261 réponses à ce sujet

[makavelli1789]

But you have proven yourself as a leader that is a brilliant tactician. You can do what Caillan tried to do, be king and kick darkspawn ass. You would just appoint eamon as your chancellor to deal with the day to day stuff while you finish off the blight. Then when you come back you deal with all the domestic issues using all your training from growing up under Bryce. It can be well assumed that you were well trained and educated in the art of governing as the potential future teyrn of highever. Most nobles are trained from early on to take over when they eventually rule. It could certainly work and you would be well loved after saving the country and showing yourself to be a competent ruller.

[Sarah1281]

Anora has also been trained for this. Why should you be Queen/King instead of her? If you both are equally qualified then she has a stronger claim as sitting Queen. And when exactly have you proven yourself a brilliant tacticion? Or proven yourself to the nobles at all? They MIGHT know you cashed in the treaties and have allies. No details. They do know you slaughtered your way through Howe's estate and visited the Alienage (if you bring it up at the Landsmeet) and Howe was careless enough to get caught. Why should this make you the monarch?

[rak72]

Lust for power- Just because I can be king queen via Al or Anora, dosn't mean I am not entitled to explore my other options, especialy since I think I have a better claim than Annora



Highever - How do we know how far thse rumors about my greatness traveled



Redcliff - If you have Al executed, Eamon says "guess you know best" - he shouldn't be too hard to convince



Treaties - If I weren't around to get the treaties, Fereldan would be consumed with Darkspawn - thanks to Annora & Log



Sgt Kylon - Its good to have the respect of your guards



Taking out all of my enemies - gets the noble scared, and respect from the military - no one will try a coup



And what makes me qualified to rule? the same thing as anyone else - Charisma and Advisors. Plus, I'm sure I had some kind of education when I was in Highever

[makavelli1789]

She is only the consort. After you disgrace her father at the landsmeet as the traitior he has become then your claim becomes stronger because she has mac tir blood which is only a second generation noble line. You have cousland blood which is older than Fereldan, and is the second most powerful line after the theirins. Since Alistari willingly would give up his claim your line becomes the strongest royal blood in the country. Therefore it makes sense that the couslands would step up and become the new royal line, if the theirin line is dead. If the country wants to continue with a heriditary monarchy like it has then that would make sense for them to put a new royal line up for the throne, and the couslands would make more sense then the mac tirs after you disgrace and execute loghain in front of everyone. Also another thing that you could have done to prove yourself is another duel after you fight loghain. You could have challenged anora and you have a duel for the throne (obviously she would need a champion) becuase they state that is traditionally how they were setteled before. A lot of people don't like this buta ot of the time might makes right and your noble has plenty of might to back up their claim

[Sarah1281]

rak72 wrote...

Lust for power- Just because I can be king queen via Al or Anora, dosn't mean I am not entitled to explore my other options, especialy since I think I have a better claim than Annora

How do you have a better claim than Anora? You both had equal claim in the event of Maric and Cailan both dying prior to her marriage and now she's got five years of ruling under her belt. Just because the more conservative elements are unhappy her grandparents were commoners does not give you a better claim and it's not as all-important as Eamon insists, either. Go to the Taven after you first get to Denerim and before you go to Howe's estate and all the nobles don't understand why they should have a perfectly competent ruler like Anora step down when they have a Blight to deal with.

Highever - How do we know how far thse rumors about my greatness traveled

Not far. Nobles vaguely recongize you as 'Bryce's youngest' but you don't get out much or get involved in court. How could they possibly know you?

Redcliff - If you have Al executed, Eamon says "guess you know best" - he shouldn't be too hard to convince

He does this because ANORA on the throne as one of two viable options ends the war. Alistair is executed so he can't start a rebellion or just have one start up in his name. Alistair can't be allowed to start a coup and I really can't believe that when the darkspawn have taken the entire Southern half of the country over and the nobles are barely listening to the charges against Loghain because the Blight is such an imminent threat that you really feel it's the best time to stage a coup. These things take time and you do not have time. You do not have an army. You'll just get yourself arrested and killed...or maybe if game mechanics translates to how things really work, you'll slaughter your way out of the Landsmeet and realize that everyone's doomed as all the lords were killed by you so no one's going to listen and the Ferelden leadership is dead. The ensuring power struggles will last until the darkspawn eat you all.

