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[KnightofPhoenix]

Several threads about the question of the monarchy have led me to think about the issue. I wish to list all possible outcomes and see the pros and cons for each, in both short and long terms. I though I would make a new thread, as posting this in the already established threads would be a big tangent. This could also serve as a guide for people not sure what to pick.

Things to keep in mind of Ferelden's systems.
The kingdom was united only with Calenhad and had remained united under Therein blood, even under Orlesian occupation. The Therein is a very powerful symbol and claim to the throne that was created by them in the first place.
However, another point to remember is that the Therein king is supposed to act like a pseudo "first amongst equals" vis a vis the nobility, especially the two Teyrns. So while the Therein bloodline was always important, they never had real absolute control over the kingdom like I would presume the Orlesian Imperial dynasty does.  
Furthermore, despite the strength of Therein claim, the Landsmeet has shown itself willing to back a non-Therein to the throne. Although this might be due to Alistair's status as unrecognized bastard.

To explain the dynamics of inheritance. Only those of Therein blood have direct claim to the throne. However since Cailan had no direct heir and since Alistair is unrecognized, Anora, being the Queen Consort, has the strongest claim to the throne. Once Alistair is recognised, they basically have equal claim in practise. Anora being the widow of the prievous king, in addition to be considered a good ruler by the nobility. Alistair, despite his lineage, is unrecognized by Maric, has no experience and is a Grey Warden (A Warden king is a precedent. Even the Wardens in the Anderfels only rule de facto and not as kings).

Which brings us to the options and my assessement of each.

I- Alistair rules alone.

This is what Eamon suggests, claiming that the Therein bloodline, which has united Ferelden for centuries, must be preserved ahnd must continue to rule. However, Alistair, even if hardened, lacks the experience and the will (even when hardened, he isn't really excited about this) to rule. The theory is that Eamon would be his chancellor, while Alistair mostly becomes a firgurehead (that is less so when hardened, but he doesn't exercise that much power either). The epilogue mentions Alistair being popular, but nothing really spectacular, even with the help of a chancellor.

I think however that the greatest strength of this option is the preservation of the Therein bloodline (which is Eamon's entire point, I do not think he actually has that much faith in Alistair as a person, he just wants the blood preserved). When choosing the Monarch, one must consider the future of the Monarchy in the long run and not only in the few coming decades. Even if Alistair is not remarkable as king, the stability of the monarchy would be assured with the continuation of the Therein bloodline. 
I do not consider Alistair to be a great king (he is a popular one though), but this option is worth pondering about, if only to ensure longevity and stability.

II- Anora rules alone.

This is almost the opposite of the first option. Anora has strong claim to the throne for being Cailan's widow and for having experience and skill recognised by the nobility. So Anora's rule is not graveously threatened by challengers (even if Alistair is not executed, the rebellion in his name is crushed). Anora is a succesful ruler who can handle herself. In addition, her reign is a very productive and prosperous one. Which isn't a surprise, as Empress Celene I herself thought highly of Anora.
Anora's skills are not in question and her policies of expanding upon trade and establishing a university are truly in Ferelden's benefit. If there is anyone who could pull Ferelden from its present backwardness and weakness compared to others, it's Anora.

But, if Anora's rule is more impressive than Alistair, it also lacks the Therein line's longevity and stability. Creating a new Mac Tirian royal line is difficult as it is, but that's not the real problem. The real problem is that Anora seems to be barren (nothing is confirmed yet, but it's strongly hinted at). To make matters worse, Anora refuses to marry anyone who doesn't equal her father. So the question is. What will happen when Anora dies?

If she has no heir to the throne and if Alistair is executed or is drunk somewhere, who would inherit her? That is a potential recipee for disaster. Without a proper ruler, Ferelden would plunge into civil war (that's the whole point of origins). So unless Anora's reforms are so succesful that they somehow make Fereldans a mature people (which a doubt, things like that take many decades and perhaps centuries), chances are the moanrchy would be in deep **** when Anora dies without any heir whatsoever.

This could be remedied however, if Alistair (if he is not made king and Loghain is killed) produces children, whom could have claim to the throne for being Thereins. So the optimal outcome for those who prefer Anora as queen, is to keep Alistair alive if only to insure that there is a therein bloodline left that could inherit Anora (that's assuming Alistair is willing to have kids of course).  

III- The medium / compromise. Anora and Alistair ruling together. 

At first glance, this seems perfect. Anora's genius is matched with Alistair's bloodline.
However, there exist several problems with this. 

Both Anora and Alistair are Queen and King regent. In otherwords, both have the exact same power. Which means no one can overrule the other. While that might be seen as checks and balances, from another perspective that creates a serious potnetial stagnation point, where no decision can be made because the Moanrchs basically "veto" each other. 

