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[Xandurpein]

Bratt1204 wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

Bratt1204 wrote...

Ramante wrote...

Bratt1204 wrote...

Alistair is King Maric's son and is next in line to the Throne, based on heredity.

Royal Bastards in Context

    Succession to the English royal throne in the middle ages was often a contentious affair. Important factors to consider in a royal candidate were familial links to the previous king, amount of  support from the noble class, personal power, and leadership ability. In addition, it was also important that the claimant be of legitimate birth.
Accusations of illegitimacy were sometimes used by rivals to smear a royal candidate, and a proven bastard had little chance of wearing the crown, unless he was named William the Conqueror.


Found this, consistent with your timeframe (13th Century).
Reading this I would say that Alistair has little chance of becoming King on his own. :/

Edit: because format hates me.

Only if there are no other legitimate births, would this be so.

Alistair has absolutly no chance at all to become King on his own. Legally he is NOT an heir, up until the Landsmeet decides to make him one. You must understand the crucial difference between a legitimate bastard (i.e. the father officially admits to being the father) and an illegitimate bastard. Maric never officially aknowledged that he was Alistairs father, so Alistair is an illegitimate bastard.

Legally Alistair is just another commoner. A Landsmeet can decide to give Alistair status as legitimate bastard. This is hardly something lightly done and it's almost impossible to see how Alistair could do it without very strong political backing from a major faction like the player and Arl Eamon, coupled with a major political crisis like in the Game.

William the Conqueror was a legitimate bastard. His father the Duke of Normandy had no male heirs so he publically aknoledged William as his son, making him legible as heir. Even William the Conqeror's case was highly unusual. That an illegitemate bastard son of a servant could, on his own, get a Landsmeet ot make him King is almost impossible.

No, Cailan was aware that Alistair was his half brother and actually did not mind him being in court; it was Eamon who did not want Alistair in court when he was young. Cailin is the one who sent Alistair to the Tower of Ishal in order to save his life if things went awry.

Cailan being aware of it does not make him a legitimate heir. It merely makes it within the realm of possibility that you can make the Landsmeet rule to accord him status as legitimate heir, even if he really isn't. What matters is that Maric never officially aknowledged Alistair as his son, even if he considered it. Making Alistair King is not about defending the constitution, it's about politics. Making either Alistair or Anora the monarch is eqally valid from a legal perspective, as neither is a real legitimate heir, but both have things speaking in their favor. It's all just your preference really.

[Bratt1204]

Xandurpein wrote...

What many people seems to miss is that the very fact that there is a possibility to choose to back either Alistair or Anora (or both) is due to the fact that none of them has a clear legititmate claim. When Cailan dies there are no legitimate heirs. So it has to be solved by politics.

That is not correct.  Anora has no claim what-so-ever, her father was a commoner granted the title of Teyrn only recently. Alistair is Maric's son (known to Cailan and Eamon)  therefore has a legitimate claim to the Throne. Yes, many Kings of England were possibly illegitimate.

[Bratt1204]

thegreateski wrote...

Bratt1204 wrote...

thegreateski wrote...

Bratt1204 wrote...

thegreateski wrote...

Bratt1204 wrote...

thegreateski wrote...

King dies - Queen rules
Queen dies - Regent rules
Regent dies - Teyrn rules
Teyrn dies . . . you get the idea.

Something tells me that Howe was planning on following that line of thinking . . . him being the brand spanking new Teyrn of Highever after all.

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

Prove me wrong instead of just saying "you're dumb"

Prove yourself correct with some sort of legitimate argument based on something factual instead of fabrication.

It is impossible to base my arguement on something factual when the arguement is about how people become the king of a land in A @#$%ING VIDEO GAME.

*ahem*

The game is loosely based on 13th Century England. Perhaps you need to study history a bit more before inferring something is fact when it absolutely is not.

It can be based on whatever it wants. This does not make it a fact.

and what the hell are you saying? Was that even an argument?

That you clearly have no idea what you're talking about 

[Xandurpein]

Bratt1204 wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

Bratt1204 wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

Bratt1204 wrote...

thegreateski wrote...

King dies - Queen rules
Queen dies - Regent rules
Regent dies - Teyrn rules
Teyrn dies . . . you get the idea.

Something tells me that Howe was planning on following that line of thinking . . . him being the brand spanking new Teyrn of Highever after all.

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

Seriously? There's no reason to be that rude or condenscending. And they're not entirely incorrect either. If all heridetary rulers were to die out, the next reasonable choice to step onto the plate is the Teryn. They have more practise ruling a large amount of land than Joe Bann. It's not a given but it's one that has merit, since we can't conclusively prove it false.

Yes, seriously. I was not being rude or condescending, simply blunt and making an honest observation.

DA is supposedly, loosely based on 13th Century England - a hereditary Feudal system not a Tanistry


Stating that Anora automatically assumes the Throne as Queen regnant upon the death of her husband Cailin is absolutely ludicrous.

