261 réponses à ce sujet

[westiex9]

Bratt1204 wrote...

fongiel24 wrote...

Bratt1204 wrote...

That is not correct.  Anora has no claim what-so-ever, her father was a commoner granted the title of Teyrn only recently. Alistair is Maric's son (known to Cailan and Eamon)  therefore has a legitimate claim to the Throne. Yes, many Kings of England were possibly illegitimate.

Why does it matter how recently Anora's father became a noble? This isn't Orlais. In Ferelden a noble is a noble and Loghain was risen to nobility by Maric and was Maric's closest confidante. If being from a long noble bloodline is enough, then the Couslands and half the Fereldan nobility would have a legal claim, which they clearly do not.

Neither Anora nor Alistair have legal claims because Fereldans must choose their monarchs. Even if Cailan had had heirs, their regency would still have to be approved. Anora's claim is based on her experience, obvious competency as a ruler, and her familiarity with being on the throne as Cailan's wife. As a staunch traditionalist, Eamon is hoping Ferelden's cultural ties to Calenhad's descendents will make the Landsmeet give Alistair the benefit of the doubt.

The fact that blood does not mean everything in Ferelden is the very essence of Anora's argument when she says that while some nobles would follow Alistair because of his blood, many would seek to exploit his weakness. Blood counts for something in Ferelden, but not without competency.

 
What? DA is loosely based on 13 Century England's Feudal System which is a Monarchy. 

With some heavy sprinkling of Celtic rule thrown in too,
 
Anywho alistair has a far stronger claim then anora because he is the kings son illegitimate or no, in ferelden the ruling family passes down its titles to those of royal blood, and since anora has none looks Alistair has a far stronger claim.

[Remaix]

Bratt1204 wrote...

fongiel24 wrote...

Bratt1204 wrote...

That is not correct.  Anora has no claim what-so-ever, her father was a commoner granted the title of Teyrn only recently. Alistair is Maric's son (known to Cailan and Eamon)  therefore has a legitimate claim to the Throne. Yes, many Kings of England were possibly illegitimate.

Why does it matter how recently Anora's father became a noble? This isn't Orlais. In Ferelden a noble is a noble and Loghain was risen to nobility by Maric and was Maric's closest confidante. If being from a long noble bloodline is enough, then the Couslands and half the Fereldan nobility would have a legal claim, which they clearly do not.

Neither Anora nor Alistair have legal claims because Fereldans must choose their monarchs. Even if Cailan had had heirs, their regency would still have to be approved. Anora's claim is based on her experience, obvious competency as a ruler, and her familiarity with being on the throne as Cailan's wife. As a staunch traditionalist, Eamon is hoping Ferelden's cultural ties to Calenhad's descendents will make the Landsmeet give Alistair the benefit of the doubt.

The fact that blood does not mean everything in Ferelden is the very essence of Anora's argument when she says that while some nobles would follow Alistair because of his blood, many would seek to exploit his weakness. Blood counts for something in Ferelden, but not without competency.

It does.

...You could, oh, I don't know... try backing this up with facts. Don't just say  "No, you're wrong, I'm right." If you believe it matters, explain why. Otherwise you really are adding nothing to this discussion.

[Xandurpein]

westiex9 wrote...

With some heavy sprinkling of Celtic rule thrown in too,
 
Anywho alistair has a far stronger claim then anora because he is the kings son illegitimate or no, in ferelden the ruling family passes down its titles to those of royal blood, and since anora has none looks Alistair has a far stronger claim.

At the risk of repeating myself. The tiles are passed down to those of legitimate royal blood. Maric did not legitimize Alistair, and thus he is not a valid heir, unless power politics change it.

[westiex9]

Xandurpein wrote...

westiex9 wrote...

With some heavy sprinkling of Celtic rule thrown in too,
 
Anywho alistair has a far stronger claim then anora because he is the kings son illegitimate or no, in ferelden the ruling family passes down its titles to those of royal blood, and since anora has none looks Alistair has a far stronger claim.

At the risk of repeating myself. The tiles are passed down to those of legitimate royal blood. Maric did not legitimize Alistair, and thus he is not a valid heir, unless power politics change it.

Ah forgot about the whole illegitimate part......in any case in a situation as extreme as the landsmeet even alistairs illegitimate status makes his claim superior to Anora's

[Bratt1204]

Xandurpein wrote...

Bratt1204 wrote...