This might be alleviated if Anora and Alistair can get along. Alistair's popularity and good spiritness could be complemeted by Anora's policial genuis and management skills. But they cannot complement each other if they are not willing to do so. Alistair and Anora will have a pretty hard time liking one another, if only for one reason and that is Loghain. If Loghain is dead, Alistair is happy, but Anora would be pissed (she idolises her father tremendously). If Loghain lives or died a hero, Anora is happy, but Alistair would be pissed (he hates the man tremendously). So that alone is a very existant source of conflict.
In addition, if Alistair is hardened, he is willing to challenge Anora on "her turf". Making the problem of cooperation and complimentarity even more apparent. 
Also, if Anora is truly barren, Alistair would have to produce an heir elsewhere, further alienating Anora (who obviously will not like that).

This can lead to two outcomes (simplified).
Either the Monarchy would be too constrained and bogged down by infighting amongst the royal couple that it won't achieve anything. And it will have to deal with the problem of succession if Anora is barren (or simply unwilling to have sex with Alsitair, though I think she is more mature than this, she would do it only for the sake of Ferelden).  
Or, and that potentially the worst outcome, it degenerates into civil war. Anora has supporters and so does Alistair (his uncles for one). If the two monarchs can't get along, then civil war might break out (the chances are slim though, but this possible outcome must be taken into consideration). 

With all that taken into consideration, this option doesn't seem to be as perfect as it is in theory. Indeed, the epilogue didn't mention anything spectacular going on. 
An optimal outcome for this option seems to necessitate an unhardened Alistair, who would not challenge Anora, thus give her the space she needs to maneuvre and put her skills into good use. But Loghain will have to die in the Landsmeet and that definately will not bode well for Anora. 
For this option to work, Alistair and Anora must get along somehow and that is not assured to say the least, but that is the topic of another thread.
So this option doesn't really seem to guarantee a success like Anora ruling by herself, nor long term longevity like Alistair ruling by himself (potential conflict between Alistair and Anora, problem of succession). 

IV- Alistair ruling with Cousland Queen-Consort.

Alistair rules as King with a Queen Consort by his side (Loghain must die). This option surpasses those mentioned before in terms of potential. If the chemistry between the two rulers is good (as in romanced), the two monarchs can complement and support each other magnificiently. There would be no real foreseable source of conflict between the two. Decision should flow smoothly and with no real problems. And a hardened and unhardened Alistair does not seem to make a lot of difference though. Just makes sure Alistair is either uninterested in polics and sad about being king, or trying to be more involved. A hardened Alsitair should not be a problem for the couple if they are close.

However, important things to remember.
This really depends on the HNF herself. If she is inexperienced in politics and has no clue what she is doing, then the duo will problably be mediocre, as politics is not Alistair's fortee. If the HNF is plitically brilliant, then this would be much better than the Anora / Alsitair duo. 
However, the epilogue doesn't mention anything spectacular about their performance either (this doesn't have to be of much significance. Just pointing this out).

Also, the problem of succession must be delt with. Two wardens cannot concieve a child. That will mean that the HNF must be willing to let Alistair concieve an illegitimate child.  Now you might say, that if the HNF had no problem letting Alistair reproduce with Morriganb, then she should have no problem letting him do so again.
Ignoring the very real and unpredictable female mood swings (), the situation is also different. An HNF might have agreed vis a vis Morrigan because she was leaving and taking the child with her. Aka, Alsitair and Morrigan won't have to see each other and no one would know about the kid. However, for Alistair's bastard to be an heir, he / she has to be recognised and that is a potnetial source of shame for the Queen. That in addition to Alistair having to live close to the woman he impregnated, unles the HNF is willing to take very drastic actions (anythign is possible).

So in short, this duo might be a great thing. However, there is pratically 0% chance of producing an heir (whereas it's not 100% certain that Anora is barren). And the efficiency of the regime depends largely on the female warden's capacities.     
 
V- Anora ruling with Cousland King-Consort.

Anora rules as full Queen, with the Cousland King-Consort (Or Prince-Consort, same thing). Unlike the Alistair / romanced HNF dynamic, this duo puts constraints to the Cousland, as Anora is not enthusiastic about sharing power. This however is not necessarily a problem (except for greedy or impatient Couslands). Nor is it a huge problem for the Moanrchy, as ultimately Anora has the final say and can (and won't hesistate) to overrule the Prince-Consort.  

But, I see a lot of potential in this option that in many ways surpass the Alistair / HNF option, for mostly two reasons.
Anora is a guaranteed political genius (the HNF is not, no offense girls) and she can put her skills into good use. The Prince-Consort, while not guaranteed to be a reat politician (but a good leader), is still pretty much a very abled general and leader of men. If the two can coordinate their efforts and complement each other, which they could, they would create a new Ferelden Golden Age. This is the most optimistic description the epilogue gives. It's pretty much a guarantee that if Anora and Cousland work well together, they can be supremely succesful. This guarantee is not given to Alistair and HNF (even if it is possible), nor to Alistair and Anora (again, this does not have to mean much, but the fact that this epilogue is the most optimistic is telling). That's of course if, and it's a big if, the Cousland is willing to compromise with Anora (and if he is smart, he would).