Anora does not become Queen regnant upon the passing of the current Monarch - her father Loghain, is attempting to seize the Throne.

Alistair is King Maric's son and is next in line to the Throne, based on heredity.

Next in line based on noble hierarchy: The most important, oldest Noble family the Cousland male heirs followed by females, then to the lesser (newer) Nobles - Loghain Mac Tir and so on. That may even be in question to their newly acquired 'noble' title. Most likely, next in line of succession would be Eamon or Teagan.

Anora's father is of common birth, thus she has no noble blood herself. 

It is beyond imagination that a kingdom would allow the daughter of an executed treasonous, traitor to rule; It would not happen. However this is a game, after-all.

'You have no idea what you're talking about' is rude, not blunt. 'That's not how it works' is blunt.


I never said that Anora becomes regnant at Cailan's death. I clearly stated that she is regent due to a power vacuum. Unless someone is specifically named when a ruler is absent, their spouse picks up the slack.


And whether people like to acknowledge it or not, Anora is nobility. She's new nobility, new blood, but she was born the daughter of a Teryn, not the daughter of a farmer. Her father was elevated before her birth. No noble line is noble from the beginning- they are lifted to that position at some point, either by conquering it or beling elevated.

It is not my concern what your definition of 'rude' may be. 

Please do not make ridiculous statements. "Unless someone is specifically named when a ruler is absent, their spouse picks up the slack'? What?????

So based on your absurd philosophy -  if President Obama were to die - his wife becomes President? Are you insane? Why are you debating on a topic you nothing about? Queen consorts do not assume the Throne upon their husbands passing, unless they have some claim to the Throne through Royal bloodline or being named successor by the King. What legitimate arguments do you have for Anora -being a women of untrue noble birth to rule a Kingdom based on a Feudal hereditary system? This is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.

Using analogies from a modern presidency, when we are debating medieval monarchies really is a bit sloppy. I am quite convinced that if President Obama dies, they won't let his children take over either, even if they are legitimate.

(It will be the vice president who takes over if Obama dies , So I guess that legitimizes Loghain's regency )

[Xandurpein]

Bratt1204 wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

What many people seems to miss is that the very fact that there is a possibility to choose to back either Alistair or Anora (or both) is due to the fact that none of them has a clear legititmate claim. When Cailan dies there are no legitimate heirs. So it has to be solved by politics.

That is not correct.  Anora has no claim what-so-ever, her father was a commoner granted the title of Teyrn only recently. Alistair is Maric's son (known to Cailan and Eamon)  therefore has a legitimate claim to the Throne. Yes, many Kings of England were possibly illegitimate.

Known to be by some, but it's not publically known, and it was never aknowledged by Maric officially. He must be officially accepted as a legitimate bastard to be an heir. Alistair is an illegitimate bastard. Without political backing he doesn't have any hope at all of making a bid for the Crown to stick.

[Bratt1204]

Xandurpein wrote...

Bratt1204 wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

Bratt1204 wrote...

Ramante wrote...

Bratt1204 wrote...

Alistair is King Maric's son and is next in line to the Throne, based on heredity.

Royal Bastards in Context

    Succession to the English royal throne in the middle ages was often a contentious affair. Important factors to consider in a royal candidate were familial links to the previous king, amount of  support from the noble class, personal power, and leadership ability. In addition, it was also important that the claimant be of legitimate birth.
Accusations of illegitimacy were sometimes used by rivals to smear a royal candidate, and a proven bastard had little chance of wearing the crown, unless he was named William the Conqueror.


Found this, consistent with your timeframe (13th Century).
Reading this I would say that Alistair has little chance of becoming King on his own. :/

Edit: because format hates me.

Only if there are no other legitimate births, would this be so.

Alistair has absolutly no chance at all to become King on his own. Legally he is NOT an heir, up until the Landsmeet decides to make him one. You must understand the crucial difference between a legitimate bastard (i.e. the father officially admits to being the father) and an illegitimate bastard. Maric never officially aknowledged that he was Alistairs father, so Alistair is an illegitimate bastard.

Legally Alistair is just another commoner. A Landsmeet can decide to give Alistair status as legitimate bastard. This is hardly something lightly done and it's almost impossible to see how Alistair could do it without very strong political backing from a major faction like the player and Arl Eamon, coupled with a major political crisis like in the Game.

William the Conqueror was a legitimate bastard. His father the Duke of Normandy had no male heirs so he publically aknoledged William as his son, making him legible as heir. Even William the Conqeror's case was highly unusual. That an illegitemate bastard son of a servant could, on his own, get a Landsmeet ot make him King is almost impossible.

No, Cailan was aware that Alistair was his half brother and actually did not mind him being in court; it was Eamon who did not want Alistair in court when he was young. Cailin is the one who sent Alistair to the Tower of Ishal in order to save his life if things went awry.

