183 réponses à ce sujet

[Xandurpein]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Still, the optimal condition for Option V is to have Loghain spared (to avoid conflict with Anora).

I would suggest that optimum is Loghain spared and then avoid doing the Dark Ritual and let Loghain die heroically slaying the Archdemon. A living Loghain would porbably not be able to avoid meddling in his daughter's life, with all the delicacy of an elephant in a porcelin store. Although if he lives he will eventually get shipped to Orlais thankfully.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 24 avril 2010 - 04:56 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


It would not, as the Therein line still exists and those kids would not have a stronger claim than if Alistair had kids. Infact, it would look pretty weird if Alistair doesn't try to extend his line. With the presence of a Theirin who is capable of concieving kids, no one has a stronger claim (unless it turns out Alsitair can't convieve any).

Remember, Alistair is a Warden too. In otherwords, low fertility, low chance of making kids. He says this when you are romancing him, as well as when he possibly dumps you after Landsmeet. The same would hold true for a male Warden: also an extremely low chance of concieving kids. Morrigan's ritual works because it involves magic, otherwise, it wouldn't have.

Thus, regardless, Cousland or Therin male, you're still a Warden and still unlikely to pop out any heirs as a female Cousland would.

In the Anora/ Cousland case, the Theirin line is either destroyed or exiled. If Anora can't have kids, then the Cousland's children have the strongest claim to the throne.

Not necessarily. Remember, it is possible to have Alistair do the deed, even if you haven't, thus freeing your Cousland male to marry Anora, while keeping Alistair alive and with you. Alistair is still around and kicking in such a case, which is another possibility.

Could be a special option for the Human noble origin, just like becoming King / Queen Consort is. Not unfeasible.

Furthermore, Morrigan is interested in politics. She says that she studied history and tells the Cousland that she isn't bothered with him marrying Anora, as it's politics which she is famiiar with. In addition, one ending has her infiltrate the Imperial Court of Orlais (which makes Orzammar look like a nice place). If that isn't a testemony of her political skills, then I do not know what is.

Sure, Morrigan's ambitions may extend well beyond a pathetic kingdom. But that does not mean she wouldn't teach the kid about politics.

Studying and learning about such things is one thing. Having interest in it is another. Given Morrigan's personality and upbringing, it's more likely she learned these things as a necessity for survival. It helps to know your enemy's structure. But personally, beyond a basic knowledge of politics, she never struck me as someone who honestly saw it as anything more than petty, artifical nonsense in the grander scheme of things.

Morrigan's retreat to Orlais is a mystery, as one would wonder what possible motivation she would have to play in the Orlesian court. The only thing I can think of is that it might be a possible ploy to work to undermine the Chantry, since currently, Orlais holds the seat of the Chantry power. It seems more likely that Morrigan's intentions, regardless of choice, have to do with the destruction or humiliation and depowering of the Chantry.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xandurpein wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Still, the optimal condition for Option V is to have Loghain spared (to avoid conflict with Anora).

I would suggest that optimum is Loghain spared and then avoid doing the Dark Ritual and let Loghain die heroically slaying the Archdemon. A living Loghain would porbably not be able to avoid meddling in his daughter's life, with all the delicacy of an elephant in a porcelin store. Although if he lives he will eventually get shipped to Orlais thankfully.

I don't think Loghain would interfer that much. If anything, he seems to be more concerned about the male Cousland than for Anora (he shows this in both Origins and Awakening).
Plus, it would be cool to have him around and call him "dad" lol

But yea the Redeemer ending is great too and gives positive closure to Anora vis a vis her father.

[Raiil]

 While I too find it hard to believe, I think Alistair being the last Therein still something to take into consideration. We have no indication that any other house is linked to the therein bloodline and even if they are, they would be too far to have claim when others are closer to the throne. That doesn't mean it's impossible that there are some who are linked with the Thereins, but we are not given any info on this and no one seems to care that much about it anyways.The Ladnsmeet does not mind Alistair being executed right in front of them. I do not think they will mind if a new royal family is established, since it was not done via usurpation.