Treaties - If I weren't around to get the treaties, Fereldan would be consumed with Darkspawn - thanks to Anora & Log

Okay, you went to Orzammar, a forest, and the Tower and said 'my treaty says you have to help me' and they said 'sure.' How does that qualify you to rule? Yes its more complicated than that because everyone has their own problems but that's hardly what the nobles are going to be expecting, is it? 

Sgt Kylon - Its good to have the respect of your guards

 Yes but that won't really help you become a solo ruler.

Taking out all of my enemies - gets the noble scared, and respect from the military - no one will try a coup

Except...you. And this won't be settled in time. And what makes you think you're at all qualified or have a right to do this? Honestly, this sounds like Howe's idea of a sound plan.

And to quote Teagan: The bannorn will not bow to you just because you demand it.

And what makes me qualified to rule? the same thing as anyone else - Charisma and Advisors. Plus, I'm sure I had some kind of education when I was in Highever

So...everyone likes Alistair and he has advisors. Anora also has advisors and experience although her peope skills could use some work. The two candidates are already qualified. Why should they throw over these two for someone who's not even up for consideration? You may be AS qualified as either of them to rule but they havea stronger claim and I don't see how you'd be MORE qualified.

[makavelli1789]

He does this because ANORA on the throne as one of two viable options ends the war. Alistair is executed so he can't start a rebellion or just have one start up in his name. Alistair can't be allowed to start a coup and I really can't believe that when the darkspawn have taken the entire Southern half of the country over and the nobles are barely listening to the charges against Loghain because the Blight is such an imminent threat that you really feel it's the best time to stage a coup. These things take time and you do not have time. You do not have an army. You'll just get yourself arrested and killed...or maybe if game mechanics translates to how things really work, you'll slaughter your way out of the Landsmeet and realize that everyone's doomed as all the lords were killed by you so no one's going to listen and the Ferelden leadership is dead. The ensuring power struggles will last until the darkspawn eat you all.



Even if you did have to fight im pretty sure once you slaughtered all their guards that the majority of the nobles would surrender to you. You and your companions are a small army all by yourselves. After that happened they would have no choice but to just follow you to save their own lives and to end the blight. After the blight was ended people would realize that you were the right man/woman for the job and you would be the only real legit claim anyways at that point, especially if alistair got fed to the arch demon, and anora was locked up/executed. You also would have fergus supporting you as teyrn of highever and whoever you wanted to appoint as teyrn of gwaren, you could of given it to alistair even if he wasn't fed to the demon.

[rak72]

As my PC sees it, Annora & Loghain sent Fereldan down the sewer in the last year, and thus I feel I have more right to the throne. The only way I think it would be right to jump Alistair would be if he didn't want it, or he was dead. It is my job to make the landsmeet see it my way - from my point of view, I think alot of them would - I think they would be quite pleased with a Cousland. Another way to get Redcliff on board - tell Eamon I'll marry Teagan

Modifié par rak72, 24 avril 2010 - 07:14 .

[Pandaman102]

Isn't this just an issue of politics vs. tradition? On one hand you have nobles who support Anora because they've grown comfortable with her rulership, on the other you have nobles who are willing to put a bastard on the throne simply because he's of Therin blood.

Note that none of the nobles are clamoring for the Cousland to take Alistair's and Anora's place - they've thrown their lot behind the two candidates and if the Warden tries to jump in without any political support for the bid it will either be a dismal failure (ruining the Cousland name, much like how Howe ruined his family name) or the Warden will become Regent of a court of snakes.

And then the darkspawn will seem refreshingly straightforward and friendly by comparison.

Modifié par Pandaman102, 24 avril 2010 - 07:14 .

[rak72]

Well, they weren't clammoring for the Cousland because it wasn't offered - but if I had a chance to do some campaigning, they might see things differently

[eucatastrophe]

I think one of the reasons people don't latch on to your Cousland heritage is because the Couslands have been established as wiped out.

[Pigbin]

rak72 wrote...

Why can't I appoint my Cousland to rule alone.  I have a more legiamate claim to the throne than Annora - she dosn't even have noble blood.  Bryce was so well loved, I think everyone would be more than pleased to see his youngest ruling.

Based on the original argument you'll, at best, be second in line to the throne behind your brother Fergus who is the senior Cousland, has proven ability to father an heir and doesn't come with all the negative baggage of being a Grey Warden.  If you are aiming to appoint yourself and rule alone then you are basically trying to pull as much of a coup as Logain did and you don't have the power base to back it up or the time to get the nobles to come round to your way of thinking.  And those armies you put together using the treaty are here to stop the blight not put some aggrieved noble on a throne that they can't hold.