Cailan being aware of it does not make him a legitimate heir. It merely makes it within the realm of possibility that you can make the Landsmeet rule to accord him status as legitimate heir, even if he really isn't. What matters is that Maric never officially aknowledged Alistair as his son, even if he considered it. Making Alistair King is not about defending the constitution, it's about politics. Making either Alistair or Anora the monarch is eqally valid from a legal perspective, as neither is a real legitimate heir, but both have things speaking in their favor. It's all just your preference really.

I highly doubt there is a constitution in a Monarchy. This is not a presidential election, it is a Monarchy. Sovereigns are not elected, it is their birthright. If there are no direct heirs - legitimate or illegitimate it would then fall to the next most prominent noble family's male heir. If DA is based on a Monarchy, then it is based on heredity not politically elected rulers. Anora is not a Monarch, has no royal or true noble blood, therefore your argument is unfounded. 

[Bratt1204]

Xandurpein wrote...

Bratt1204 wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

What many people seems to miss is that the very fact that there is a possibility to choose to back either Alistair or Anora (or both) is due to the fact that none of them has a clear legititmate claim. When Cailan dies there are no legitimate heirs. So it has to be solved by politics.

That is not correct.  Anora has no claim what-so-ever, her father was a commoner granted the title of Teyrn only recently. Alistair is Maric's son (known to Cailan and Eamon)  therefore has a legitimate claim to the Throne. Yes, many Kings of England were possibly illegitimate.

Known to be by some, but it's not publically known, and it was never aknowledged by Maric officially. He must be officially accepted as a legitimate bastard to be an heir. Alistair is an illegitimate bastard. Without political backing he doesn't have any hope at all of making a bid for the Crown to stick.

Eamon and Maric both  knew Alistair was Maric's son, they only wanted to spare Maric's wife Rowan from knowing the truth. You do not exactly parade around an illegitimate male child if you already have a legitimate male heir. However, this was not the case if a King only had female children. He would indeed recognize an illegitimate male heir.

[fongiel24]

Bratt1204 wrote...

That is not correct.  Anora has no claim what-so-ever, her father was a commoner granted the title of Teyrn only recently. Alistair is Maric's son (known to Cailan and Eamon)  therefore has a legitimate claim to the Throne. Yes, many Kings of England were possibly illegitimate.

Why does it matter how recently Anora's father became a noble? This isn't Orlais. In Ferelden a noble is a noble and Loghain was risen to nobility by Maric and was Maric's closest confidante. If being from a long noble bloodline is enough, then the Couslands and half the Fereldan nobility would have a legal claim, which they clearly do not.

Neither Anora nor Alistair have legal claims because Fereldans must choose their monarchs. Even if Cailan had had heirs, their regency would still have to be approved. Anora's claim is based on her experience, obvious competency as a ruler, and her familiarity with being on the throne as Cailan's wife. As a staunch traditionalist, Eamon is hoping Ferelden's cultural ties to Calenhad's descendents will make the Landsmeet give Alistair the benefit of the doubt.

The fact that blood does not mean everything in Ferelden is the very essence of Anora's argument when she says that while some nobles would follow Alistair because of his blood, many would seek to exploit his weakness. Blood counts for something in Ferelden, but not without competency.

[Sarah1281]

Eamon and Maric both knew Alistair was Maric's son, they only wanted to spare Maric's wife Rowan from knowing the truth. You do not exactly parade around an illegitimate male child if you already have a legitimate male heir. However, this was not the case if a King only had female children. He would indeed recognize an illegitimate male heir.

But...Maric didn't. Even after Rowan's death he never acknowledged Alistair. Eamon knowing he exists means nothing if no one else does and he quite literally comes out of nowhere demanding the throne.

[TripLight]

Rowan was dead 2-3 years before Alistair was supposedly born. He wanted to acknowledge and claim him, but by doing so, it would make the former Queen to appear to be nothing but a concubine, to other countries and people. Maric chose not to because of that.

[Sarah1281]

That makes no sense, though, if she was already dead. Or do they really expect King's or other nobles to never remarry/have other heirs once their legitimate spouse is dead?

[TripLight]

Sarah1281 wrote...

That makes no sense, though, if she was already dead. Or do they really expect King's or other nobles to never remarry/have other heirs once their legitimate spouse is dead?

I got that bit when I asked Loghain about Maric not acknowledging him, and that's the answer he gave me.

Edit: If I had the toolset I would have pasted the convo here but I don't and I fail at the TS.

Modifié par TripLight, 25 avril 2010 - 11:16 .

[Korva]

Frankly everything I've read about Maric and women makes me want to saw that man's genitals off in micrometer-thin slices. :innocent: If he really was so concerned about his queen's reputation, posthumously or otherwise, he should not have f*cked around, period. Or at least, if he refused to keep it in his pants, he should have remarried. It may make it more realistic that he was no perfect golden boy (unlike some players' perception of their own characters, apparently), but his irresponsibility in that regard is extremely off-putting IMO. The only decent thing to do would have been to admit his mistake and give the kid a good life instead of washing his hands off him and leaving him (Alistair) to suffer for his (Maric's) lack of self-control and decency.