In times of war, with no visible heir on the line, yes. But once peace is established and it becomes clear that the odds of Alistair having an heir are (for whatever reason we want to suppose here), if a legitimate heir of the Therein bloodline can be found floating about, they could be introduced early on and people would have the chance to ease into getting to know them. I would gather that the link would be teneous- I'm looking at a situation like the Act of Settlement 1701 in the England, which ultimately ended up putting George 1 on the throne- they ended up skipping over dozens of candidates to pick him (well, his mother until she passed). They probably wouldn't be considered Therein in normal circumstances, but... of course, you're correct in that Alistair may be the last Therein as well, but it's something to be considered.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Thus, regardless, Cousland or Therin male, you're still a Warden and still unlikely to pop out any heirs as a
female Cousland would.

Low chance, but still possible. According to Alistair, two wardens can never do it on the otherhand.
So if Alistair can give birth to kids, it wouldn't make sense for him to allow his wife to do the swame, as it would be moot. Therein kids have a strogner claim.

In the Anora/ Cousland case, the Theirin line is either destroyed or exiled. If Anora can't have kids, then the Cousland's children have the strongest claim to the throne.

Not necessarily. Remember, it is possible to have Alistair do the deed, even if you haven't, thus freeing your Cousland male to marry Anora, while keeping Alistair alive and with you. Alistair is still around and kicking in such a case, which is another possibility.

Yes, as I just found out.

Studying and learning about such things is one thing. Having interest in it is another. Given Morrigan's personality and upbringing, it's more likely she learned these things as a necessity for survival. It helps to know your enemy's structure. But personally, beyond a basic knowledge of politics, she never struck me as someone who honestly saw it as anything more than petty, artifical nonsense in the grander scheme of things.

Morrigan's retreat to Orlais is a mystery, as one would wonder what possible motivation she would have to play in the Orlesian court. The only thing I can think of is that it might be a possible ploy to work to undermine the Chantry, since currently, Orlais holds the seat of the Chantry power. It seems more likely that Morrigan's intentions, regardless of choice, have to do with the destruction or humiliation and depowering of the Chantry.

It is because she sees politics as necessary for survival, that she would develop an interest for them, if only instrumentally. Naturally, she would see all political bs around as just that. That doesn't mean she hates using politics for her own ends and if I know her like I think I do, she would take pleasure in being good at it.

That knowledge can be taught to her son / daughter. So it's not unfeasible to have a God Child that is also politically competent. The thing is would that God Child cares about petty mortal games or not (probably not).

And I've never seen Morrigan as the sort to attack the Chantry just for the sake of it, if she doesn't have an Old God baby. She would probably think it's a waste of time, she couldnt' care less. But we don't know, so it's up for speculation.  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 avril 2010 - 05:12 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...



Low chance, but still possible. According to Alistair, two wardens can never do it on the otherhand.
So if Alistair can give birth to kids, it wouldn't make sense for him to allow his wife to do the swame, as it would be moot. Therein kids have a strogner claim.

If Alistair can give birth to kids, then the taint does alot more to your body than just make you sterile.....

But a Cousland bastard would not likely have much more claim than say, if Anora went off and decided to breed on her own, since you are merely price consort, she's a proper Queen.

It is because she sees politics as necessary for survival, that she would develop an interest for them, if only instrumentally. Naturally, she would see all political bs around as just that. That doesn't mean she hates using politics for her own ends and if I know her like I think I do, she would take pleasure in being good at it.

That knowledge can be taught to her son / daughter. So it's not unfeasible to have a God Child that is also politically competent. The thing is would that God Child cares about petty mortal games or not (probably not).

And I've never seen Morrigan as the sort to attack the Chantry just for the sake of it, if she doesn't have an Old God baby. She would probably think it's a waste of time, she couldnt' care less. But we don't know, so it's up for speculation.  

Attack directly, no. But work to undermine and destroy it, yes. I could see her doing that, if nothing else, to ensure her own survival, and that of the old ways.

In the end, everything in the future is up for speculation, because there are so many possibilities. Who rules, gender and origin of the Warden, whether or not the DR took place, ect....so anything is really possible for the future. The only thing I'm certain of is the uncertanty.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
But a Cousland bastard would not likely have much more claim than say, if Anora went off and decided to breed
on her own, since you are merely price consort, she's a proper Queen.

