183 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

master-fluff wrote...

Re. faking an heir with Zevran/Leliana. How does Zevran or Leliana feel about being used in this way ? Would they be happy to relinquish all parental rights to their child/children and be ok with handing them over to Alistair/Anora ? What of their hopes to raise a family one day ? And what will the offspring be told, if anything ?

Whilst the plan might sound good initially, I think it stinks for the biological-but-secret parent and the child. I foresee many heartbreaking issues here with lots of opportunity for everything to turn extremely sour. At least with adoption or surrogacy with someone who's not in love with the king/queen, things should be a little more workable.

There is an even bigger problem. It's almost an established fact (as far as we know) that two wardens cannot concieve. This plot will immediately cast doubt upon the legitimacy of the children.

And if the plot is discovered, then not only will the children be seen as fake, but the mother will be seen as a liar and forgerer trying to usurp the throne and put her own children in power. And Alistair would be seen as a weak king who can't even expand his bloodline and has to resort to trickery to secure a succession.
 
I do not think the Landsmeet would appreciate such plots.
About adoption. I do think that the importance of bloodline was still paramount in Ferelden. So I am nto sue they would have an open mid vis a vis adoption. We don't know that for sure, but it doesn't seem likely they would be ok with just adoption. Otherwise, Eamon would not have asked cailan to marry someone other than Anora and would have told him to just adopt.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 avril 2010 - 10:43 .

[ejoslin]

Hmmmm, then Alistair + BannBimbo it is with Queenie Cousland wishing them well (and perhaps grooming the superior bloodlines to swoop in).

[master-fluff]

Ejoslin, I think maybe you're right that it might work better with Leliana giving up her child to Anora. I doubt Anora would be that interested in being a mother and Leliana could be the child's 'nanny', assuming she could stomach the lifelong deception.



Alistair on the other hand would probably want to be a very active dad (someone once posted that he would be the sort to love having a toddler ride on his shoulders and the picture of that feels so right). I can't see him being ok with 'his' kid living away from him and being raised by 'uncle' Zevran. Also I think Zevran is man enough not to bend to everything his lover asks and would meekly be part of this deception. Zevran is quite moral in many ways and is nobody's fool.

[master-fluff]

Gah.  Hit "Quote" button when I should have hit "Edit".  Please ignore my atrocious grammar in previous post  

Modifié par master-fluff, 24 avril 2010 - 10:26 .

[ejoslin]

master-fluff wrote...

Ejoslin, I think maybe you're right that it might work better with Leliana giving up her child to Anora. I doubt Anora would be that interested in being a mother and Leliana could be the child's 'nanny', assuming she could stomach the lifelong deception.

Alistair on the other hand would probably want to be a very active dad (someone once posted that he would be the sort to love having a toddler ride on his shoulders and the picture of that feels so right). I can't see him being ok with 'his' kid living away from him and being raised by 'uncle' Zevran. Also I think Zevran is man enough not to bend to everything his lover asks and would meekly be part of this deception. Zevran is quite moral in many ways and is nobody's fool.

You can establish it in game that you're going to be trying to have a child with someone else to Alistair, however, and in a purely political marriage, there's no way that Alistair would begin to believe that the child is his.  Plus of course Zevran accepts staying with the Warden as long as the marriage IS political. All kidding aside (and I hope you realize that a lot of what I say is tongue in cheek), I don't think it would be a situation of anyone actually being fooled.  

Edit: You really don't have to defend Zevran to me!  I agree that if any child were produced, he wouldn't accept he or she being made a political pawn.  However, if later on down the line an heir was needed (Ali and BannBimbo being very unlucky) there would be a convenient heir.

Modifié par ejoslin, 24 avril 2010 - 10:29 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

ejoslin wrote...

Hmmmm, then Alistair + BannBimbo it is with Queenie Cousland wishing them well (and perhaps grooming the superior bloodlines to swoop in).

That would be a better and less risking solution. But it still has problems.

A- the children are not legitimate. I don't think illegitimate children would automatically have full right to assume the throne. If it were the case, Cailan could have very easily concieved an illegitimate child, but Eamon is telling him to marry. That doesn't mean illegitimate children have no case. Maric afterall had to unrecognise Alistair to make sure he wouldn't have a claim against Cailan.

B- The reputation of the female Cousland Queen will be hurt. She probably will become subject of folklore jokes. Maybe she will be seen as unnecessary for the Monarchy.
Perhaps these are not practical concerns, but it will take a strong Queen to be able to live through this.  

