183 réponses à ce sujet

[LadyDamodred]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Hmmmm, then Alistair + BannBimbo it is with Queenie Cousland wishing them well (and perhaps grooming the superior bloodlines to swoop in).

That would be a better and less risking solution. But it still has problems.

A- the children are not legitimate. I don't think illegitimate children would automatically have full right to assume the throne. If it were the case, Cailan could have very easily concieved an illegitimate child, but Eamon is telling him to marry. That doesn't mean illegitimate children have no case. Maric afterall had to unrecognise Alistair to make sure he wouldn't have a claim against Cailan.

B- The reputation of the female Cousland Queen will be hurt. She probably will become subject of folklore jokes. Maybe she will be seen as unnecessary for the Monarchy.
Perhaps these are not practical concerns, but it will take a strong Queen to be able to live through this.  

Were Alistair to recognize any bastard child he has with another woman, I think that would be enough to ensure legitimacy.  From what Loghain tells you, Maric wanted to do that with Alistair, and if he had, Alistair's acension to the throne would have been much smoother.  Marrying is better, yes, but not necessary.

My HNF, once she found out about the low chance of having an heir with Alistair, immediately made plans.  She loves him to death, but she's also very practical.  She would want a few years to try on their own, and then if that fails, she would find someone to have Alistair's kid.  She would make damn sure that that woman understand her place, and that she is not going to be stepping down as queen.  It would also involve a lot of convincing Alistair and 'I'm sorry' sex.

As far as possible outcomes, IV and V are not always options for everyone.  I will consider them equal, since while M!Cousland/Anora goes into more detail, it also shows just how badly they can screw things up.  F!Cousland/Alistair show that if nothing else, they are beloved by the people.  We don't know how great their rule can be, but it seems to show they don't fail at it.  Both endings are very much RP based, and I don't think many people will RP it as their Cousland being a fail monarch.

I will consider IV/V better than the other three outcomes, followed by Alistair/Anora, and then the solo rules.  If Alistair is hardened, I would also consider solo Alistair/solo Anora rules to be equal, since they bring very different strengths to the table and both have weaknesses.  In the long run, I think they would balance out.  And as much as I love Alistair, unhardened Alistair is a bad, bad idea, for both him and Ferelden.

And, KoP, hardened Alistair does want to be king.  He will tell you that straight out.  And further more, he wants to be a good king by doing what is best for his country and people.  That includes sacrificing himself knowing Anora is there and that she can do well for the country, too.  It's the reason he does not execute her.  He is very, very practical in that regard.  Just something to keep when we see how quickly Anora moves to ensure she is the only one who can rule. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

darkrose wrote...
Again, you're assuming that Alistair knows what he's talking about. He says that "All the Wardens I know who had children had them before joining the order." Given that he's been a Warden for six months longer than you, how many Wardens does he know? And how does he know that low Warden fertility is due to the taint, and not to the fact that women who are potentially going to be on the front lines of battle might not want the complications of pregnancy? Maybe two Wardens having children is possible, under certain conditions. Maybe it's not--but Alistair can't be considered a reliable narrator.

Gaider confirmed it. Wish I remember where his post was. But I am 100% sure David Gaider confirmed that Alistair is right.

[LadyDamodred]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

darkrose wrote...
Again, you're assuming that Alistair knows what he's talking about. He says that "All the Wardens I know who had children had them before joining the order." Given that he's been a Warden for six months longer than you, how many Wardens does he know? And how does he know that low Warden fertility is due to the taint, and not to the fact that women who are potentially going to be on the front lines of battle might not want the complications of pregnancy? Maybe two Wardens having children is possible, under certain conditions. Maybe it's not--but Alistair can't be considered a reliable narrator.

Gaider confirmed it. Wish I remember where his post was. But I am 100% sure David Gaider confirmed that Alistair is right.

Gaider did confirm it, but says that magical means of producing an heir are not out of the picture.  In a world like DA, "nothing is impossible".