Yea, but as far as we know, even when she rules solo, she doesn't marry and doesn't bother to produce an heir. Which heavily implies that she knows she is barren.
The chances of Anora being barren are higher than Alistair's.

Attack directly, no. But work to undermine and destroy it, yes. I could see her doing that, if nothing else, to ensure her own survival, and that of the old ways.

In the end, everything in the future is up for speculation, because there are so many possibilities. Who rules, gender and origin of the Warden, whether or not the DR took place, ect....so anything is really possible for the future. The only thing I'm certain of is the uncertanty.

Remember that Morrigan wanted to help the Templars exterminate the Circle. Working against the Templars in this case would have undermined the Chantry, but she didn't want to, as she despises those who give up their freedom willingly even more than the Chantry.

So I do not think she cares, since she probably sees most people as willing slaves. Unless the Chantry finds out what she is, then they would feel her wrath. 

But as much as I love talking abut Morrigan, we're going off a tangent. And like you said, only thing we can be certain of is uncertainty (quoting material lol).
 

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Yep, looks like we're back to my own personal square one: the future of ferelden's monarchy is about as secure as a bottle of extra-strength ethanol within Oghren's reach, or a cookie jar in Stens.



Since this major issue has been heavily hinted as being a no-closure deal, I suspect future DA might have alot to do with ferelden, perhaps with heavier involvement from foreign lands. I have thought out a million possibilities based on little teasers or string bits in the codexes and rumor mill. My guess is, once whatever monarch currently holding the throne kicks the bucket or takes an all expenses paid one way trip to the Deep Roads, that there will be some major plotting, backstabbing, toadying, manipulating, and scheming in the Landsmeet.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
there will be some major plotting, backstabbing, toadying, manipulating, and scheming in the Landsmeet.

When in doubt, use your family mace I'd say.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
there will be some major plotting, backstabbing, toadying, manipulating, and scheming in the Landsmeet.

When in doubt, use your family mace I'd say.

Hey, why not? It's how the last Landsmeet was settled, Civil war halted. Works like a charm.

Interestingly, another possibility in the future could be Teagan or his kids. Eamon's own line is doomed: regardless of what you do with Connor or Isolde, both kids end up as mages. Little chance there.

But Teagon is still a wild card. He himself shows little interest in ruling, however, his offspring might think differently.

There's also the teynr of Gwaren to consider: someone has to take over that title. If you asked for it as a boon, you still aren't going to live long enough to govorn it for any length. Whoever takes over Gwaren becomes a Teyrn, one of only 2 left in the kingdom. The Couslands have been weakened somewhat, Fergus has to rebuild, the younger Cousland either dead or Wardened, and the Couslands fortunes have traditionally been tied in with the crown.

The more I think about it, the bloodier it gets. Get busy, Gaider!

[Thalorin1919]

I think the God child will be out of the question throne wise, even if it is Alistair's.



I think the Old God child will have a plot for just the darkspawn. The Mother in awakening and the Architect say the darkspawn are called to the Old Gods by there "song" - which in turn is put out by there souls. The child will have the soul of an Old God, so the darkspawn will be called too it. I could see a very high chance of all the darkspawn coming to the surface and trying to taint the child, making it into a Archdemon.



I think another reason I forgot to mention earlier that I dont put Anora on the throne is due to the fact she is probably barren. We dont know for sure she is barren, but its highly likely. And she wont be the type of person to be pushed aside from her position as Queen for a new woman to step in for Alistair to create a child. This could pose problems in the future. So thats why I think its always important to throw Alistair on the throne, for he has a better chance of finding a wife who isnt barren and trying to produce an heir there.