[Nonvita]

I agree with ejoslin- it's not so much a matter of actually convincing anyone that the child is Alistair's as it is keeping up appearances of it all. If Queen Cousland gets has a child that Alistair claims as his own, who is to truly say that the child is not his so long as the true father is kept secret? They have no paternity tests in Ferelden, so it would simply be empty accusations.



As for Zevran or Leliana not wanting the child raised for the throne, yes it sucks. But they do go into it understanding the situation and agreeing to it. For Zevran, at least, I think he'd accept the situation for what it is--he certainly doesn't hold any illusions about politics, and even if the situation sucks it's still better than what he could have had. For Leliana, as said, the child would obviously be hers, so the Cousland bastard child wouldn't be different than an Alistair bastard child.



And adoption does not really seem like an option. There is too much focus on maintaining the bloodline for it to work. So yes, even though the HN going outside the marriage to produce a child doesn't *actually* keep the bloodline going, it at least lets people believe it does.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Nonvita wrote...

I agree with ejoslin- it's not so much a matter of actually convincing anyone that the child is Alistair's as it is keeping up appearances of it all. If Queen Cousland gets has a child that Alistair claims as his own, who is to truly say that the child is not his so long as the true father is kept secret? They have no paternity tests in Ferelden, so it would simply be empty accusations.

Two Wardens cannot concieve children. That is enough to draw suspicions. And be used as ammunition by potential opponents. And if ther plot is discovered, then the couple would have to face scandal and a Landsmeet that doesn't like to be played for fools. 

I am not saying this plot is impossible to pull off, but it has way too many risks to sound like a good idea for me.  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 avril 2010 - 10:39 .

[Addai]

master-fluff wrote...

Alistair on the other hand would probably want to be a very active dad (someone once posted that he would be the sort to love having a toddler ride on his shoulders and the picture of that feels so right).

That was me. 

I can't see him being ok with 'his' kid living away from him and being raised by 'uncle' Zevran. Also I think Zevran is man enough not to bend to everything his lover asks and would meekly be part of this deception. Zevran is quite moral in many ways and is nobody's fool.

The scenario I was proposing earlier was one where Alistair would knowingly agree to his wife taking a lover, recognizing her child and raising it as their own.  The Alistair we know in-game would probably prefer to cut off a limb than do this, but when they are pushed to it, something is going to have to give and it's at least one possibility on the list of bad ideas to consider.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Two Wardens cannot concieve children. That is enough to draw suspicions. And be used as ammunition by potential opponents. And if ther plot is discovered, then the couple would have to face scandal and a Landsmeet that doesn't like to be played for fools. 

I am not saying this plot is impossible to pull off, but it has way too many risks to sound like a good idea for me.  

A succession is always precarious.  There are risks and drawbacks to every course available to Ferelden's throne.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Two Wardens cannot concieve children. That is enough to draw suspicions. And be used as ammunition by potential opponents. And if ther plot is discovered, then the couple would have to face scandal and a Landsmeet that doesn't like to be played for fools. 

I am not saying this plot is impossible to pull off, but it has way too many risks to sound like a good idea for me.  

A succession is always precarious.  There are risks and drawbacks to every course available to Ferelden's throne.

Of course, but some risks are not worth it or are too dangerous, especially if there are better / less risky alternatives.
Alistair concieving his own children and not lying to the landsmeet like this is a safer solution.

[Xandurpein]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Nonvita wrote...

I agree with ejoslin- it's not so much a matter of actually convincing anyone that the child is Alistair's as it is keeping up appearances of it all. If Queen Cousland gets has a child that Alistair claims as his own, who is to truly say that the child is not his so long as the true father is kept secret? They have no paternity tests in Ferelden, so it would simply be empty accusations.

Two Wardens cannot concieve children. That is enough to draw suspicions. And be used as ammunition by potential opponents. And if ther plot is discovered, then the couple would have to face scandal and a Landsmeet that doesn't like to be played for fools. 

I am not saying this plot is impossible to pull off, but it has way too many risks to sound like a good idea for me.  

I agree. Trying to use force or lies to make Fereldan accept an illegitimate child as Alistair's son is really a very risky proposal, that can easily backfire. It's much safer to adopt a suitable and promising child from a good family, maybe child of Fergus.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Of course, but some risks are not worth it or are too dangerous, especially if there are better / less risky alternatives.
Alistair concieving his own children and not lying to the landsmeet like this is a safer solution.