Anyway, I wholeheartedly agree that it'd be an extremely bad idea at an extremely bad time, and likely testament of a bad character too boot, for the Cousland Warden to make a grab for the throne. I'm glad Bioware didn't include that option -- though it would be amusing if it were possible to try staging a coup, only to soundly get shot down and end up disgraced for it. The PC has nothing but a respected family name, and even that isn't technically theirs to throw around anymore because Grey Wardens leave such things behild when they Join.

And seriously, the only situation in the game in which you need to show any real leadership, diplomacy and initiative is the non-violent resolution for Nature of the Beast, which is entirely optional. Every other situation is basically just gruntwork and errand running, with things spelled out for you from start to finish. Yes, in a "real world" there would be more to it (you couldn't pick the "disrespectful brat" or "psycho killer" options and expect to get far, for one), but in a "real world" there is not a snowflake's chance in hell that four random yahoos could take on the kind and numbers of enemies the game throws at us, nor would all the NPCs be so passive and incompetent, so the "real" story would end up feeling quite different and a lot less "ZOMG im so awesomesauce lol". Game mechanics are over the top and heavily slanted in the player's favor, so they are rarely a good meter of how competent a PC could realistically be.

Modifié par Korva, 26 avril 2010 - 12:00 .

[fongiel24]

TripLight wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

That makes no sense, though, if she was already dead. Or do they really expect King's or other nobles to never remarry/have other heirs once their legitimate spouse is dead?

I got that bit when I asked Loghain about Maric not acknowledging him, and that's the answer he gave me.

Edit: If I had the toolset I would have pasted the convo here but I don't and I fail at the TS.

There seems to be some inconsistencies between the game and the Calling. If you follow what Loghain says in the game, it sounds like Alistair was born while Rowan was still alive. If you buy into the theory that Alistair is the product of a relationship Maric had in the Calling, then Alistair was conceived after Rowan's death. I personally believe in the Calling theory and discount what Loghain said as either Loghain not knowing all the facts or Maric lying to him. Either way though, Alistair is still a bastard. The question is whether he was conceived while Rowan was alive or after her death.

[fongiel24]

Korva wrote...

Frankly everything I've read about Maric and women makes me want to saw that man's genitals off in micrometer-thin slices. :innocent: If he really was so concerned about his queen's reputation, posthumously or otherwise, he should not have f*cked around, period. Or at least, if he refused to keep it in his pants, he should have remarried. It may make it more realistic that he was no perfect golden boy (unlike some players' perception of their own characters, apparently), but his irresponsibility in that regard is extremely off-putting IMO. The only decent thing to do would have been to admit his mistake and give the kid a good life instead of washing his hands off him and leaving him (Alistair) to suffer for his (Maric's) lack of self-control and decency.

There's no need to take a beltsander or other industrial-grade construction equipment to Maric's crown jewels yet . Other than Alistair, how many other examples are there really of Maric sleeping around? From the books, I got the impression Maric is actually very serious about his romantic affairs. If you haven't read it, you should take a look at the Calling. It gives some insight into Alistair's possible origins.

Concerning Alistair, as Loghain said Maric would have preferred to acknowledge Alistair but his kingly responsibilities prevented him from doing so. Maric leaving Alistair with his brother-in-law (Eamon) is hardly washing his hands of him. While it seems a bit suspicious that Maric didn't check up on his son occasionally, it was Eamon's fault the kid had to sleep in a stable since Maric could hardly have played a hands-on role in Alistair's life without raising suspicions.

[OrlesianWardenCommander]

Who ever thinks couslands have the right to the throne are thick headed loyalists that have a faluse pretext that couslands can take the throne. When you need to either have to have therin blood or have a claim through marrage. Couslands were not powerful enough to take over and the nobles wouldn't allow a noble to steal the throne while heirs still exist couslands have no right what so ever to the throne unless through marrage. Why do you think that you have to become king or queen by marrying anora or alistar. Who ever disagrees with me is a real idiot use logic that you've obtained by playing this game. nobles can only have a spot in the throne through marrage. Case closed i dont see how this is such a big debate the popularity of your father doesn't transfer over to his children on his death. Reputation is earned not passed down. Also if you become chanslor for alistar after the blight has ended (Spoiler) it states in the epiloge that you effectively rule the country as alistar support you ruling as he makes public apperences. So you dont really need to take over nore can you. Get your heads out your asses cousland huggers.

[westiex9]

OrlesianWardenCommander wrote...