Honestly - I see a hardened Alistair doing a decent job of ruling the nation and being popular, and trying to produce an heir with a non-GW wife, so that succession will be alot easier - then putting Anora on the throne in any circumstance. As you have already mentioned KoP - Ferelden lords wont just accept a Cousland king like that, there is bound to be bloodshed. But they will take a son/daughter of Alistair no problem once he dies. But without a an heir of Theirin, and Anora not producing any children, its highly likely Ferelden could just disinegrate back into warring factions unless Fergus Cousland turns out to be very popular, or his children do.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Thalorin1919 wrote...
 As you have already mentioned KoP - Ferelden lords wont just accept a Cousland king like that, there is bound to be bloodshed. But they will take a son/daughter of Alistair no problem once he dies. But without a an heir of Theirin, and Anora not producing any children, its highly likely Ferelden could just disinegrate back into warring factions unless Fergus Cousland turns out to be very popular, or his children do.

That's if Anora rules solo, yes. Although even then a Cousland can ask to be Teyrn of Gwaren, thus making the two Terynirs Cousland possessions, thus making the Cousland extremily powerful.

And that problem is mostly remedied if Anora marries a Cousland. If she is barren, the Cousland could produce his own heirs, Gold child or not. If there is no more Theirins and if Anora doesn't have a direct or even distant heir, the Landsmeet is bound to accept a Cousland as king / queen. Even more so if the Cousland also made sure he becomes Teyrn of Gwaren.

But that solution is non-existant to a non-Cousland.
Which is why I have suggested that Anora's rule is very impressive, but brings uncertainty for the future. While Alistair's reign is not extraordinary, but provides some sense of stability and continuity.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
There's also the teynr of Gwaren to consider: someone has to take over that title. If you asked for it as a boon, you still aren't going to live long enough to govorn it for any length. Whoever takes over Gwaren becomes a Teyrn, one of only 2 left in the kingdom. The Couslands have been weakened somewhat, Fergus has to rebuild, the younger Cousland either dead or Wardened, and the Couslands fortunes have traditionally been tied in with the crown.

Teagan has no real substantial claim to the throne. Fergus, as Teyrn has a much stronger case.

And if the Couslands get Gwaren, they can have one of Fergus' new kids rule over it. So it's not that big a deal. If Fergus can give birth to two kids, Highever and Gwaren are essentially Cousland.

Andt the Cousland still has 20-30 years to live. He can produce his own heirs.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 avril 2010 - 06:03 .

[Xandurpein]

If you think a Cousland out of the picture, then I think it's pretty clear that Alistair and Anora ruling together has looks to be a better choice than either Alistair or Anora alone. Alistair and Anora both bring something to the deal. Anora has political savvy and skills in administration, while Alistair has compassion and people skills, as well as ability to inspire in battle. This is not to say that, for example, Alistair cannot learn any administration skills, just that his will probably never rival Anora's.

The big problem for Alistair and Anora ruling together will probably be communication. Both of them have their personal problems that may occupy them so much that they are unable to see the other's point of view.

This holds an opportunity for a Cousland, either male or female, to fill the role of second partner, but with enough empathy to communicate better with Alistair or Anora. At least as long as they can also duplicate or improve on the skills the part they are 'replacing'.

As the OP suggests a HNM is already pretty much proven in his ability to inspire in battle and have probably displayed some people skills as well, but the latter is not a given really.

I would suggest that a good rule of thumb would be that for a Cousland male to be really succeful, he would need to be respectful to Anora, but also have respect for alistair's abilities. In my opinion a Cousland male who thinks Alistair is just a whining nobody pretty much proves that he does not have the ability to understand people he thinks he have.

By the same token, and I suppose I may antagonize some people by saying this, I think that a female Cousland who is unable to see the political skills Anora possess and tries to trivialize her strong parts, may not really have the political insight needed to replace her.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 24 avril 2010 - 06:11 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

But my point being, is claim or not, the Bannorn still has to make the king, with their support. Who gets Gwaren is up in the air, that's only if your Warden got it as a boon. Highever has been weakened, as has the stability of the kingdom. With an empty throne and no more Therins/Mac Tirs to fill it, I think even Fergus might have a tenuous claim on it, especially with another possible Teyrn from Gwaren, who should be equal in rank.



Teagan's claim would be loosely by marriage. The uncle of the last proper king, through whom Anora was queen. And probably several Banns and Arls could make similar claims.