Then you risk challenges, not only based on the illegitimacy but on the weakness of the ruling pair that it reveals to the entire country.  I doubt highly that the man on the Denerim street knows that two Wardens can't have children, but he understands that a barren queen and a king sleeping around is a bad deal.

[Nonvita]

Xandurpein wrote...

I agree. Trying to use force or lies to make Fereldan accept an illegitimate child as Alistair's son is really a very risky proposal, that can easily backfire. It's much safer to adopt a suitable and promising child from a good family, maybe child of Fergus.

But would an adopted child really be accepted any better? It's quite possible they could be accepted so long as Alistair or the HN is alive, but once they're out of the picture the nobles could just as easily turn against an adopted child.

Not to mention that a bastard child of Alistair's or the HNM's is just as likely to not be accepted.

None of the situations are ideal. With an HNF married to Alistair having a child, if they can get enough people to support their claim that it is indeed Alistair's child, then I think it would more likely be accepted. While people may know that it is incredibly hard for two Wardens to have a child, they can always claim that it's a big surprise and "oh gosh it seems everyone was wrong about it being impossible." At least in that case there's the ability to make it seem real, even if it is a precarious option.

[ejoslin]

You are also forgetting the potential power of the Cousland. We are talking both Teyrnirs in the hands of Couslands -- really, the Couslands are way too powerful for their own good.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Of course, but some risks are not worth it or are too dangerous, especially if there are better / less risky alternatives.
Alistair concieving his own children and not lying to the landsmeet like this is a safer solution.

Then you risk challenges, not only based on the illegitimacy but on the weakness of the ruling pair that it reveals to the entire country.  I doubt highly that the man on the Denerim street knows that two Wardens can't have children, but he understands that a barren queen and a king sleeping around is a bad deal.

I never claimed this solution is challenge free, I just posted some of its drawbacks.
The pair being seen as waek is better than the entire royal line being seen as fake and a forgery. And like I said before, it's really only the Queen who will be hurt. That's bad, but a Strong Queen can live through this.

Nobles on the otherhand probably do know or have a feint idea. At least, the info is easily transmittable.
A thing like this can very easily be used and spread amongst the populace. If I was Emperor of Orlais and I see Ferelden becoming more powerful, that's exactly what I would do. Strike at the legitimacy of the entire Monarchy, by spreading the true accusation that 2 Wardens cannot concieve. The mere rumours will ultimately push everyone, from average joe to nobles to doubt and be suspicious. And if they find out, the entire monarchy is revealed to be built on lies.

[master-fluff]

ejoslin wrote... (with editing for brevity)

.., there's no way that Alistair would begin to believe that the child is his.  Plus of course Zevran accepts staying with the Warden as long as the marriage IS political.

Oh I don't think Alistair would think anything other than it was Zevran's child.  Despite what some may say, Alistair is no fool either.  But if he's to claim the child as his own, I'd bet he'd want to be the one who raises him/her.  And whilst Zev does accept being gigolo, I'm not sure he'd happily walk away from any child that may come from that relationship.  Zevran loves the queen deeply and their child would mean too much to him I think. 

I like to think both Zev and Alistair would be very willing and terrific fathers given their own upbringings.  If I'm right, the outcome of a Zev/Al child deception seems fraught with so many problems.  Dark, dark fantasy indeed

[ejoslin]

master-fluff wrote...

ejoslin wrote... (with editing for brevity)

.., there's no way that Alistair would begin to believe that the child is his.  Plus of course Zevran accepts staying with the Warden as long as the marriage IS political.

Oh I don't think Alistair would think anything other than it was Zevran's child.  Despite what some may say, Alistair is no fool either.  But if he's to claim the child as his own, I'd bet he'd want to be the one who raises him/her.  And whilst Zev does accept being gigolo, I'm not sure he'd happily walk away from any child that may come from that relationship.  Zevran loves the queen deeply and their child would mean too much to him I think. 

I like to think both Zev and Alistair would be very willing and terrific fathers given their own upbringings.  If I'm right, the outcome of a Zev/Al child deception seems fraught with so many problems.  Dark, dark fantasy indeed

Hmmmm, Alistair, I'm not sure if he would, but it's pretty well established what Alistair wants comes second to what Queenie Cousland wants.  Zevran, no way would he walk away from any child from that relationship.  But I don't think I would play a HNF who would even consider that.

You're assuming there would be deception involved.  I don't think there would have to be.  The Warden/princess-consort/Teyrna of Gwaren/much loved ruler would have an unprecedented amount of freedom of action.  