Who ever thinks couslands have the right to the throne are thick headed loyalists that have a faluse pretext that couslands can take the throne. When you need to either have to have therin blood or have a claim through marrage. Couslands were not powerful enough to take over and the nobles wouldn't allow a noble to steal the throne while heirs still exist couslands have no right what so ever to the throne unless through marrage. Why do you think that you have to become king or queen by marrying anora or alistar. Who ever disagrees with me is a real idiot use logic that you've obtained by playing this game. nobles can only have a spot in the throne through marrage. Case closed i dont see how this is such a big debate the popularity of your father doesn't transfer over to his children on his death. Reputation is earned not passed down. Also if you become chanslor for alistar after the blight has ended (Spoiler) it states in the epiloge that you effectively rule the country as alistar support you ruling as he makes public apperences. So you dont really need to take over nore can you. Get your heads out your asses cousland huggers.

My eyes are straining just trying to read through that sea of vitriol,incoherance much. 

The Couslands have proven themselves great rulers throughout their four hundred years of history, if theres a squabble over the throne they could easily make a strong argument for legitimacy, it wouldn't neccesarily be true but politics isn't about being true its about getting enough people to believe a nice lie

Modifié par westiex9, 26 avril 2010 - 04:21 .

[Xandurpein]

Bratt1204 wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

Bratt1204 wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

What many people seems to miss is that the very fact that there is a possibility to choose to back either Alistair or Anora (or both) is due to the fact that none of them has a clear legititmate claim. When Cailan dies there are no legitimate heirs. So it has to be solved by politics.

That is not correct.  Anora has no claim what-so-ever, her father was a commoner granted the title of Teyrn only recently. Alistair is Maric's son (known to Cailan and Eamon)  therefore has a legitimate claim to the Throne. Yes, many Kings of England were possibly illegitimate.

Known to be by some, but it's not publically known, and it was never aknowledged by Maric officially. He must be officially accepted as a legitimate bastard to be an heir. Alistair is an illegitimate bastard. Without political backing he doesn't have any hope at all of making a bid for the Crown to stick.

Eamon and Maric both  knew Alistair was Maric's son, they only wanted to spare Maric's wife Rowan from knowing the truth. You do not exactly parade around an illegitimate male child if you already have a legitimate male heir. However, this was not the case if a King only had female children. He would indeed recognize an illegitimate male heir.

I think you mistake medieval laws regarding children born out of marriage, from modern laws. In modern law it is enough to prove that you are indeed a child of someone to be eligble to inhert them. This is not the case for medieval nobility. What legitimized a child in the eyes of the law then was if the father officially aknowledged that he was the father, then the child could have certain rights as legitimate bastard, including rights to inherit if there is no heirs within marriage. If the father did not aknowledge the child as his, it really doesn't matter if it's a dirty secret half the world knows, the child is still an illegitimate bastard and not an heir. If a nobleman made a woman pregnant and didn't own up to it, then she was on her own (unless she was nobility herself and had a powerful family that could force a marriage) and her child had no rights at all.

If the father was a decent person, or at least wanted to avoid a scandal, he could let  the child have some sort allowance, but at the same time made sure the child was aware of that it had no rights at all. Much like Alistairs upbringing. Alistair is repatedly told that he has no rights at all to the throne. The crucial point in the law is that since Maric didn't officially aknowledge Alistair as his son, he is an illegitimate bastard and as such has no rights as possible heir, even if Cailan dies without an heir.

We know Maric seems to have vacillated about recognizing Alistair, and it does seem that Eamon took a personal interest in Alistair's upbringing. That, or the fact that Eamon or Cailan knows about Alistair's birth, does not make him a legitimate heir, but it seems to be enough to make it possible for Eamon to come up with the idea of having the Landsmeet pass a ruling on Alistair's birth. In effect the Landsmeet then overrules Maric's decision, not to legitimize Alistair. That the Landsmeet can do so, is however more of a political decision. If Alistair had gone to a court and demanded that he be recognized as an heir, he would have no luck, even he calls Eamon as witness.

I am not implying that Anora's case is stronger than Alistair's. It's simply a political decision in which two parties; Anora and Arl Eamon, are the major actors and the player character ends up being able to decide between them. Without Arl Eamons political prestige however, Alistair has no chance whatsoever of becoming King. Had Anora and Eamon struck a deal prior to the Landsmeet, then I don't see how it could have been even remotely possible for the player to put Alistair on the throne. It's Eamon's power that can put Alistair on the throne, by persuading the Landsmeet to overrule Maric's decision not to make Alistair a potential heir to the throne.

I think the last part is also why a Cousland cannot persuade the Landsmeet to make him or her King/Queen in their own right. After Loghain's defeat, Anora and Eamon are the major political powers in the country. I think that the player's power to decide stems primarily from being able to tip the scale in either favor.

It's up to the player to ultimatly support who they think should be on the throne, support Anora and make her Queen or support Eamon and make Alistair King. Whatever you choose will be confirmed by the Landsmeet and that will make it all legal.

The player can let Alistair represent the Grey Wardens instead of himself/herself, by letting Alistair be the one who duels Loghain. This is why Alistair then is the one who decides Loghain's fate and will even resolve the conflict over the throne himself, if 'hardened'. This is however in effect to let Alistair speak on behalf of the Grey Wardens and tip the scale in the conflict between Eamon and Anora over who should rule.