[Raiil]

Xandurpein wrote...


I would suggest that a good rule of thumb would be that for a Cousland male to be really succeful, he would need to be respectful to Anora, but also have respect for alistair's abilities. In my opinion a Cousland male who thinks Alistair is just a whining nobody pretty much proves that he does not have the ability to understand people he thinks he have.

By the same token, and I suppose I may antagonize some people by saying this, I think that a female Cousland who is unable to see the political skills Anora possess and tries to trivialize her strong parts, may not really have the political insight needed to replace her.

I agree with this completely. Alistair and Anora both have strong points in their favour aside from having the bloodline and being the widow of the King respectively. To gloss over them in favour of Cousland potential is foolhardy.

[Xandurpein]

The theory that the Cousland family might inherit the Crown via Fergus if the spouse of the Monarch is Cousland is based on conjecture. A lot would hinge on Fergus political skills and personal reputation, something we simply lack knowledge of, as he is totally untried as Teyrn last time we hear of him.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 24 avril 2010 - 06:30 .

[Xandurpein]

Valentia X wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...


I would suggest that a good rule of thumb would be that for a Cousland male to be really succeful, he would need to be respectful to Anora, but also have respect for alistair's abilities. In my opinion a Cousland male who thinks Alistair is just a whining nobody pretty much proves that he does not have the ability to understand people he thinks he have.

By the same token, and I suppose I may antagonize some people by saying this, I think that a female Cousland who is unable to see the political skills Anora possess and tries to trivialize her strong parts, may not really have the political insight needed to replace her.

I agree with this completely. Alistair and Anora both have strong points in their favour aside from having the bloodline and being the widow of the King respectively. To gloss over them in favour of Cousland potential is foolhardy.

In principle I agree with the OP. A Cousland who can bring the same skills as Anora or Alistair while at the same time have the ability to communicate effectivly with their spouse and win their affection is probably the best option over all. I was merely suggesting a rule of thumb for determining if the Cousland has even a chance of doing it.

[Nonvita]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Right, the elves. Forgot about them, since they are unimportant in the larger scheme ofthings. But yea sure, if one is so concerned about the elves, Anora might not be the best option.

They might accept Alistair's kid to avoid civil war. Alternatively, the kid may be used by one of the factions, if civil war erupts.

So it's totally irrelevant that Anora's rule causes civil unrest in a faction of the population? Yeah, they're petty, unimportant elves. OK great. It doesn't exactly sound like Anora's reforms help anyone but the already wealthy.

Anora's rule sounds good... for a time. I honestly think it has the worst potential outcomes regarding an heir, though. Too many would know that an heir is not coming for too long a time to not have scheming for the crown.

Furthermore, what kind of heir would Alistair produce in this situation? If Loghain is killed and Alistair remains a Warden, then it's not his place to be having children anyway. If Loghain is spared, Alistair is either killed or becomes a wandering drunk. You really think people will accept the child of the drunken bastard child of Maric who was never given the throne in the first place? Highly unlikely, even to stop civil war.

I did mention it the Gwaren thing and also said that she wouldn't need it as much as a male Cousland, so it's not that important. It is mostly a title by that point and a way to increase Cousland possessions, but it does not have the same implications as for a male Cousland.
And I also said that the success of this duo depends on the HNF herself. Anora is a guaranteed political expert. The HNF is not, that depends on how you RP her.

I did say this option is potentially very good. But the epilogue for Anora . cousland is more optimistic.

Why does it have different implications for M!Cousland? Because he doesn't hold power over Anora, so it would be his true domain? (This is an honest question)

Why is it unlikely? My Cousland is perfectly willing to hand the bureaucratic and administrative power to Anora. She can't take more than that as the HNM has a lot of leverage and pressure tools he could use.
And the Epilogue does NOT say they fight. It says, IF they don't fight, it would be a Golden Age.
Fighting between the Cousland and Anora is possible, but not necessary.

I contend from Awakening that anora is developping some feelings to the Cousland, which may very well transform iunto a romantic relationship. That depends on how good the Cousland is.