And HUSH all you people trying to ruin my perfect sexytime ending!  *sigh* Off to play a DCF again.  Her baggage is easier to deal with!

Edit: (sitting in the corner and pouting now)

Seriously, we're not talking a modern world with the type of media and scrutiny that there is now.  

Modifié par ejoslin, 24 avril 2010 - 11:00 .

[master-fluff]

Addai67 wrote...

master-fluff wrote...

Alistair on the other hand would probably want to be a very active dad (someone once posted that he would be the sort to love having a toddler ride on his shoulders and the picture of that feels so right).

That was me. 

:wub:I loved that image ! 

I think I fell in love with Alistair a little more when I read it and would so love to see Aimo's take on it.  'Specially her cute baby Aeducan girl.  Ovaries would explode the world over 

(Ok, sorry for fangirling you unexpectedly.  I'll clear up the mess.)

Modifié par master-fluff, 24 avril 2010 - 11:32 .

[darkrose]

Korva wrote...

But the one crucial fact that helped me choose at the Landsmeet is that Alistair is a good person at heart, while Anora really didn't strike me as such. I don't doubt that she cares for Ferelden in her own way, but for me that wasn't enough. "Ferelden" is no abstract thing, it is people. I know that Alistair cares for people. Anora? Bad impression from start to finish.

Agreed. What struck me most during my City Elf playthrough was that Anora honestly seemed to have no clue why the elves in the Alienage might be inclined to riot. She's nice to her elven maid, and it's not like they're slaves, so what's their problem? And Alistair's point later is quite valid: like her father, Anora thinks that she's the only one who's capable of doing what needs to be done. That arrogance is a big part of why Ferelden is in the mess it's in at that point.

[darkrose]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Anora remembers her past as a peasant's girl and is not ashamed of it. If anything, she has a stronger connection to the people than Alistair (lived in Templar barracks) and a Cousland (depends on how you RP him though).

Anora has no past as a peasant's girl. Yes, her parents were commoners by birth, but she was raised and educated as a teryn's daughter. She spent time at the palace with her father's best friend, the king, and was promised to the crown prince at an early age. Alistair's the exact opposite.

As far as Anora's connection to the people, again, it depends on which people we're talking about. Certainly she doesn't have any connection to the people on the bottom of the social hierarchy--namely, the elves. At least Cailan admits his ignorance; Anora simply doesn't see the problem.

[KnightofPhoenix]

darkrose wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Anora remembers her past as a peasant's girl and is not ashamed of it. If anything, she has a stronger connection to the people than Alistair (lived in Templar barracks) and a Cousland (depends on how you RP him though).

Anora has no past as a peasant's girl. Yes, her parents were commoners by birth, but she was raised and educated as a teryn's daughter. She spent time at the palace with her father's best friend, the king, and was promised to the crown prince at an early age. Alistair's the exact opposite.

As far as Anora's connection to the people, again, it depends on which people we're talking about. Certainly she doesn't have any connection to the people on the bottom of the social hierarchy--namely, the elves. At least Cailan admits his ignorance; Anora simply doesn't see the problem.

Anora talks about her life in the farmhouse and how Loghain got flowers for his wife. And Loghain talks about her childhood in Gwaren. So she didn't always live in a palace.

Again, the elves, a very tiny minority that doesn't seem to offer much, are not important at all politically speaking and vis a vis Ferelden's general wellfare and progress. There are much more pressing matters for Anora to worry about. Might not be perfect, but the elven problem is a very minor problem. I would much rather have Anora focus on more important things. 

If I am to weight Anora's achievements, with Alistair being nicer to the elves, I would take Anora's policies. But that is just me. You might think the elven problem is so horrific that it needs to be fixed now. I personally see itas a very minor issue in the larger scheme of things. Anora's policies will benefit the larger number of Ferelden society and will contribute in the creation of a strong middle class.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 avril 2010 - 11:58 .

[darkrose]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Low chance, but still possible. According to Alistair, two wardens can never do it on the otherhand.

Again, you're assuming that Alistair knows what he's talking about. He says that "All the Wardens I know who had children had them before joining the order." Given that he's been a Warden for six months longer than you, how many Wardens does he know? And how does he know that low Warden fertility is due to the taint, and not to the fact that women who are potentially going to be on the front lines of battle might not want the complications of pregnancy? Maybe two Wardens having children is possible, under certain conditions. Maybe it's not--but Alistair can't be considered a reliable narrator.

Modifié par darkrose, 24 avril 2010 - 11:57 .