But also, this option presents a very interesting opportunity. If the Therein bloodline is gone (Alistair is either dead or drunk), there would be no direct challenge to the duo. But that's not the interesting bit. The interesting part is, if Anora is barren and can't concieve, then it would be the Couslands who inherit the throne by default. It could be the Warden Cousland, or a son of his or even a nephew. This option guarantees that the Couslands would practically assume power IF Anora is barren. That's definately an interesting possibility. If one is interested in taking the Couslands to new high levels. My Cousland plans to have his God Child become his heir one of these days. At least he hopes so. 

There are problems of ocurse, namely that Anora and Cousland need to get alont. If the Cousland is smart and politically astute, this can be done via compriomise, but also via leverage instruments. The Cousland Prince has an immsense reputation and popularity that syurpasses that of Loghain after the River Dane, so that's a leverage. The Prince Consort is also the General of Ferelden's armies, which can also be used as leverage. And, the Cosuland can also request to be Teyrn of Gwaren at the same time. If he does so, then the two Ternirs of Gwaren and Highever are basically possessed by Couslands, one of which is also Prince Consort. This is a HUGE amount of power, as the 2 Teyrns are the most powerful men in Ferelden after the Queen (I think it's useless to request being Chancellor, as Anora will exercise her power without need of consultation). All these instruments make sure that Anora cannot ignore her husband nor can she eliminate him. And that's not to mention being Commander of the Grey and Arl of Amaranthine. (a HNF could also have all these titles, but she wouldn't need them as Alistair wouldn't challenge her as Anora would a male Cousland).

A smart Cousland, who is satisfied with the tremendous power he already has, would play smooth with Anora and try to cooperate. this would be the greatest outcome for Ferelden that we know of. And it might present the greatest opportunity of the Couslands to assume the throne if Anora does not concieve a child. This would be the optimal outcome for this option.


  
When taking all these into account, I believe that the best options are options V and IV. Option II gives Ferelden great benefits both short term and long term (trade, university), but the problem of succession threatens the regime and the monarchy. Option I seems to be fine if unspectacular, but it seems to possess longevity and stability. Option III has a lot of complications and can degenrate into civil war

Sorry for the long post. What do you guys think? 
And if I missed anything, please feel free to discuss it.

EDIT: I found out that a Cousland can marry Anora, but stil have Alsitair alive and Loghain killed. 
 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 avril 2010 - 05:37 .

[rak72]

Option 1 - probably the only one with a chance for an heir.

Option III - I wouldn't advise this if you are a HNF in love with him, sacrificing your love for the sake of an heir (thoes two are not going to be popping out any little Therins)

Option IV - My favorite, probably no heir, but I'll be putting in a good word for Fergus everyday

Option V - I think your God-Child might be Flemeth

[Raiil]

I tend to think that Anora or Alistair ruling alone is the best option. There is no jockeying for power with their consorts, both have something great to add to the kingdom, and what they lack can be augmented with outside help.





I've put Alistair on the throne twice, one as a HFN who married him and once as a mage who stayed on as his chancellor/mistress. Of the two options, I thought the second was the most agreeable. I didn't particularly like the idea of my mage being a 'kept' woman, but she and Alistair loved one another and since Anora betrayed her, she found her untrustworthy. Staying on with Alistair gave him the benefit not just of a lover, but of a best friend who would look out for his best interest. Even better, she's outside the political system and would gain nothing from the machinations because her only ties to the nobility is through her King/lover/best friend, making her that much more difficult to corrupt. Every other time I've set Anora up alone and left her to her own devices. She knows the ropes and as far as my PC was concerned, she felt that Anora loved Ferelden enough to do right by it.



Having a single king or queen also presents another option, one that isn't tied to their consort's house. I find it spectacularly difficult to believe that for the entire span of the Calenhad rule, each ruler has only had one child. Surely some had multiple children, who were married into other houses. That bloodline can be traced, and brought back into the fold. Doing this as a single king/queen or chancellor/friend/mistress of the king/queen allows you to find the suitable heir that's so needed without making it look like a power grab in trying to promote, say, Fergus if you're the Human Noble. There would be a myriad of choices and frees up the ruler from trying to have an heir or marrying for political purposes.

[Nonvita]

Just to throw a few things to consider in there:



1. Anora as single ruler is fine so long as you don't care about the elves. Although she builds the university and is the best for economic prosperity, she also continues to oppress and ignore suffering in the elven Alienage. So, while her rule may come with the most "positives," there are serious negatives to consider as well.



Also, as you mentioned, Anora ruling alone would probably be the least likely scenario to produce an heir. Although you say that a child of Alistair's could potentially take over the throne after her, it seems likely that a large number of problems would complicate the matter. Why would the nobles accept the son of a bastard child who they didn't accept in the first place? Might there be other actors who have gained some connection to the throne who would not easily forgo it? A civil war erupting once again does not actually seem so unlikely in that scenario.