So it depends on the HNM just like Alistair/HNF success depends on the HNF. They are both potentially good options so long as your HN fits the qualities needed to make it successful. The Alistair/HNF marriage doesn't go into as much detail about what happens because in that case it may well be the HNF doing most of the politics (as opposed to Anora in the lead with the HNM), in which case it is up to the player to imagine the outcome.


I still think that Alistair as sole rule would be better in the long run due to the heir issue. Anora's reforms may be good overall, but the likelihood that the **** will hit the fan later on is just too much to ignore.


Also, the HNF having a child in an HNF/Alistair marriage is not so unlikely as you say. Not only does the possibility already arise in-game, but it seems a natural option so long as the HNF can hide that she has lovers. Once she gets pregnant, no one can say for sure that the child is not Alistair's, so as long as he claims it as his own it seems just as likely to be accepted as an Alistair bastard child. If she's smart, she'll find a blonde to father the child . This gives the marriage two possible chances at producing an heir rather than one.


And like I said, all the arrangements are crap in the end. They'll all lead to problems of one form or another down the line.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Nonvita wrote...
So it's totally irrelevant that Anora's rule causes civil unrest in a faction of the population? Yeah, they're petty, unimportant elves. OK great. It doesn't exactly sound like Anora's reforms help anyone but the already wealthy.

Anora's rule sounds good... for a time. I honestly think it has the worst potential outcomes regarding an heir, though. Too many would know that an heir is not coming for too long a time to not have scheming for the crown.

A very tiny faction of the population that has proven itself to be mostly irrelevent in the larger scheme of things (this is not an assement of their worth as living beings. But the wellfare of Ferelden doe not depend on the elves, angry or not). Besides, the attempt at violent uprising would be crushed by Anora and the elves would be brought back to heel. The elf incident is minor.

Anora's rule is marked with trade expansion and a university, which I have argued is necessary for the creation of a strong middle class. A prerequisite for potential liberalisation in the future. Anora's regime may not last long, but if her work is preserved, the benefits she brought to Ferelden would.

I did mention it the Gwaren thing and also said that she wouldn't need it as much as a male Cousland, so it's not that important. It is mostly a title by that point and a way to increase Cousland possessions, but it does not have the same implications as for a male Cousland.
And I also said that the success of this duo depends on the HNF herself. Anora is a guaranteed political expert. The HNF is not, that depends on how you RP her.

I did say this option is potentially very good. But the epilogue for Anora . cousland is more optimistic.

Why does it have different implications for M!Cousland? Because he doesn't hold power over Anora, so it would be his true domain? (This is an honest question)

So he can use it as leverage, if Anora decides to ignore her husband. A Prince-Consort can be ignored. But the General of Ferelden's Armies, Commander of the Grey, Arl of Amaranthine, Teyrn of Gwaren and brother to the Teryn of Highever AND Prince-Consort can not be ignored and his views will have to be taken into account.

A female Cousland doesn't need all this because she doesn't need to fear alienation from Alsitair. Anora on the otherhand will not share power with much enthusiasm, unless the male Cousland has indirect (and potentially direct) pressure tools.
My Cousland prefers to be nice with Anora and not impose himself on her (only in bed lol), but has all of the above just to make sure she wouldn't get any bright ideas. 

Why is it unlikely? My Cousland is perfectly willing to hand the bureaucratic and administrative power to Anora. She can't take more than that as the HNM has a lot of leverage and pressure tools he could use.
And the Epilogue does NOT say they fight. It says, IF they don't fight, it would be a Golden Age.
Fighting between the Cousland and Anora is possible, but not necessary.

I contend from Awakening that anora is developping some feelings to the Cousland, which may very well transform iunto a romantic relationship. That depends on how good the Cousland is.

So it depends on the HNM just like Alistair/HNF success depends on the HNF. They are both potentially good options so long as your HN fits the qualities needed to make it successful. The Alistair/HNF marriage doesn't go into as much detail about what happens because in that case it may well be the HNF doing most of the politics (as opposed to Anora in the lead with the HNM), in which case it is up to the player to imagine the outcome.