[Herr Uhl]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

darkrose wrote...
Again, you're assuming that Alistair knows what he's talking about. He says that "All the Wardens I know who had children had them before joining the order." Given that he's been a Warden for six months longer than you, how many Wardens does he know? And how does he know that low Warden fertility is due to the taint, and not to the fact that women who are potentially going to be on the front lines of battle might not want the complications of pregnancy? Maybe two Wardens having children is possible, under certain conditions. Maybe it's not--but Alistair can't be considered a reliable narrator.

Gaider confirmed it. Wish I remember where his post was. But I am 100% sure David Gaider confirmed that Alistair is right.

There has never been one. He didn't say that they can't but it is very heavily implied, and the probability of that happening outside of fanfic is awfully low.

Edit: adds quote so you can judge yourselves

David Gaider wrote...

I'll point out that Alistair does bring this up, and in fact breaks up with a female player because he feels it's his duty to bear children -- unless she convinces him that there are more important things, like being happy.

If being able to marry the man you love is insufficient because you must also bear his children in order for you to be happy, then sure. I guess you'll be unhappy -- barring some kind of unforeseen circumstance occuring. 

And my second post was not a pat-pat on the poster's head to make her feel better... there are always ways that these sorts of rules can get circumvented. Alistair did not, after all, say to you "two Grey Wardens cannot have children, except for the extremely rare possibility of them recovering the Holy Elixir of Saradesh or somehow purging their blood of the taint through unknown sorts of blood magic... but normally? Not a chance."

As far as anyone (including Alistair) knows, under normal circumstances two Grey Wardens cannot have children with each other. I didn't mention unknown exceptions because they're unknown -- that should just be assumed. And that's just the way it is.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 25 avril 2010 - 12:05 .

[Nonvita]

LadyDamodred wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Gaider confirmed it. Wish I remember where his post was. But I am 100% sure David Gaider confirmed that Alistair is right.

Gaider did confirm it, but says that magical means of producing an heir are not out of the picture.  In a world like DA, "nothing is impossible".

I think he gave an example of a joke medicine for that, though. (Wish I remembered where the post was, either.) It's a "possibility," but one that even he seemed to find highly unlikely.

I'm with Knight on this one--Ali/Warden baby ain't gonna happen, unfortunately.

[KnightofPhoenix]

LadyDamodred wrote...
As far as possible outcomes, IV and V are not always options for everyone.  I will consider them equal, since while M!Cousland/Anora goes into more detail, it also shows just how badly they can screw things up.  F!Cousland/Alistair show that if nothing else, they are beloved by the people.  We don't know how great their rule can be, but it seems to show they don't fail at it.  Both endings are very much RP based, and I don't think many people will RP it as their Cousland being a fail monarch.

No where does it state that Cousland / Anora fail. It simply says that if they don't fight, it would be a Golden Age. That is all. It never said anything about them failing, even if they fought each other. It would simply not be a Golden Age. It's possible they might fail (like all other options), but it is no where stated in the epilogue.

LadyDamodred wrote...
And, KoP, hardened Alistair does want to be king.  He will tell you that straight out.  And further more, he wants to be a good king by doing what is best for his country and people.  That includes sacrificing himself knowing Anora is there and that she can do well for the country, too.  It's the reason he does not execute her.  He is very, very practical in that regard.  Just something to keep when we see how quickly Anora moves to ensure she is the only one who can rule. 

He still pulled the "I don't want to be king, but I will to kill Loghain" statement even when hardened. He doesn't seem enthusiastic about it.

And I agree that Alsitair deciding to spare Anora is probably the smartest thing he did, but it's not fair to compare that to Anora. Alistair was goiing to fight on the field and risk his life. Anora was not. So Alistair needed to have a "backup" Queen and Anora doesn't.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 25 avril 2010 - 12:08 .

[LadyDamodred]

Nonvita wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Gaider confirmed it. Wish I remember where his post was. But I am 100% sure David Gaider confirmed that Alistair is right.

Gaider did confirm it, but says that magical means of producing an heir are not out of the picture.  In a world like DA, "nothing is impossible".

I think he gave an example of a joke medicine for that, though. (Wish I remembered where the post was, either.) It's a "possibility," but one that even he seemed to find highly unlikely.

I'm with Knight on this one--Ali/Warden baby ain't gonna happen, unfortunately.

Yes, I know.  But we can always hope.  