/Edit. The situation at the Landsmeet is quite clear. The player can choose to either make Alistair King or make Anora Queen, but they cannot put anybody else on the throne. There are really only two possible explanations for this. Either: (A) Both of them have valid claims to the throne and the player gets to choose, or ( None of them have valid claims to the throne, but neither has anyone else, and Alistair and Anora are the two choices with the largest political backing.
Since neither a Consort nor an illegitimate bastard has legal rights as heir, I think it's obvious that it is ( that is correct.

It's also worth noting that even if Alistair is at 100% Love with a female Cousland and she pretty much have him doing whatever she wants, there is no chance of persuading Alistair to make the Cousland Queen with Alistair as consort. This is of course because Alistair has no own power base, it is Eamon's power that puts Alistair on the throne, and Eamon will never accept that.

This is of course all just legalities and power politics. It is still perfectly possible for any player character to believe in a moral right of either side. Just as Eamon believes that morally Alistair is Maric's heir, even if he isn't it legally, or as Anora believes that her service as de facto ruler under Cailan makes her morally entitled to the throne. Personal morality is just your personal opinion after all.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 26 avril 2010 - 12:22 .

[devilsgrin]

/Edit. The situation at the Landsmeet really explains it. The player can choose to either make Alistair King or make Anora Queen, but they cannot put anybody else on the throne. There are really only two possible explanations for this. Either: (A) Both of them have valid claims to the throne and the player gets to choose, or ( None of them have valid claims to the throne, but neither has anyone else, and Alistair and Anora are the two choices with the largest political backing.
Since neither a Consort nor an illegitimate bastard has legal rights as heir, I think it's obvious that it is ( that is correct.


i agree with this. Neither Anora nor Alistair have ligitimate legal rights to the throne. She is nothing more than the dead king's wife... she could have been Dowager Queen/Queen Mother/even Queen Regent had she had a child (which being apparently Barren she couldn't), without a child to tie her to the crown, she has no claim at all.
Alistair's claim is just a shaky... if more palatable for Theirin traditionalists.

After these two, the political forces of Fereldan, would be forced choose between Eamon, who has as much claim as Anora (more, since he is male, and Fereldan is still rather sexist, as it should be in a medieval setting such as DA), and Fergus, as the legitimate Teyrn of Highever. Loghain, tied to the political backlash of essentially abandoning the King to death, starting a civil war, colluding to murder both Bryce and Eamon (theres no way he didn't know about Howe's Castle Highever massacre before it happened), the Teyrn of Gwaren would be persona non grata... and shunned entirely, if not executed by the new king as a traitor to Fereldan (a great and tragic irony for the man Loghain WAS).

[Xandurpein]

devilsgrin wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

/Edit. The situation at the Landsmeet really explains it. The player can choose to either make Alistair King or make Anora Queen, but they cannot put anybody else on the throne. There are really only two possible explanations for this. Either: (A) Both of them have valid claims to the throne and the player gets to choose, or ( None of them have valid claims to the throne, but neither has anyone else, and Alistair and Anora are the two choices with the largest political backing.
Since neither a Consort nor an illegitimate bastard has legal rights as heir, I think it's obvious that it is ( that is correct.

i agree with this. Neither Anora nor Alistair have ligitimate legal rights to the throne. She is nothing more than the dead king's wife... she could have been Dowager Queen/Queen Mother/even Queen Regent had she had a child (which being apparently Barren she couldn't), without a child to tie her to the crown, she has no claim at all.
Alistair's claim is just a shaky... if more palatable for Theirin traditionalists.

After these two, the political forces of Fereldan, would be forced choose between Eamon, who has as much claim as Anora (more, since he is male, and Fereldan is still rather sexist, as it should be in a medieval setting such as DA), and Fergus, as the legitimate Teyrn of Highever. Loghain, tied to the political backlash of essentially abandoning the King to death, starting a civil war, colluding to murder both Bryce and Eamon (theres no way he didn't know about Howe's Castle Highever massacre before it happened), the Teyrn of Gwaren would be persona non grata... and shunned entirely, if not executed by the new king as a traitor to Fereldan (a great and tragic irony for the man Loghain WAS).

That's is more or less right. Although, Alistair's bid really hinges on Eamon's support. Alistair has no political power base at all, so on his own has no chance against Anora. If Eamon wanted to go after the throne for himself, it would have been a struggle beween Eamon in person and Anora instead and Alistair would probably not even be part of the picture. Fergus Cousland is really too young and untested to have formed a strong political support for himself, even if he has the prestige of the Cousland name.  Not to mention that everyone thinks he is dead during the Landsmeet.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 26 avril 2010 - 12:15 .

[Xandurpein]

Deleted. Wrong post

Modifié par Xandurpein, 26 avril 2010 - 11:42 .