Taken from the London Mail, May 3rd, 2005: 

About Prince Rainier of Monaco -

"...Prince Rainier's mother, Charlotte, was the illegitimate offspring of his grandfather Prince Louis, and a West African washerwoman. 

In the absence of a legitimate heir, Charlotte was later adopted by the royal family and on her marriage produced the son that would ensure the continuance of the throne."

But that is what I have been trying to explain the whole time. The royal family can adopt illegitimate children into the family to ensure continuance of the royal family. Exactly like the case of William the Conqueror and Prince Rainier's mother. This adoption legitimizes the bastard. Maric never did aknowledge Alistair so he was NOT legitimized. When Cailan dies it's to late. Alistair cannot be legitimized in the way you describe, because there is simply no one left to adopt Alistair. That is why Eamon needs a Landsmeet to over rule Maric's decision not to aknowledge him.

You end up with a circular argument. If the King is the sole source of power, then only a King can make Alistair heir, but there is no King who can make him an heir, unless you first make Alistair King, but then he's not an heir.

That is precisely why this topic is so fiercely debated; this is what that game developers intended.

[Xandurpein]

westiex9 wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

westiex9 wrote...

With some heavy sprinkling of Celtic rule thrown in too,
 
Anywho alistair has a far stronger claim then anora because he is the kings son illegitimate or no, in ferelden the ruling family passes down its titles to those of royal blood, and since anora has none looks Alistair has a far stronger claim.

At the risk of repeating myself. The tiles are passed down to those of legitimate royal blood. Maric did not legitimize Alistair, and thus he is not a valid heir, unless power politics change it.

Ah forgot about the whole illegitimate part......in any case in a situation as extreme as the landsmeet even alistairs illegitimate status makes his claim superior to Anora's

Legally it gives him no claim at all. As Maric didn't legitimize him, he is just the son of a servant woman as far as the laws of succession are concerned. The rest is just politicsand personal opinion. As I said before, Eamon believes one thing, Anora believes another thing. You support one side and then the Landsmeet confirms the decision and it becomes legal, whatever you choose.

[Bratt1204]

Remaix wrote...

Bratt1204 wrote...

fongiel24 wrote...

Bratt1204 wrote...

That is not correct.  Anora has no claim what-so-ever, her father was a commoner granted the title of Teyrn only recently. Alistair is Maric's son (known to Cailan and Eamon)  therefore has a legitimate claim to the Throne. Yes, many Kings of England were possibly illegitimate.

Why does it matter how recently Anora's father became a noble? This isn't Orlais. In Ferelden a noble is a noble and Loghain was risen to nobility by Maric and was Maric's closest confidante. If being from a long noble bloodline is enough, then the Couslands and half the Fereldan nobility would have a legal claim, which they clearly do not.

Neither Anora nor Alistair have legal claims because Fereldans must choose their monarchs. Even if Cailan had had heirs, their regency would still have to be approved. Anora's claim is based on her experience, obvious competency as a ruler, and her familiarity with being on the throne as Cailan's wife. As a staunch traditionalist, Eamon is hoping Ferelden's cultural ties to Calenhad's descendents will make the Landsmeet give Alistair the benefit of the doubt.

The fact that blood does not mean everything in Ferelden is the very essence of Anora's argument when she says that while some nobles would follow Alistair because of his blood, many would seek to exploit his weakness. Blood counts for something in Ferelden, but not without competency.

It does.

...You could, oh, I don't know... try backing this up with facts. Don't just say  "No, you're wrong, I'm right." If you believe it matters, explain why. Otherwise you really are adding nothing to this discussion.

Why don't you go back and read all of my posts before making idiotic statement such as this, or are you just too lazy to read them all??

[Remaix]

Bratt1204 wrote...

Remaix wrote...

Bratt1204 wrote...

fongiel24 wrote...

Bratt1204 wrote...

That is not correct.  Anora has no claim what-so-ever, her father was a commoner granted the title of Teyrn only recently. Alistair is Maric's son (known to Cailan and Eamon)  therefore has a legitimate claim to the Throne. Yes, many Kings of England were possibly illegitimate.

Why does it matter how recently Anora's father became a noble? This isn't Orlais. In Ferelden a noble is a noble and Loghain was risen to nobility by Maric and was Maric's closest confidante. If being from a long noble bloodline is enough, then the Couslands and half the Fereldan nobility would have a legal claim, which they clearly do not.