Yes of course, it all depends on the HNF. However we know that Anora is a political genius. The HNF is not guaranteed to be so (she is guaranteed to be a military leader). 
 

[Xandurpein]

Nonvita wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Right, the elves. Forgot about them, since they are unimportant in the larger scheme ofthings. But yea sure, if one is so concerned about the elves, Anora might not be the best option.

They might accept Alistair's kid to avoid civil war. Alternatively, the kid may be used by one of the factions, if civil war erupts.

So it's totally irrelevant that Anora's rule causes civil unrest in a faction of the population? Yeah, they're petty, unimportant elves. OK great. It doesn't exactly sound like Anora's reforms help anyone but the already wealthy.

Anora's rule sounds good... for a time. I honestly think it has the worst potential outcomes regarding an heir, though. Too many would know that an heir is not coming for too long a time to not have scheming for the crown.

In general I stand by my assessment. If you downplay or ignore Anora's administrative skill, then you are proving that you don't understand them. At the same time I agree with you that it is not possible to have any discussion about what is the 'best' option unless you can agree upon what 'good' and 'best' is. KOP seems to equate good rule with economic progress and a strong country able to defend itself. In that respect the elves are a relativly minor issue. If you do not agree with him and think other things, such as equality and a racial fairness are more important then you might reach a different conclusion. 

Let me however point out that there is no proof that Anora is particularily bad in treating the elves. All we know is that there is a food riot and, at the risk of sounding callous, a food riot is really a minor thing in the larger scheme of things. It's certainly true that Anora is worse than Alistair in people skills and thinks more in terms of progress than fairness. I think however that you are making a mistake if you think Anora represents short term good at the expense of the long term good. If anything, her rule represents focus on the future. Building a university is investing in the long term prosperity of the Country.

[Nonvita]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Anora's rule is marked with trade expansion and a university, which I have argued is necessary for the creation of a strong middle class. A prerequisite for potential liberalisation in the future. Anora's regime may not last long, but if her work is preserved, the benefits she brought to Ferelden would.

True. But I wouldn't count on her work being preserved if the heir issue turns into a big problem, which it likely would. Like I said, her reforms are good, but it's the most likely case to cause huge problems later on, so it's not guaranteed to be the best option.

So he can use it as leverage, if Anora decides to ignore her husband. A Prince-Consort can be ignored. But the General of Ferelden's Armies, Commander of the Grey, Arl of Amaranthine, Teyrn of Gwaren and brother to the Teryn of Highever AND Prince-Consort can not be ignored and his views will have to be taken into account.

A female Cousland doesn't need all this because she doesn't need to fear alienation from Alsitair. Anora on the otherhand will not share power with much enthusiasm, unless the male Cousland has indirect (and potentially direct) pressure tools.
My Cousland prefers to be nice with Anora and not impose himself on her (only in bed lol), but has all of the above just to make sure she wouldn't get any bright ideas. 

So it's just leverage for the HNM? In that case, it's just as good a situation for the HNF. She may not need it for leverage, but she still gets it, and the Cousland family still controls most of Ferelden. The HNM and HNF scenarios come out about equal-- under the assumption that the HN is suitable for the position, which is what you are claiming as well.

Yes of course, it all depends on the HNF. However we know that Anora is a political genius. The HNF is not guaranteed to be so (she is guaranteed to be a military leader). 
 

And it depends on the HNM as to how well the Anora marriage goes. It's the same. Just like you say your HNM is willing to relinquish power to Anora, my HNF is very politically astute and would make a good leader for Ferelden.



Now if you'll excuse me, I am a lover not a fighter. <3

Xandurpein wrote...

Let me however point out that there is
no proof that Anora is particularily bad in treating the elves. All we
know is that there is a food riot and, at the risk of sounding callous, a
food riot is really a minor thing in the larger scheme of things. It's
certainly true that Anora is worse than Alistair in people skills and
thinks more in terms of progress than fairness. I think however that you
are making a mistake if you think Anora represents short term good at
the expense of the long term good. If anything, her rule represents
focus on the future. Building a university is investing in the long term
prosperity of the Country.

