlds and planets consisted of empty space.

#44
Kirabi

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What did you find when you explored? I have played elder scrolls and Fallout games that reward for going off the set path.If Me1 was like that i would agree with TS but what people are real saying is "i miss exploring empty planets".



Which as bad the people who miss thousands of useless items when reality is they are only 6 or 7 useful items.ME1 hid behind illusion of exploration or items,ME2 does not hid behind the illusion.



It is like Bioware gave you briefcase with a million bucks but only top bills are real,the rest is monopoly money.I have no problem with people wanting exploration in Mass Effect, i want it too but i want the real thing.I want to step on planet run into different alien animals and plants,I want to find a hidden blue sun base,I want to run into space pirates on the planet,I want to find alien artifact that leads me to do a mission,etc..I don't want illusion of exploration i want the real thing.

#45
sammcl

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Kirabi wrote...

What did you find when you explored? I have played elder scrolls and Fallout games that reward for going off the set path.If Me1 was like that i would agree with TS but what people are real saying is "i miss exploring empty planets".

Which as bad the people who miss thousands of useless items when reality is they are only 6 or 7 useful items.ME1 hid behind illusion of exploration or items,ME2 does not hid behind the illusion.

It is like Bioware gave you briefcase with a million bucks but only top bills are real,the rest is monopoly money.I have no problem with people wanting exploration in Mass Effect, i want it too but i want the real thing.I want to step on planet run into different alien animals and plants,I want to find a hidden blue sun base,I want to run into space pirates on the planet,I want to find alien artifact that leads me to do a mission,etc..I don't want illusion of exploration i want the real thing.

And then battle Ridley for the millionth time as he flys around shooting lasers out of his mouth. You'll also find out the space pirates are mining for some strange substance known as Element Zero that boosts your power briefly but will kill you if you use it for too long. Dark Shepard will emerge from the shadows as the mastermind behind the reapers, you will fight and defeat him only to find out he's survived and will return in the sequel! His plan: to harness the power of Element Zero to destroy stars in each solar system thereby removing all hospitible planets and forever breaking the cycle of organic life.

I was joking but despite the metroid references that sounds kinda feasible :P

#46
Samurai_Wahoo

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IMO, neither ME or ME2 had exploration. Driving around in a Mako in desert, winter, and etc is not really exploration and neither is scanning a few items here and there in those conditions. The exploration in ME is just busy work that served no purpose other than kill, gather junk loot, and get xp.

#47
TJSolo

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Kirabi wrote...

What did you find when you explored? I have played elder scrolls and Fallout games that reward for going off the set path.If Me1 was like that i would agree with TS but what people are real saying is "i miss exploring empty planets".

Which as bad the people who miss thousands of useless items when reality is they are only 6 or 7 useful items.ME1 hid behind illusion of exploration or items,ME2 does not hid behind the illusion.
 


What did I find when I explored? It wasn't much in the way of super items but most along the lines of stories that immersed me in the galaxy more. As well as some pretty odd sights such as the shifty looking cow.

The time spent making the stories behind the side quests in ME1 appealing is very apparent to me as the same time the time spent making the ME2 missions look shiny. It just so happens I appreciate a good story more then a pretty face.

#48
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Exploration in ME1 was poorly done. In ME2 it was nonexistent. I agree that ME1 'felt' bigger due to the planet roving. Problem is, there was nothing on those planets, and it got boring quick. I would think they could compromise here, but I doubt it will happen. Expect more corridors for ME3

#49
AngryFrozenWater

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KitsuneRommel wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Shooters like Gears of War could be considered great role-playing games, says the co-founder of RPG developer BioWare.

Hmm, where have I heard that before? Oh, right: Not two days ago, Epic’s Cliff Bleszinski said that “the future of shooters is RPGs.” Speaking to Wired.com before the publication of that interview, BioWare’s Ray Muzyka articulated similar sentiments, pointing out that many other game genres have lifted the “key pillars” of role-playing games.

Source: BioWare’s Muzyka: Line Between RPGs, Shooters Blurring.

Well, take Borderlands for example. It's basically a co-op shooter with inventory management, chacter leveling, skill trees and quests. So it's an RPG. I don't think we'll be seeing old-school RPGs like the Phantasie or Ultima series any time soon.

That's not the point. The point was that Javier got annoyed by the comparisson with GoW. Fact is that Mr Muzyka wants the series to move in that direction and explicitly mentions GoW. When the OP sees that turned into reality then he has the right to object if he doesn't agree with that move.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 24 avril 2010 - 03:12 .


#50
Kirabi

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TJSolo wrote...

What did I find when I explored? It wasn't much in the way of super items but most along the lines of stories that immersed me in the galaxy more. As well as some pretty odd sights such as the shifty looking cow.

The time spent making the stories behind the side quests in ME1 appealing is very apparent to me as the same time the time spent making the ME2 missions look shiny. It just so happens I appreciate a good story more then a pretty face.


How does driving on a blank planet immerse you more in the game?There is reason why ME uni has never gone to earth,The second they make earth a option people will realize how much of nothing there is to explore in ME games.Do know you much animals are in the ME game

Space Cows
Space Bettles
Thesher Maws
Gas Bags
Pyjaks
Pod crabs
Varren
Havesters
Klixen

and depending your opinion Rachni.They are about 19 clusters in ME2 each carrying any where from 3 planets to around 20 planets.I don't feel like counting but i guess ME2 has around 100-150 planets or more.You mean to tell me that they are only 8 animals.The illusion may have work on some of you guys but not me.I can send you to Antarctica,the Moon or Sahara to explore but they are all empty wastlelands.Exploring nothing is not fun and the illusion of Mass effect only work on people who are silly to believe that galaxy is empty and every planet is wastleland.

Very few animals
Almost no Alien structures that are non mission related

Please tell me what are you finding?In all the planets you have explored in ME1 and ME2 have you ever come across another alien just out in world when you are in the mako?

I will repeat myself i love real exploring neither of the Mass Effect has real exploring.Illusion of exploring is not exploring,Just go and play Oblivion then tell me if Mass effect exploring.ME is linear game that is shepard story that has to inculde enough of galaxy to make feel in you are in world,ME1 did a better job of making people feel they are in world but it was just an illusion.The only real exploring happen in the citadel in ME1.