Neither Anora nor Alistair have legal claims because Fereldans must choose their monarchs. Even if Cailan had had heirs, their regency would still have to be approved. Anora's claim is based on her experience, obvious competency as a ruler, and her familiarity with being on the throne as Cailan's wife. As a staunch traditionalist, Eamon is hoping Ferelden's cultural ties to Calenhad's descendents will make the Landsmeet give Alistair the benefit of the doubt.

The fact that blood does not mean everything in Ferelden is the very essence of Anora's argument when she says that while some nobles would follow Alistair because of his blood, many would seek to exploit his weakness. Blood counts for something in Ferelden, but not without competency.

It does.

...You could, oh, I don't know... try backing this up with facts. Don't just say  "No, you're wrong, I'm right." If you believe it matters, explain why. Otherwise you really are adding nothing to this discussion.

Why don't you go back and read all of my posts before making idiotic statement such as this, or are you just too lazy to read them all??

I did read your posts. That still means that just saying 'It does.' adds nothing to the discussion.

[Xandurpein]

Bratt1204 wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

You end up with a circular argument. If the King is the sole source of power, then only a King can make Alistair heir, but there is no King who can make him an heir, unless you first make Alistair King, but then he's not an heir.

That is precisely why this topic is so fiercely debated; this is what that game developers intended.

For once we agree.

I belive that the whole situation is set up so that there is no lawfully "right" decision in any objective sense. It's up to each player to decide what their personal feelings are in the matter.

[Xandurpein]

@Bratt1204 and everyone else who posted here



To give credit where it's due and preserve the good humor. Thank you all for a nice and stimulating debate. If I managed to sound a bit harsh or too sure of myself I apologize. Let's keep it nice shall we.

[westiex9]

Xandurpein wrote...

@Bratt1204 and everyone else who posted here

To give credit where it's due and preserve the good humor. Thank you all for a nice and stimulating debate. If I managed to sound a bit harsh or too sure of myself I apologize. Let's keep it nice shall we.

Westie Approves + 100

[Bratt1204]

Remaix wrote...

Bratt1204 wrote...

Remaix wrote...

Bratt1204 wrote...

fongiel24 wrote...

Bratt1204 wrote...

That is not correct.  Anora has no claim what-so-ever, her father was a commoner granted the title of Teyrn only recently. Alistair is Maric's son (known to Cailan and Eamon)  therefore has a legitimate claim to the Throne. Yes, many Kings of England were possibly illegitimate.

Why does it matter how recently Anora's father became a noble? This isn't Orlais. In Ferelden a noble is a noble and Loghain was risen to nobility by Maric and was Maric's closest confidante. If being from a long noble bloodline is enough, then the Couslands and half the Fereldan nobility would have a legal claim, which they clearly do not.

Neither Anora nor Alistair have legal claims because Fereldans must choose their monarchs. Even if Cailan had had heirs, their regency would still have to be approved. Anora's claim is based on her experience, obvious competency as a ruler, and her familiarity with being on the throne as Cailan's wife. As a staunch traditionalist, Eamon is hoping Ferelden's cultural ties to Calenhad's descendents will make the Landsmeet give Alistair the benefit of the doubt.

The fact that blood does not mean everything in Ferelden is the very essence of Anora's argument when she says that while some nobles would follow Alistair because of his blood, many would seek to exploit his weakness. Blood counts for something in Ferelden, but not without competency.

It does.

...You could, oh, I don't know... try backing this up with facts. Don't just say  "No, you're wrong, I'm right." If you believe it matters, explain why. Otherwise you really are adding nothing to this discussion.

Why don't you go back and read all of my posts before making idiotic statement such as this, or are you just too lazy to read them all??

I did read your posts. That still means that just saying 'It does.' adds nothing to the discussion.

I'm tiring of constant repetition.

[Bratt1204]

Xandurpein wrote...

@Bratt1204 and everyone else who posted here

To give credit where it's due and preserve the good humor. Thank you all for a nice and stimulating debate. If I managed to sound a bit harsh or too sure of myself I apologize. Let's keep it nice shall we.

Spoken as a true gentleman. 

[Carmen_Willow]

If Landsmeet = Parliment in England, then Ferelden can "fire their royal bloodline" as Parliment did with the Stuarts (James II was deposed and William of Orange was elected as the new King).