2. Alistair and an HNF ruling together has some benefits you didn't mention. Just like the HNM/Anora marriage, the HNF can become Teyrna of Gwaren, giving pretty much the same amount of power to the Couslands as an HNM can achieve. Furthermore, a non-romantic marriage between Alistair and an HNF can be a stronger option than you say. If the HNF is politically astute, this puts Alistair in charge of the armies with the HNF ruling. In a purely political marriage, Alistair clearly allows the HNF to take the lead, so there is still not a struggle for power between the two.



As well, in terms of an heir between the two, both Alistair and the HNF are able to potentially create an heir on their own (Alistair's could be acknowledged as a bastard heir, or that information could be kept secret somehow, and an heir through the HNF could simply be claimed to be Alistair's--there's no DNA testing in Ferelden). While it could cause a scandal if people found out that an heir was not created by the two together, it has the highest potential of achieving an heir if properly kept secret. Especially in a purely political marriage between the two, there would not be the emotional difficulties accompanying such infidelity, so that adds another plus to the political marriage over a romantic one.



3. As for the HNM/Anora marriage, your ideas are pretty well accurate so long as the HNM is willing to hand power over to Anora. Personally, it seems a little unlikely. Especially since the epilogue card does note that the two struggle for power amongst themselves, it seems the potential pitfalls may be unavoidable.



As well, again, that option is probably less likely to produce an heir than a political HNF/Alistair marriage. Anora seems to be barren, and even if she isn't, she certainly is not going out of her way to do the things necessary to produce an heir. From Awakening it is clear that the HNM and Anora are not having 'romantic' relations, so the only way possible to create an heir in this situation would be through the HNM.





In the end, they're all pretty lousy solutions. It really depends on the Warden as to which is the most acceptable. If you have a politically or militarily intelligent HN, then a political marriage would likely be the best match possible. Otherwise, I would almost argue that Alistair as a single ruler beats out Anora as ruler if only because he is more likely to produce an heir. It also gives you the potential to become chancellor (and if Alistair is unhardened, this can mean a great deal of power).





But hey, I usually just go with whatever persuade option is available (can't resist them!), so don't listen to me. =P

[darkrose]

Interesting analysis. I love talking about this stuff.



IIf you harden Alistair and he rules alone or with Anora, the epilogue states that he surprises many by "studying the art of governance", so it's entirely possible that he does turn out to be a good king. If hardened and he marries Anora, people actually say it's worth it to have ended up with such awesome monarchs. If not hardened, then she contines running things while he's the figurehead, and according to the epilogue, that works pretty well. So according to canon, I and III are both decent choices.



I made my Cousland girl queen and made my Tabris girl Alistair's mistress, and in both cases, I imagine that Alistair mostly does what his (smarter) wife/lover tell him to do. Eamon would quickly find himself out of a job. My Cousland figured that she'd be a good queen, and also that for the Cousland heir to marry Maric's bastard would go a fair way toward strengthening Alistair's position. My Tabris didn't trust Anora any more than her father, and she figured that if she's the power behind the throne, then it will benefit the elves.



As far as the heir thing goes, I think it's important to remember that Alistair only has six months' seniority on you as a Grey Warden. He says that all the Grey Wardens he knows of with kids had them before joining--but how many Grey Wardens does he actually know? And if there really aren't very many female Wardens, maybe the reason he doesn't know about any counterexamples is because there aren't a lot of female Wardens who want to get pregnant.



If Alistair is right, then there's still a solution besides having him get some girl knocked up. DNA testing doesn't exist in Ferelden, after all. If the queen is pregnant, as long as everyone concerned is discreet and you find a guy with the right look, the people will assume that Alistair is the father. My Cousland is thinking Teagan might work. (So would Anders, but then you run the risk of the child being a mage.)



The real choice with Alistair is to harden or not. If you don't, he won't be nearly as effective a king--if you can get him to take the throne in the first place.

[KnightofPhoenix]

rak72 wrote...
Option V - I think your God-Child might be Flemeth

Eum....no.

Valentia X wrote...
Having a single king or queen also presents another option, one that isn't tied to their consort's house. I find it spectacularly difficult to believe that for the entire span of the Calenhad rule, each ruler has only had one child. Surely some had multiple children, who were married into other houses. That bloodline can be traced, and brought back into the fold. Doing this as a single king/queen or chancellor/friend/mistress of the king/queen allows you to find the suitable heir that's so needed without making it look like a power grab in trying to promote, say, Fergus if you're the Human Noble. There would be a myriad of choices and frees up the ruler from trying to have an heir or marrying for political purposes.

While I too find it hard to believe, I think Alistair being the last Therein still something to take into consideration. We have no indication that any other house is linked to the therein bloodline and even if they are, they would be too far to have claim when others are closer to the throne. That doesn't mean it's impossible that there are some who are linked with the Thereins, but we are not given any info on this and no one seems to care that much about it anyways.
The Ladnsmeet does not mind Alistair being executed right in front of them. I do not think they will mind if a new royal family is established, since it was not done via usurpation.
 