[rak72]

Yea, I think Fergus has a better claim than I do, but at the landsmeet, we all think he is dead. I'm not saying to go against the landsmeet and just appoint myself no matter what. I think they should vote on it, and I think I can present strong arguments. I think a Cousland/Teagan heir would be another good argument (especialy after I remind them that Annora is aproaching her 30th year)

Modifié par rak72, 24 avril 2010 - 07:24 .

[jsachun]

It's probably your hairstyle.

[Pandaman102]

rak72 wrote...
Well, they weren't clammoring for the Cousland because it wasn't offered - but if I had a chance to do some campaigning, they might see things differently

Perhaps, but you would have needed to campaign before the Landsmeet and the only real opportunity would have been when a number of them were in the Gnawed Noble tavern - but at that point you were still "Bryce's kid, the youngest, right?" and noble in name only (what with Howe flags over your family estate). None of the nobles really learn how much you've done until after the Landsmeet, so any campaigning would have appeared to be political ambition exploiting your dead father's accomplishments and popularity.

[Raiil]

Once again, you have done nothing to show that you will be a competent ruler. Gathering allies =/= ability to rule a kingdom. You've shown great military skill in that you haven't died. You've proven that you can kick darkspawn arse from here to the Waking Sea. Congrats, you are in first place for running the army whilst the Blight is up and kicking, and that's about it.





The Cousland has absolutely nothing to show that they have any skill at managing a group larger than your camp party. Every political machination you have gotten yourself involved with- namely the Landsmeet and the situation in Orzammar- has been due to need, and not because you've shown any sparkling insight into the political situation. You are, at best, a weak third party candidate who is better served in augmenting the rule of one of the two viable candidates. Your word is only taken so far as to decide who must rule, and that is only because of the Blight. The Cousland is not a special, glittering butterfly that radiates political skill and intelligence. They're just a noble without lands or much to back them up- if you recall, those who throw their lot in with you is throwing it in with the Wardens, not with you in particular. They throw it in for my fem!Amell, who is a mage and probably the most established troll this side of Weisshaupt. It's the Warden name, and not the Cousland name, that allows you to do this.

[rak72]

Pandaman102 wrote...

rak72 wrote...
Well, they weren't clammoring for the Cousland because it wasn't offered - but if I had a chance to do some campaigning, they might see things differently

Perhaps, but you would have needed to campaign before the Landsmeet and the only real opportunity would have been when a number of them were in the Gnawed Noble tavern - but at that point you were still "Bryce's kid, the youngest, right?" and noble in name only (what with Howe flags over your family estate). None of the nobles really learn how much you've done until after the Landsmeet, so any campaigning would have appeared to be political ambition exploiting your dead father's accomplishments and popularity.

It would have definatly taken more planning

[rak72]

Valentia X wrote...

Once again, you have done nothing to show that you will be a competent ruler. Gathering allies =/= ability to rule a kingdom. You've shown great military skill in that you haven't died. You've proven that you can kick darkspawn arse from here to the Waking Sea. Congrats, you are in first place for running the army whilst the Blight is up and kicking, and that's about it.


The Cousland has absolutely nothing to show that they have any skill at managing a group larger than your camp party. Every political machination you have gotten yourself involved with- namely the Landsmeet and the situation in Orzammar- has been due to need, and not because you've shown any sparkling insight into the political situation. You are, at best, a weak third party candidate who is better served in augmenting the rule of one of the two viable candidates. Your word is only taken so far as to decide who must rule, and that is only because of the Blight. The Cousland is not a special, glittering butterfly that radiates political skill and intelligence. They're just a noble without lands or much to back them up- if you recall, those who throw their lot in with you is throwing it in with the Wardens, not with you in particular. They throw it in for my fem!Amell, who is a mage and probably the most established troll this side of Weisshaupt. It's the Warden name, and not the Cousland name, that allows you to do this.

As I see it, Annora shows that she would be an abysmal ruler.  If Alistair, for whatever reason, can't/won't take the job, I think I would make a much better alternnative to Annora.  It's up to the landsmeet to decide if I'm right.

[Raiil]

rak72 wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

Once again, you have done nothing to show that you will be a competent ruler. Gathering allies =/= ability to rule a kingdom. You've shown great military skill in that you haven't died. You've proven that you can kick darkspawn arse from here to the Waking Sea. Congrats, you are in first place for running the army whilst the Blight is up and kicking, and that's about it.