[Bratt1204]

Xandurpein wrote...

Bratt1204 wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

Bratt1204 wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

What many people seems to miss is that the very fact that there is a possibility to choose to back either Alistair or Anora (or both) is due to the fact that none of them has a clear legititmate claim. When Cailan dies there are no legitimate heirs. So it has to be solved by politics.

That is not correct.  Anora has no claim what-so-ever, her father was a commoner granted the title of Teyrn only recently. Alistair is Maric's son (known to Cailan and Eamon)  therefore has a legitimate claim to the Throne. Yes, many Kings of England were possibly illegitimate.

Known to be by some, but it's not publically known, and it was never aknowledged by Maric officially. He must be officially accepted as a legitimate bastard to be an heir. Alistair is an illegitimate bastard. Without political backing he doesn't have any hope at all of making a bid for the Crown to stick.

Eamon and Maric both  knew Alistair was Maric's son, they only wanted to spare Maric's wife Rowan from knowing the truth. You do not exactly parade around an illegitimate male child if you already have a legitimate male heir. However, this was not the case if a King only had female children. He would indeed recognize an illegitimate male heir.

I think you mistake medieval laws regarding children born out of marriage, from modern laws. In modern law it is enough to prove that you are indeed a child of someone to be eligble to inhert them. This is not the case for medieval nobility. What legitimized a child in the eyes of the law then was if the father officially aknowledged that he was the father, then the child could have certain rights as legitimate bastard, including rights to inherit if there is no heirs within marriage. If the father did not aknowledge the child as his, it really doesn't matter if it's a dirty secret half the world knows, the child is still an illegitimate bastard and not an heir. If a nobleman made a woman pregnant and didn't own up to it, then she was on her own (unless she was nobility herself and had a powerful family that could force a marriage) and her child had no rights at all.

If the father was a decent person, or at least wanted to avoid a scandal, he could let  the child have some sort allowance, but at the same time made sure the child was aware of that it had no rights at all. Much like Alistairs upbringing. Alistair is repatedly told that he has no rights at all to the throne. The crucial point in the law is that since Maric didn't officially aknowledge Alistair as his son, he is an illegitimate bastard and as such has no rights as possible heir, even if Cailan dies without an heir.

We know Maric seems to have vacillated about recognizing Alistair, and it does seem that Eamon took a personal interest in Alistair's upbringing. That, or the fact that Eamon or Cailan knows about Alistair's birth, does not make him a legitimate heir, but it seems to be enough to make it possible for Eamon to come up with the idea of having the Landsmeet pass a ruling on Alistair's birth. In effect the Landsmeet then overrules Maric's decision, not to legitimize Alistair. That the Landsmeet can do so, is however more of a political decision. If Alistair had gone to a court and demanded that he be recognized as an heir, he would have no luck, even he calls Eamon as witness.

I am not implying that Anora's case is stronger than Alistair's. It's simply a political decision in which two parties; Anora and Arl Eamon, are the major actors and the player character ends up being able to decide between them. Without Arl Eamons political prestige however, Alistair has no chance whatsoever of becoming King. Had Anora and Eamon struck a deal prior to the Landsmeet, then I don't see how it could have been even remotely possible for the player to put Alistair on the throne. It's Eamon's power that can put Alistair on the throne, by persuading the Landsmeet to overrule Maric's decision not to make Alistair a potential heir to the throne.

I think the last part is also why a Cousland cannot persuade the Landsmeet to make him or her King/Queen in their own right. After Loghain's defeat, Anora and Eamon are the major political powers in the country. I think that the player's power to decide stems primarily from being able to tip the scale in either favor.

It's up to the player to ultimatly support who they think should be on the throne, support Anora and make her Queen or support Eamon and make Alistair King. Whatever you choose will be confirmed by the Landsmeet and that will make it all legal.

The player can let Alistair represent the Grey Wardens instead of himself/herself, by letting Alistair be the one who duels Loghain. This is why Alistair then is the one who decides Loghain's fate and will even resolve the conflict over the throne himself, if 'hardened'. This is however in effect to let Alistair speak on behalf of the Grey Wardens and tip the scale in the conflict between Eamon and Anora over who should rule.

/Edit. The situation at the Landsmeet is quite clear. The player can choose to either make Alistair King or make Anora Queen, but they cannot put anybody else on the throne. There are really only two possible explanations for this. Either: (A) Both of them have valid claims to the throne and the player gets to choose, or ( None of them have valid claims to the throne, but neither has anyone else, and Alistair and Anora are the two choices with the largest political backing.
Since neither a Consort nor an illegitimate bastard has legal rights as heir, I think it's obvious that it is ( that is correct.

It's also worth noting that even if Alistair is at 100% Love with a female Cousland and she pretty much have him doing whatever she wants, there is no chance of persuading Alistair to make the Cousland Queen with Alistair as consort. This is of course because Alistair has no own power base, it is Eamon's power that puts Alistair on the throne, and Eamon will never accept that.