Nonvita wrote...
1. Anora as single ruler is fine so long as you don't care about the elves. Although she builds the university and is the best for economic prosperity, she also continues to oppress and ignore suffering in the elven Alienage. So, while her rule may come with the most "positives," there are serious negatives to consider as well.

Also, as you mentioned, Anora ruling alone would probably be the least likely scenario to produce an heir. Although you say that a child of Alistair's could potentially take over the throne after her, it seems likely that a large number of problems would complicate the matter. Why would the nobles accept the son of a bastard child who they didn't accept in the first place? Might there be other actors who have gained some connection to the throne who would not easily forgo it? A civil war erupting once again does not actually seem so unlikely in that scenario.

Right, the elves. Forgot about them, since they are unimportant in the larger scheme ofthings. But yea sure, if one is so concerned about the elves, Anora might not be the best option.

They might accept Alistair's kid to avoid civil war. Alternatively, the kid may be used by one of the factions, if civil war erupts.

Nonvita wrote...
2. Alistair and an HNF ruling together has some benefits you didn't mention. Just like the HNM/Anora marriage, the HNF can become Teyrna of Gwaren, giving pretty much the same amount of power to the Couslands as an HNM can achieve. Furthermore, a non-romantic marriage between Alistair and an HNF can be a stronger option than you say. If the HNF is politically astute, this puts Alistair in charge of the armies with the HNF ruling. In a purely political marriage, Alistair clearly allows the HNF to take the lead, so there is still not a struggle for power between the two.

I did mention it the Gwaren thing and also said that she wouldn't need it as much as a male Cousland, so it's not that important. It is mostly a title by that point and a way to increase Cousland possessions, but it does not have the same implications as for a male Cousland.
And I also said that the success of this duo depends on the HNF herself. Anora is a guaranteed political expert. The HNF is not, that depends on how you RP her.

I did say this option is potentially very good. But the epilogue for Anora . cousland is more optimistic.

Nonvita wrote...
3. As for the HNM/Anora marriage, your ideas are pretty well accurate so long as the HNM is willing to hand power over to Anora. Personally, it seems a little unlikely. Especially since the epilogue card does note that the two struggle for power amongst themselves, it seems the potential pitfalls may be unavoidable.

As well, again, that option is probably less likely to produce an heir than a political HNF/Alistair marriage. Anora seems to be barren, and even if she isn't, she certainly is not going out of her way to do the things necessary to produce an heir. From Awakening it is clear that the HNM and Anora are not having 'romantic' relations, so the only way possible to create an heir in this situation would be through the HNM.

Why is it unlikely? My Cousland is perfectly willing to hand the bureaucratic and administrative power to Anora. She can't take more than that as the HNM has a lot of leverage and pressure tools he could use.
And the Epilogue does NOT say they fight. It says, IF they don't fight, it would be a Golden Age.
Fighting between the Cousland and Anora is possible, but not necessary.

I contend from Awakening that anora is developping some feelings to the Cousland, which may very well transform iunto a romantic relationship. That depends on how good the Cousland is.

darkrose wrote...
IIf you harden Alistair and he rules alone or with Anora, the epilogue states that he surprises many by "studying the art of governance", so it's entirely possible that he does turn out to be a good king. If hardened and he marries Anora, people actually say it's worth it to have ended up with such awesome monarchs. If not hardened, then she contines running things while he's the figurehead, and according to the epilogue, that works pretty well. So according to canon, I and III are both decent choices.

All solutions are, according to canon, decent. But the epilogue doesn't seem to take the long term into consideration. There are too many complicatiosn with option III and I do nto see how they will truly get along.
And even when hardened, Alsitair will not reach Anora's level in terms of efficienyc andskill. So I do not see Alsitair ruling alone to be as prosperous as Anora's reign.

[Addai]

Good analysis, KoP. I would add that another solution in the HNF PC/Alistair situation is that the queen discreetly take a lover and have a child. It would not be Theirin blood, but could be accepted as such more readily than a Theirin bastard would be accepted (see, Alistair). And Cousland blood is nothing to sneeze at.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

Good analysis, KoP. I would add that another solution in the HNF PC/Alistair situation is that the queen discreetly take a lover and have a child. It would not be Theirin blood, but could be accepted as such more readily than a Theirin bastard would be accepted (see, Alistair). And Cousland blood is nothing to sneeze at.

If Alistair is made king, then he is recognised as Maric's son and is no longer a bastard. And his children will defiantely not be considered bastards. So they have a stronger claim to the throne than children of a female Cousland.

Unless the HNF doesn't mind her getting a lover but would kill Alistair if he does lol
Pragmatically though, it's Alistair who should get a lover and reinforce the Therein bloodline.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

If Alistair is made king, then he is recognised as Maric's son and is no longer a bastard. And his children will defiantely not be considered bastards. So they have a stronger claim to the throne than children of a female Cousland.

No one but Loghain challenged who he was, yet his bastard status still made his claim to the throne tenacious (e.g. the gossip chatter, "Have you heard about this bastard of Maric's from Redcliffe?  Are we supposed to be impressed?").  There would probably not be a rival in the next generation as with Anora in-game, however.