The Cousland has absolutely nothing to show that they have any skill at managing a group larger than your camp party. Every political machination you have gotten yourself involved with- namely the Landsmeet and the situation in Orzammar- has been due to need, and not because you've shown any sparkling insight into the political situation. You are, at best, a weak third party candidate who is better served in augmenting the rule of one of the two viable candidates. Your word is only taken so far as to decide who must rule, and that is only because of the Blight. The Cousland is not a special, glittering butterfly that radiates political skill and intelligence. They're just a noble without lands or much to back them up- if you recall, those who throw their lot in with you is throwing it in with the Wardens, not with you in particular. They throw it in for my fem!Amell, who is a mage and probably the most established troll this side of Weisshaupt. It's the Warden name, and not the Cousland name, that allows you to do this.

As I see it, Annora shows that she would be an abysmal ruler.  If Alistair, for whatever reason, can't/won't take the job, I think I would make a much better alternnative to Annora.  It's up to the landsmeet to decide if I'm right.

Before her father ripped the power from her hands, Anora was quite a popular and efficent ruler. Everyone talks about how she ruled Ferelden in Cailan's name and Ferelden is quite prosperous, considering they're still technically in the recovery period from being being conquered by Orlais. She's intelligent, shrewd, and unlike the Cousland, was raised to rule. Everything that the Cousland can offer, Anora can do better, except for leading men into battle against the darkspawn. Anora is not her father and has proven for some time that she is an excellent ruler, and displayed those abilities. The Cousland has not. They are not a viable candidate for the throne.

[Pandaman102]

rak72 wrote...

Pandaman102 wrote...
Perhaps, but you would have needed to campaign before the Landsmeet and the only real opportunity would have been when a number of them were in the Gnawed Noble tavern - but at that point you were still "Bryce's kid, the youngest, right?" and noble in name only (what with Howe flags over your family estate). None of the nobles really learn how much you've done until after the Landsmeet, so any campaigning would have appeared to be political ambition exploiting your dead father's accomplishments and popularity.

It would have definatly taken more planning

Significantly more planning than you believe, I think. We know that Howe and Loghain's plot to take the throne included assassinating anyone with enough clout to challenge the bid; Bryce Cousland's dead and Eamon Guerrin would rather bow to Loghain if he can't put Alistair on the throne, so the only way for the Cousland Warden to make a bid is by finding, saving, and convincing a noble of equal influence to call for a Landsmeet and support him/her for the bid.

And given that Eamon was saved only by the sheer luck of Connor summoning a desire demon to preserve Eamon's life long enough for the Warden to get the Sacred Ashes, I don't think there are many alternatives left. Really not much to do, especially when there's already a big, juicy slice of "Stop the Blight" steak sitting on the Warden's plate the entire time.

Modifié par Pandaman102, 24 avril 2010 - 08:09 .

[Xandurpein]

The situation with Alistiar is basically this. He is a bastard not recognized by the King and as such he has no legal rights. Legally he is simply the son of a castle servant and not even a nobleman, so technically he has no claim at anything at all. However a Landsmeet can decide to pass a ruling making him a recognized bastard son. That would be a political decision, but that it also make him the sole legal heir to the throne.

There are a lot of people who simply do not like Anora that try to go to great length to prove that Anora is not a good administrator, even if the codex says so. Rather than bog down the discussion in an endless debate about what constitutes a good administration, it's enogh to say that the Codex entries represent how she is percieved in Fereldan. The people of Fereldan belives that it was Anora who really led the country during Cailan's reign, and they believe she did a great job. And that is all that matters in this discussion.

After Cailan's death Loghain tries to makes Regent, Although claiming that it is in Anora's name. Anora has no real power at all after Cailan's death. It's all Loghain calling the shots from then on until the Landsmeet.

Alistair's claim to the throne is based on his blood, but it's not a undisputed . Either the Landsmeet pass a ruling that recognizes his blood and he becomes King, or it doesn't and he is simply a commoner.

Anora's claim to the throne is that she is the Queen widower who have proved herself, in the eyes of the people, that she is a capable ruler, and she is also the widow of the King. She represents stability as she is a known factor and could be seen as a continuation of Cailan's reign politically, in the same way as Alistair represents continuation of the royal bloodline .

The Cousland has neither a proven record of his/her ability to rule nor a proven connection by blood. His or her real claim to power is the status of powerful hero. It never says so explicitly, but I would assume that the Landsmeet would be very weary of putting a new war hero on the throne so soon after Loghain's ill-fated regime.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 24 avril 2010 - 08:15 .