In actuality, marrying Alistair to Anora most resembles the marriage of Henry VII to Elizabeth of York. The marriage ended the War of the Roses (between Lancaster and York) and instituted the Tudor dynasty. Since Henry's claim to the throne was spurious at best (distaff side and with a bastard ancestor) his marriage to the legitimate princess of the house of York was seen as necessary to cement his dynasty and end the civil war. It worked, and only the fact that his sons weren't very fertile caused his dynasty to die out.

That is why my Cousland has no problem marrying Alistair and Anora off to one another. They each need the other to keep the country in line and turn it toward the true enemy, The Blight.

Modifié par Carmen_Willow, 26 avril 2010 - 04:51 .

[Xandurpein]

Carmen_Willow wrote...

If Landsmeet = Parliment in England, then Ferelden can "fire their royal bloodline" as Parliment did with the Stuarts (James II was deposed and William of Orange was elected as the new King).

In actuality, marrying Alistair to Anora most resembles the marriage of Henry VII to Elizabeth of York. The marriage ended the War of the Roses (between Lancaster and York) and instituted the Tudor dynasty. Since Henry's claim to the throne was spurious at best (distaff side and with a bastard ancestor) his marriage to the legitimate princess of the house of York was seen as necessary to cement his dynasty and end the civil war. It worked, and only the fact that his sons weren't very fertile caused his dynasty to die out.

That is why my Cousland has no problem marrying Alistair and Anora off to one another. They each need the other to keep the country in line and turn it toward the true enemy, The Blight.

It would make sense as Loghain seems arguably to be modelled partly on Shakespear's Richard III. Although I would imagine that the real Henry VII was probably a lot closer to Anora than Alistair in temperament.

[Vespasian 91]

A bit off topic but would Anora not be a Cousland if your Cousland married?

[Apophis2412]

Rebellion99 wrote...

A bit off topic but would Anora not be a Cousland if your Cousland married?

Probably yes. And that wouldn strengthen the Cousland's claim to the throne after the death of Anora and your character.

[Korva]

Why would Anora become a Cousland? She is the monarch, you're just the consort. Her family name would take precedence. Likewise, if a female Warden marries Alistair, she would become a Theirin, not he a Cousland, because he is the monarch.

Modifié par Korva, 26 avril 2010 - 07:10 .

[Sarah1281]

Korva wrote...

Why would Anora become a Cousland? She is the monarch, you're just the consort. Her family name would take precedence. Likewise, if a female Warden marries Alistair, she would become a Theirin, not he a Cousland, because he is the monarch.

Well, the whole point of her marrying a Cousland is to gain that added sense of being a legitimate noble which has hurt her cause in the past. Anora isn't a Mac Tir at that point anyway: she's a Theirin. If she becomes a Cousland then it makes her sound more official.

[Vespasian 91]

Korva wrote...

Why would Anora become a Cousland? She is the monarch, you're just the consort. Her family name would take precedence. Likewise, if a female Warden marries Alistair, she would become a Theirin, not he a Cousland, because he is the monarch.

I was just wondering because when a man an woman get married the woman takes the mans second name (most of the time the man can take the womans second name) i was just wondering if that happend in DA

Modifié par Rebellion99, 26 avril 2010 - 07:44 .

[Korva]

Ferelden seems to be quite gender-equal so my bet would be that it is purely a matter of rank. The holder of a title or a designated heir to a title would always keep their surname and make their spouse part of their family. If two people who are either both heirs or both non-heirs get married, the partner whose family is higher up on the social ladder would keep their surname (royalty trumps teyrn, teyrn trumps arl, arl trumps bann).

For example, if Anora had married a male Cousland PC instead of Cailan, the Cousland kid would have become a MacTir. Both are children of teyrns, but Anora is her father's heir (there is no mention of any other children) while the PC is not. If a female Cousland kid had married Bann Teagan (who has some fangirls squeeing for just that, it seems), she would have become a Guerrin despite coming from the higher-ranking family because, again, she is not the heir or holder of the teyrnir while Teagan is a bann in his own right.

I wonder what would happen if both partners and their families have the same rank, such as one bann's heir marrying another bann's heir. Would the older, richer or more respected family take precedence? Would it be an issue to be haggled over in the marriage contract? Would both keep their name and their estates separate -- but then what determines which of their children inherits which title?

[Xandurpein]

Korva wrote...

Ferelden seems to be quite gender-equal so my bet would be that it is purely a matter of rank. The holder of a title or a designated heir to a title would always keep their surname and make their spouse part of their family. If two people who are either both heirs or both non-heirs get married, the partner whose family is higher up on the social ladder would keep their surname (royalty trumps teyrn, teyrn trumps arl, arl trumps bann).