Pragmatically though, it's Alistair who should get a lover and reinforce the Therein bloodline.

I don't know why you consider it more pragmatic.  A pregnant queen + Alistair recognizing the child would ensure a smoother succession than an Alistair bastard.  Or, at least, as smooth, so long as the real father was well chosen (discreet, etc.).  But Alistair would have to agree to deceive everyone that the child was a Theirin, and he might not be willing to do that.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

If Alistair is made king, then he is recognised as Maric's son and is no longer a bastard. And his children will defiantely not be considered bastards. So they have a stronger claim to the throne than children of a female Cousland.

No one but Loghain challenged who he was, yet his bastard status still made his claim to the throne tenacious (e.g. the gossip chatter, "Have you heard about this bastard of Maric's from Redcliffe?  Are we supposed to be impressed?").  There would probably not be a rival in the next generation as with Anora in-game, however.

But that was before Alistair was made king. If he is made king, then his bastard status is revoked and he is considered Maric's legitimate son. And his children will not be unrecognised, as long as Alistair recognises them. His children will have to be illegitimate, but they can be recognised (Alistair was not recognised by Maric, that was the biggest point against him).

Pragmatically though, it's Alistair who should get a lover and reinforce the Therein bloodline.

I don't know why you consider it more pragmatic.  A pregnant queen + Alistair recognizing the child would ensure a smoother succession than an Alistair bastard.  Or, at least, as smooth, so long as the real father was well chosen (discreet, etc.).  But Alistair would have to agree to deceive everyone that the child was a Theirin, and he might not be willing to do that.

Oh a trick then? Sorry I misunderstood.
Could work, but if the people know that Warden couples cannot concieve children, the couple would be in a huge scandal and the kids would not only be seen as illegitimate, but as fake.

[Thalorin1919]

For Alistair ruling alone hardened, I think he is willing to be king. I never really got the impression he didnt want to be king when he was hardened, and in the Landsmeet he demands you that you make him king.



And with that, you dont seem to have much faith in him. Anora's epilogue card ruling alone is basically all that she will do. It takes a long time to build a university, increase trade, etc. With Alistair's card I believe it shows maybe the first couple months of his ruling. Overtime I think he can do things as good as Anora. And I dont think Eamon is as power hungry as you guys make him out to be. When you make yourself Chancellor, he doesnt complain to Alistair or you about it, he is just happy a Theirin is on the throne.



But in my sole opinion. Its best to put a hardened Alistair on the throne by himself. That way he can pick out his own wife, and get an heir. Marrying him to Anora could cause problems, since there is a big chance she is barren. And she wont be pushed aside easily for the sake of an heir when this problem comes up between Alistair and Anora. The only other good option is the HNM marrying Anora. With as you said above, the HNM can provide extensive military leadership throughout Ferelden while Anora can rule. But it also presents the difficult with an heir, with a possibly barren/prude Queen and a Grey Warden.



Overall though it REALLY seems like Bioware is setting up Ferelden for another civil war. There will most likely have to be a new royal line established, most likely being the Couslands if it comes down to it.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Thalorin1919 wrote...
For Alistair ruling alone hardened, I think he is willing to be king. I never really got the impression he didnt want to be king when he was hardened, and in the Landsmeet he demands you that you make him king.

Even when hardened he says "I may not want it. But if that's what it will take to see Loghain brought to justice, then I will do it (become king)". So even when hardened, he is not enthusiastic about it, but adapts and accepts it better than unhardened.

And we are talking about what we do know. Anora's epilogue shows great successes. Alistair's epilogue does not (except of popularity). So believing alistair would be as succesful as Anora is speculation. Possible, but speculation.

And it's not a question of not having enough faith in him. But I do not think he will be like Anora, no. Anora is naturally predisposed to be like this. Alistair isn't and I do not see him becoming a bureaucratic and admnistrative genius like Anora.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 avril 2010 - 02:18 .

[Thalorin1919]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Thalorin1919 wrote...
For Alistair ruling alone hardened, I think he is willing to be king. I never really got the impression he didnt want to be king when he was hardened, and in the Landsmeet he demands you that you make him king.

Even when hardened he says "I may not want it. But if that's what it will take to see Loghain brought to justice, then I will do it (become king)". So even when hardened, he is not enthusiastic about it, but adapts and accepts it better than unhardened.

And we are talking about what we do know. Anora's epilogue shows great successes. Alistair's epilogue does not (except of popularity). So believing alistair would be as succesful as Anora is speculation. Possible, but speculation.

And it's not a question of not having enough faith in him. But I do not think he will be like Anora, no. Anora is naturally predisposed to be like this. Alistair isn't and I do not see him becoming a bureaucratic and admnistrative genius like Anora.

Ehh, Anora was raised to be a genius. She supposedly had the best tutoring and teaching around that Maric and Loghain could get her, while Alistair was out sleeping in the stables. You have to understand that this is all Anora's life has revolved around. But this doesnt mean Alistair wont develop a good understanding of politics and administration overtime, and I think he will turn out to be a good king.