This is of course all just legalities and power politics. It is still perfectly possible for any player character to believe in a moral right of either side. Just as Eamon believes that morally Alistair is Maric's heir, even if he isn't it legally, or as Anora believes that her service as de facto ruler under Cailan makes her morally entitled to the throne. Personal morality is just your personal opinion after all.

Now you are putting forth an argument based on modern law practices instead of the laws laid down by the Monarchy as was in the 13th Century? A Monarch serves as the exclusive source of political power, lays down all laws and is not bound to any constitution and therefore would be no courts of law to prove royal legitimacy. Having no remaining legitimate heir to the throne of Ferelden makes this fictitious DA situation quite daunting and open to major debate.


Taken from the London Mail, May 3rd, 2005: 

About Prince Rainier of Monaco -

"...Prince Rainier's mother, Charlotte, was the illegitimate offspring of his grandfather Prince Louis, and a West African washerwoman. 

In the absence of a legitimate heir, Charlotte was later adopted by the royal family and on her marriage produced the son that would ensure the continuance of the throne."
 

Modifié par Bratt1204, 26 avril 2010 - 01:20 .

[Bratt1204]

fongiel24 wrote...

Bratt1204 wrote...

That is not correct.  Anora has no claim what-so-ever, her father was a commoner granted the title of Teyrn only recently. Alistair is Maric's son (known to Cailan and Eamon)  therefore has a legitimate claim to the Throne. Yes, many Kings of England were possibly illegitimate.

Why does it matter how recently Anora's father became a noble? This isn't Orlais. In Ferelden a noble is a noble and Loghain was risen to nobility by Maric and was Maric's closest confidante. If being from a long noble bloodline is enough, then the Couslands and half the Fereldan nobility would have a legal claim, which they clearly do not.

Neither Anora nor Alistair have legal claims because Fereldans must choose their monarchs. Even if Cailan had had heirs, their regency would still have to be approved. Anora's claim is based on her experience, obvious competency as a ruler, and her familiarity with being on the throne as Cailan's wife. As a staunch traditionalist, Eamon is hoping Ferelden's cultural ties to Calenhad's descendents will make the Landsmeet give Alistair the benefit of the doubt.

The fact that blood does not mean everything in Ferelden is the very essence of Anora's argument when she says that while some nobles would follow Alistair because of his blood, many would seek to exploit his weakness. Blood counts for something in Ferelden, but not without competency.

It does.

[Bratt1204]

fongiel24 wrote...

Bratt1204 wrote...

That is not correct.  Anora has no claim what-so-ever, her father was a commoner granted the title of Teyrn only recently. Alistair is Maric's son (known to Cailan and Eamon)  therefore has a legitimate claim to the Throne. Yes, many Kings of England were possibly illegitimate.

Why does it matter how recently Anora's father became a noble? This isn't Orlais. In Ferelden a noble is a noble and Loghain was risen to nobility by Maric and was Maric's closest confidante. If being from a long noble bloodline is enough, then the Couslands and half the Fereldan nobility would have a legal claim, which they clearly do not.

Neither Anora nor Alistair have legal claims because Fereldans must choose their monarchs. Even if Cailan had had heirs, their regency would still have to be approved. Anora's claim is based on her experience, obvious competency as a ruler, and her familiarity with being on the throne as Cailan's wife. As a staunch traditionalist, Eamon is hoping Ferelden's cultural ties to Calenhad's descendents will make the Landsmeet give Alistair the benefit of the doubt.

The fact that blood does not mean everything in Ferelden is the very essence of Anora's argument when she says that while some nobles would follow Alistair because of his blood, many would seek to exploit his weakness. Blood counts for something in Ferelden, but not without competency.

 
What? DA is loosely based on 13 Century England's Feudal System which is a Monarchy. 

[Xandurpein]

Bratt1204 wrote...

Taken from the London Mail, May 3rd, 2005: 

About Prince Rainier of Monaco -

"...Prince Rainier's mother, Charlotte, was the illegitimate offspring of his grandfather Prince Louis, and a West African washerwoman. 

In the absence of a legitimate heir, Charlotte was later adopted by the royal family and on her marriage produced the son that would ensure the continuance of the throne."

But that is what I have been trying to explain the whole time. The royal family can adopt illegitimate children into the family to ensure continuance of the royal family. Exactly like the case of William the Conqueror and Prince Rainier's mother. This adoption legitimizes the bastard. Maric never did aknowledge Alistair so he was NOT legitimized. When Cailan dies it's to late. Alistair cannot be legitimized in the way you describe, because there is simply no one left to adopt Alistair. That is why Eamon needs a Landsmeet to over rule Maric's decision not to aknowledge him.

You end up with a circular argument. If the King is the sole source of power, then only a King can make Alistair heir, but there is no King who can make him an heir, unless you first make Alistair King, but then he's not an heir.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 26 avril 2010 - 01:31 .