[fongiel24]

I don't think blood has as much of an influence on Ferelden as in Orlais (or other real world absolute monarchies like France). The codex points out how peculiar Ferelden is in that the monarch and the nobility essentially can only rule by the consent of their subjects. Just as the freeholders can choose whichever noble they want to live under and be ruled by, the nobles can choose to withhold their support for an unpopular monarch.

The Theirin bloodline is a little bit of a special case but only because of the great respect the nobility have for Calenhad's accomplishments. His descendants were presumably also somewhat able rulers (up to Cailan) or Calenhad's line would probably have just become another noble family as well. The Theirin line just happens to be "lucky" with leaders like Maric and his mother. It's noted in the Stolen Throne that Maric's grandfather was never able to gather the same kind of support as Maric's mother because the man was just not perceived as a ruler. The Ferelden nobility support their monarchs for their personal attributes, not only their blood. If Bryce Cousland had any chance of becoming king after Maric's disappearance, it would be because he is perceived as competent and popular amongst his peers, not because of his name. I think when Eamon puts up Alistair, he is really grasping at straws and hoping respect for Calenhad's line will trump Alistair's obscurity and questionable parentage.

Loghain is unsuccessful in getting the people of Ferelden to follow him despite his achievements because he is respected and feared, but not liked (this is stated at the end of the Stolen Throne). Fereldans are fiercely individualistic and stubborn - slaughtering a few of them is not going to solidify your rule or intimidate them into submission. The Orlesian puppet Meghren tried it and he got his head displayed on a pike for his efforts. If you listen to the gossip in DA:O, Loghain has been waging a very successful military campaign against the dissenting nobles but they still refuse to submit. Why would you, a relative unknown with no army, no land, and no widely-known accomplishments, be able to do any better? If a noble Cousland warden gets on the throne, it will have to be the same way everyone else did - prove your competency as a ruler and build up your popularity amongst the nobility, something which you have no way of doing while on the business of delivering the treaties.

[adembroski11]

Nobility does not equal royalty. Unless I missed a codex entry proclaiming the Couslands related to Theirin, neither Bryce nor his son/daughter have any claim to the throne whatsoever.



Anora's claim is very clear... she is the surviving royal. Consort or Regent, she inherits the position from her husband. Alistair's claim is very clear, being blood related to the late King. So the question comes down to passing the rulership to the wife or onto another Theirin. Even Eamon stated that his claim to the throne was through marriage.



As the previous poster noted, there is a little bit of populism in Ferelden politics, but without a legitimate relation to the throne, you have no claim. Being a popular noble does not make you a king unless you have a legitimate claim in the first place.



It is possible the Landsmeet might chose to oust the existing royal line and install a new one (perhaps the Couslands), but this would be a major coup, and not approached lightly. It would almost certainly have to be Bryce, not his heir, and with both a blood heir and a marital heir suitable to take up the throne, I can't imagine it happening.

[Ulicus]

Valentia X wrote...

(I wouldn't be surprised if the Couslands had some Theirin blood in them, but then I would guess a lot of the other nobles do as well.)

I wouldn't be surprised if they had "illegitimate" Theirin blood unknowingly (all it takes is one illicit affair between a Theirin and a Teyrna Cousland), but I'd be very surprised if they were legitimate descendants of a Theirin and didn't know about it. Loghain gives the impression (once recruited) that all those who carried Theirin blood -- except Maric, of course -- were killed during the Orlesian occupation.

I imagine that there were a number of "families of the Blood" prior to the Orlesian Occupation, though, yeah.

[Lowenhart]

rak72 wrote...

Why can't I appoint my Cousland to rule alone.  I have a more legiamate claim to the throne than Annora - she dosn't even have noble blood.  Bryce was so well loved, I think everyone would be more than pleased to see his youngest ruling.

Because much like Eamon it would seem as your attempting a coup for power, as your the accussing party, so you would likely not recieve the landsmeet backing.

However you both have the option if a HN to marry Aliaster to be queen, or if male marry Anora to be prince consort, but either way it makes not a large difference in the storyline.

[svenus97]

Maric>Anora>Calian>Loghain>Eamon>Alistair>Bryce>Oren>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>CouslandPC

But ! If you become Alistair's chancellor, I think there is an epilogue that says that people know who the "true" ruler is.

Modifié par svenus97, 24 avril 2010 - 12:19 .