I would like Anora, but its just her tendencies to back-stab people to get what she wants, and her thinking she is always right. Those arent always the greatest people to have on the throne either. Personally I wont put her alone on the throne.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Thalorin1919 wrote...
Ehh, Anora was raised to be a genius. She supposedly had the best tutoring and teaching around that Maric and Loghain could get her, while Alistair was out sleeping in the stables. You have to understand that this is all Anora's life has revolved around. But this doesnt mean Alistair wont develop a good understanding of politics and administration overtime, and I think he will turn out to be a good king. 

Exactly, that's why Anora seems to be better at this than Alistair. Counting on the fact that Alistair may (and he may not) become as good as Anora is stretchy imo. Alistair was not raised for this and at heart, he isnt like this. From the way I see him, he is at heart an adventurer (and that's not to degrade him). But that's just me. I do not see anything in him that makes me believe he can reach Anora's level. If I would choose the first option, it's mostly to preserve the Therein line and be chancellor (in which case, I would keep him unhardened).  

I am not saying Alistair will be a horrible king. He will be decent if hardened and definately much better than Cailan. I do not think however he will be as good or as succesful as Anora. And yea backstabbing is a useful skill, even if it's unsettling (not for me, I think it's hot lol).

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

I think that the question of succession and future stability of the monarchy has been strongly implied that unrest is in the cards, because no matter which combination of rulers you pick, the couples will be less than fertile, as well as possibly unwilling. Whoever rules it really doesn't matter how good or bad the pairing is. It is only a short term solution. In the long term, it seems both the Mac Tir and Therin lines are doomed to extinction, and thus, no matter which pair of monarchs you choose, civil unrest is almost a certainty in the future.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

I think that the question of succession and future stability of the monarchy has been strongly implied that unrest is in the cards, because no matter which combination of rulers you pick, the couples will be less than fertile, as well as possibly unwilling. Whoever rules it really doesn't matter how good or bad the pairing is. It is only a short term solution. In the long term, it seems both the Mac Tir and Therin lines are doomed to extinction, and thus, no matter which pair of monarchs you choose, civil unrest is almost a certainty in the future.

That's what I feel as well. Hence why I think Option V is the best one, as the Couslands can easily assume the throne for themselves. Chances are multiplied if it's a freakin God Cousland that wants to be king (and make his old man proud). Of course that's a big if.

[Korva]

I don't know if I should be amused or irritated by how automatically and matter-of-factly people (in-game and in the fandom) blame Anora for the lack of a royal heir. It takes two to breed. Unlike here on Earth, where women were and are barely considered human beings in many times and places but looked upon as dirt and the cause of evil, Fereldans seem to be quite progressive gender-wise. So why the assumption that the male is perfect and blameless and the female is somehow damaged goods?

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The interesting part is, if Anora is barren and can't concieve, then it would be the Couslands who inherit the throne by default. It could be the Warden Cousland, or a son of his or even a nephew.

No daughter or niece?


I think Alistair ruling alone is the best outcome (and it's my "canon" one). Ideally he should be "hardened", though the process of going about that is abysmally written IMO and not something my character could have done as-is. It should be possible to help him build his self-esteem and confidence throughout the game, instead of a one-shot "kick him when he's already down" moment that I honestly can't imagine as having a positive outcome. Anyway. Alistair is still young and has some twenty years in his prime left to find a good strong wife and produce at least one kid with her, Warden taint or no. But the one crucial fact that helped me choose at the Landsmeet is that Alistair is a good person at heart, while Anora really didn't strike me as such. I don't doubt that she cares for Ferelden in her own way, but for me that wasn't enough. "Ferelden" is no abstract thing, it is people. I know that Alistair cares for people. Anora? Bad impression from start to finish.

I think it's probably, hopefully, easier for a good person to be a decent ruler and leader, than for a power-grabbing manipulator to become a trustworthy and good-hearted person. And for someone who has been treated like dirt and deliberately kept away from learning anything about leadership, Alistair's speeces at the Denerim gates and the Warden's funeral aren't bad. So there is hope.

I never play as a male character, so I don't know how the interaction with a male Cousland and Anora proceeds or "feels". One question: is it only possible to marry Anora if Loghain lives? If not, and he dies, Anora has at least as much
of a reason to dislike the Warden as she does Alistair which would make for a very bad marriage.

Anora ruling alone would be the worst choice in my book, along with Alistair plus female Warden, because of the lack of an heir and the resulting threat of another civil war in 30-40 years. Yes, Anora could maybe adopt some extraordinary young woman or man and groom her/him as her successor and hope the Landsmeet accepts it. And yes, either Alistair or the Warden could spawn a bastard with someone else and pretend it's a legitimate child. But I dislike such deception, and either option comes with two many "buts" that could blow up into a big problem for Ferelden.

Anora plus male Warden strikes me as little better. Just two power-wh*ring egotists struggling for control.

Anora plus Alistair, if they can somehow learn to get along, would be my second best choice -- maybe even the first, were that not such a big "if".