For example, if Anora had married a male Cousland PC instead of Cailan, the Cousland kid would have become a MacTir. Both are children of teyrns, but Anora is her father's heir (there is no mention of any other children) while the PC is not. If a female Cousland kid had married Bann Teagan (who has some fangirls squeeing for just that, it seems), she would have become a Guerrin despite coming from the higher-ranking family because, again, she is not the heir or holder of the teyrnir while Teagan is a bann in his own right.

I wonder what would happen if both partners and their families have the same rank, such as one bann's heir marrying another bann's heir. Would the older, richer or more respected family take precedence? Would it be an issue to be haggled over in the marriage contract? Would both keep their name and their estates separate -- but then what determines which of their children inherits which title?

I definetly think that if a male Cousland gets a child with Anora the kid will become a MacTir to ensure the new line is established properly. Now whether the Prince becomes a MacTir too or not is certainly an interesting question. I would guess so, but I'm not at all sure.

On a side note. It's recently become more an more common here in Sweden that married couples both take the woman's family name. Taking the man's family name is still the norm, but it's not that uncommon to do it the other way around.

[Korva]

Sarah1281 wrote...
Well, the whole point of her marrying a Cousland is to gain that added sense of being a legitimate noble which has hurt her cause in the past. Anora isn't a Mac Tir at that point anyway: she's a Theirin. If she becomes a Cousland then it makes her sound more official.

I doubt Anora would give up her name. She is the monarch. Sure, having a husband from one of the oldest families in Ferelden would cement her position. But since she makes it so very clear that she will not be pushed into a husband's shadow again, taking on the name of someone who isn't even co-regent but "merely" her consort could very easily be considered a sign of weakness. I see her as someone who would very much want to avoid that. (That pride and desire to be independent is one of the few  aspects of her that I actually like.) If she marries Alistair, Theirin is the only name that makes sense for the couple, of course.


I'm actually wondering what she would want to call herself once she becomes the reigning queen, alone or with the Warden as consort: MacTir or Theirin? Since she's such a daddy's girl and wants to stand strong on her own merits instead of a husband's, I was thinking she might want to go back to being a MacTir, especially if Loghain survives or dies as a hero. But the Theirin name does carry a lot of weight and respect, and it was the fact of being Cailan's widow that let her make a bid for the throne. So I suppose she'd stay a Theirin even if she might prefer her father's name. Either choice could potentially tick off some of the nobles, though. Some could grouse that she has no Theirin blood and thus no true right to keep the name when founding her own dynasty. Others could grumble about how it is a provocation to prefer the name of a base-born traitor (especially if Loghain was executed at the Landsmeet) over the respected name of her poor dead husband.

Modifié par Korva, 26 avril 2010 - 08:46 .

[Xandurpein]

Korva wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
Well, the whole point of her marrying a Cousland is to gain that added sense of being a legitimate noble which has hurt her cause in the past. Anora isn't a Mac Tir at that point anyway: she's a Theirin. If she becomes a Cousland then it makes her sound more official.

I doubt Anora would give up her name. She is the monarch. Sure, having a husband from one of the oldest families in Ferelden would cement her position. But since she makes it so very clear that she will not be pushed into a husband's shadow again, taking on the name of someone who isn't even co-regent but "merely" her consort could very easily be considered a sign of weakness. I see her as someone who would very much want to avoid that. (That pride and desire to be independent is one of the few  aspects of her that I actually like.) If she marries Alistair, Theirin is the only name that makes sense for the couple, of course.


I'm actually wondering what she would want to call herself once she becomes the reigning queen, alone or with the Warden as consort: MacTir or Theirin? Since she's such a daddy's girl, I was thinking she might want to go back to being a MacTi. But the Theirin name does carry a lot of weight and respect, and it was the fact of being Cailan's widow that let her make a bid for the throne. So I suppose she'd stay a Theirin even if she might prefer her father's name. Either choice could potentially tick off some of the nobles, though. Some could grouse that she has no Theirin blood and thus no true right to keep the name when founding her own dynasty. Others could grumble about how it is a provocation to prefer the name of a base-born traitor (especially if Loghain was executed at the Landsmeet) over the respected name of her poor dead husband.

I think we can at least agree on that in the end Anora will choose the name that best suits her purpose without much sentimentality.

[Korva]

That we can agree on, yep!