My problem with the elf issue is that it shows that Anora is not necessarily capable of handling civil unrest. It may be a minor issue in and of itself, but it does not necessarily bode well for other problems that may arise.

And yes, her focus is on the future. But when you have bloody succession battles, it becomes no longer about what she wants. Her successor would likely have need to cling to their power and may not be so concerned about such matters. There is nothing to guarantee that her reforms will remain in place after she is gone.

Modifié par Nonvita, 24 avril 2010 - 07:24 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Nonvita wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Anora's rule is marked with trade expansion and a university, which I have argued is necessary for the creation of a strong middle class. A prerequisite for potential liberalisation in the future. Anora's regime may not last long, but if her work is preserved, the benefits she brought to Ferelden would.

True. But I wouldn't count on her work being preserved if the heir issue turns into a big problem, which it likely would. Like I said, her reforms are good, but it's the most likely case to cause huge problems later on, so it's not guaranteed to be the best option.

Yes that is the main problem with Anora's rule, as I have argued. Spot on.

So he can use it as leverage, if Anora decides to ignore her husband. A Prince-Consort can be ignored. But the General of Ferelden's Armies, Commander of the Grey, Arl of Amaranthine, Teyrn of Gwaren and brother to the Teryn of Highever AND Prince-Consort can not be ignored and his views will have to be taken into account.

A female Cousland doesn't need all this because she doesn't need to fear alienation from Alsitair. Anora on the otherhand will not share power with much enthusiasm, unless the male Cousland has indirect (and potentially direct) pressure tools.
My Cousland prefers to be nice with Anora and not impose himself on her (only in bed lol), but has all of the above just to make sure she wouldn't get any bright ideas. 

So it's just leverage for the HNM? In that case, it's just as good a situation for the HNF. She may not need it for leverage, but she still gets it, and the Cousland family still controls most of Ferelden. The HNM and HNF scenarios come out about equal-- under the assumption that the HN is suitable for the position, which is what you are claiming as well.

Of course, she can still get it and benefit from it. But like I said, it has slightly different implications for one who has married Anora.
And yes, that all depends on the HN.

Yes of course, it all depends on the HNF. However we know that Anora is a political genius. The HNF is not guaranteed to be so (she is guaranteed to be a military leader). 
 

And it depends on the HNM as to how well the Anora marriage goes. It's the same. Just like you say your HNM is willing to relinquish power to Anora, my HNF is very politically astute and would make a good leader for Ferelden.

Now if you'll excuse me, I am a lover not a fighter. <3

Definately, I never said otherwise. And I never accused your HNM to be politically incompetent, I am pretty sure she is not. But in assessing those two options objectively and in general, one has to take into account that the HNs are not guaranteed to be good politicians.  
That wouldn't be much of a problem for a Cousland / Anora couple, because Anora is a good polirtician and the Cousland is a good military leader. It would be somewhat more problematic for HNF / Alistair, since Alistair, even when hardened, does not possess Anora's political skills.

And I am sure you are

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 avril 2010 - 07:30 .

[ejoslin]

But in the human noble origin, it IS stated that it is well known that HN would be better suited for Tyern(a) than Fergus, though Dairren may be just sucking up. Also, the HN is being left in charge of Highever, even mom is being sent away, so there must be some reason Bryce trusts the HN to care for the Teyrnir while he's gone.



I think political competence is a safe assumption unless you roleplay it differently.

[Nonvita]

I would also like to point out that whoever said the HN is guaranteed to be a good military commander... hasn't met Princess.

[KnightofPhoenix]

ejoslin wrote...

But in the human noble origin, it IS stated that it is well known that HN would be better suited for Tyern(a) than Fergus, though Dairren may be just sucking up. Also, the HN is being left in charge of Highever, even mom is being sent away, so there must be some reason Bryce trusts the HN to care for the Teyrnir while he's gone.

I think political competence is a safe assumption unless you roleplay it differently.

Well yea I wouldn't think a Cousland would be completely incompetent. But that doesn't mean that this particular Cousland HAS to be as good as Anora, who was raised and groomed to be Queen. I am not saying it's impossible, but it's not necessary for a Cousland to be a political genius.