Modifié par Korva, 24 avril 2010 - 03:10 .

[ejoslin]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Good analysis, KoP. I would add that another solution in the HNF PC/Alistair situation is that the queen discreetly take a lover and have a child. It would not be Theirin blood, but could be accepted as such more readily than a Theirin bastard would be accepted (see, Alistair). And Cousland blood is nothing to sneeze at.

If Alistair is made king, then he is recognised as Maric's son and is no longer a bastard. And his children will defiantely not be considered bastards. So they have a stronger claim to the throne than children of a female Cousland.

Unless the HNF doesn't mind her getting a lover but would kill Alistair if he does lol
Pragmatically though, it's Alistair who should get a lover and reinforce the Therein bloodline.

But there is the in-game option of the HNF Queen Cousland having a lover that Alistair knows about, and letting him know that the HNF will be trying to have a child with someone else.

Edit: Having Alistair have a lover is an option as well in this situation, but there's nothing in game that indicates that.

Modifié par ejoslin, 24 avril 2010 - 03:06 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Korva wrote...

I don't know if I should be amused or irritated by how automatically and matter-of-factly people (in-game and in the fandom) blame Anora for the lack of a royal heir. It takes two to breed. Unlike here on Earth, where women were and are barely considered human beings in many times and places but looked upon as dirt and the cause of evil, Fereldans seem to be quite progressive gender-wise. So why the assumption that the male is perfect and blameless and the female is somehow damaged goods?

I did not assume it was matter of fact. I always said IF, which is what the game implies. It could be the case or it could not. Both in-game and out (Awakening), it seems to be hinted at that Anora is barren and it is something to take into consideration.
But I never assumed that it is an established fact.

Korva wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The interesting part is, if Anora is barren and can't concieve, then it would be the Couslands who inherit the throne by default. It could be the Warden Cousland, or a son of his or even a nephew.

No daughter or niece?

Of course, just wrote son and nephew for simplicity's sake.

Korva wrote...
I never play as a male character, so I don't know how the interaction with a male Cousland and Anora proceeds or "feels". One question: is it only possible to marry Anora if Loghain lives? If not, and he dies, Anora has at least as much of a reason to dislike the Warden as she does Alistair which would make for a very bad marriage..

No, it's not possible to marry Anora and kill Loghain.

Korva wrote...
Anora plus male Warden strikes me as little better. Just two power-wh*ring egotists struggling for power.

Again, that is not a necessary outcome. Male Warden and Anora can get along and if they do, they achieve a Golden Age.

[KnightofPhoenix]

ejoslin wrote...
But there is the in-game option of the HNF Queen Cousland having a lover that Alistair knows about, and letting him know that the HNF will be trying to have a child with someone else.

Edit: Having Alistair have a lover is an option as well in this situation, but there's nothing in game that indicates that.

Really? Wow I never knew that.

But that doesn't sound so smart. The kids would not be Thereins and if the people find out that Wardens can't have kids with each other, that would be a royal scandal.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

But that doesn't sound so smart. The kids would not be Thereins and if the people find out that Wardens can't have kids with each other, that would be a royal scandal.

People are willing to believe in happy endings, especially if it means their country will be secure.

It's not a great option and it would take a lot to get Alistair on board, but it's simply another possibility to add to the list of rocks and hard places.

[nos_astra]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
No, it's not possible to marry Anora and kill Loghain.

What? It should be possible. It's a bit tricky because you have to let Alistair kill Loghain (Anora won't marry the man who killed her father) and Alistair shouldn't be hardened (or he will be declared King without the opportunity to choose).

Modifié par klarabella, 24 avril 2010 - 03:23 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

But that doesn't sound so smart. The kids would not be Thereins and if the people find out that Wardens can't have kids with each other, that would be a royal scandal.

People are willing to believe in happy endings, especially if it means their country will be secure.

It's not a great option and it would take a lot to get Alistair on board, but it's simply another possibility to add to the list of rocks and hard places.

There is a heavy risk involved though and people should realise this.

Letting Alistair concieve a child, while it might hurth a HNF emotionally and in reputation, is a much safer option and those children would have a stronger claim to the throne than HNF's kids if they were discovered to not be Thereins.

And from experience, people often do very stupid things that make sure happy endings don't happen.

[KnightofPhoenix]

klarabella wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
No, it's not possible to marry Anora and kill Loghain.

What? It should be possible. It's a bit tricky because you have to let Alistair kill Loghain (Anora won't marry the man who killed her father) and Alistair shouldn't be hardened (or he will be declared King without the opportunity to choose).

Well I am not so sure now. Maybe someone should confirm, as I have never tried that option.

And even still, it would create problems for the couple and is not the optimal condition for Option V.

[Bl1nder]

I wonder how does the different options affect Awakening? I haven't played through all the options presented in the first post, but on my female warrior whos friends with Al but not lovers she dissapeares a few years after the events of Awakening, does becoming Al's lover/queen affect this in anyway? Because if it does that presents a whole new arguments on itself