[LadyDamodred]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...
And, KoP, hardened Alistair does want to be king.  He will tell you that straight out.  And further more, he wants to be a good king by doing what is best for his country and people.  That includes sacrificing himself knowing Anora is there and that she can do well for the country, too.  It's the reason he does not execute her.  He is very, very practical in that regard.  Just something to keep when we see how quickly Anora moves to ensure she is the only one who can rule. 

He still pulled the "I don't want to be king, but I will to kill Loghain" statement even when hardened. I doesn't seem enthusiastic about it.

And I agree that Alsitair deciding to spare anora is probably the smartest thing he did, but it's not fair to comapre that to Anora. Alistair was goiing to fight on the field and risk his life. Anora was not. So Alistair needed to have a "backup" Queen and Anora doesn't.

You know, that's something that bugs me about the game.  There are some slight inconsistancies with lines like that.  It happens in other places, too, so it's not restricted to just that situation.  It's probably due to them not being able to out in all possible options, but once he's hardened, he really shouldn't come out with the 'I don't want to' AND 'I want to' lines.  Hardening him should close off the 'I don't want to' lines of dialogue.  :/

[darkrose]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Two Wardens cannot concieve children. That is enough to draw suspicions.  

Let's assume that Alistair is right on this one.

How would anyone in Ferelden know? Until Maric, there haven't been any Wardens in Ferelden for 200 years. The only thing people know about the order is that they fight darkspawn, and maybe that they used to ride on griffons until the devs took them away they died out. Even given the way the "secret" Joining ritual is apparently public knowledge in Awakening, most people aren't going to have a clue about Warden fertility.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I never claimed this solution is challenge free, I just posted some of its drawbacks.
The pair being seen as waek is better than the entire royal line being seen as fake and a forgery. And like I said before, it's really only the Queen who will be hurt. That's bad, but a Strong Queen can live through this.

I would respectfully dispute that only the queen would be hurt.  The monarchy and the nation would be weakened.  At the risk of preening on behalf of my HNF PC, the Warden Queen- the Hero of Ferelden- is poised to gain the kind of legendary status that Maric himself had, especially if she not only defeats the archdemon but goes on to exploits like saving Amaranthine.  To have it be known that her king is stepping out on her, or else to have her abdicate and allow him to marry someone else (another possibility my HNF would put on the rock/hard place roster), would be very unpopular.

Edit:  A femCousland could mitigate this, of course, if she publicly accepts the bastard and even raises him at court.

Modifié par Addai67, 25 avril 2010 - 12:17 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ DL, yea you're probably right.

darkrose wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Two Wardens cannot concieve children. That is enough to draw suspicions.  

Let's assume that Alistair is right on this one.

How would anyone in Ferelden know? Until Maric, there haven't been any Wardens in Ferelden for 200 years. The only thing people know about the order is that they fight darkspawn, and maybe that they used to ride on griffons until the devs took them away they died out. Even given the way the "secret" Joining ritual is apparently public knowledge in Awakening, most people aren't going to have a clue about Warden fertility.

Information is not hard to spread.

If I was Emperor of Orlais and Ferelden is bothering me, I would strike at the very legitimacy of the Monarchy, by spreading this information to the populace and the nobility (seeing how Wardens are active in the Imperial Court, I am sure I can know about Warden infertility). And with those rumours being spread, suspicion and doubt wil naturally arise, until the nobility and the landsmeet seek calrification. And if the plot is discovered, the entire legitimacy of the monarchy and of the couple is jeopordised.

Again, I am not saying that this plot is impossible to pull off. But all you need is someone like me ruling next door Orlais and that plot is screwed. And that is but one possible scenario.

I personally see the risks as too great. But that's just me. You may think that the risk is worth it.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 25 avril 2010 - 12:21 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I never claimed this solution is challenge free, I just posted some of its drawbacks.
The pair being seen as waek is better than the entire royal line being seen as fake and a forgery. And like I said before, it's really only the Queen who will be hurt. That's bad, but a Strong Queen can live through this.

I would respectfully dispute that only the queen would be hurt.  The monarchy and the nation would be weakened.  At the risk of preening on behalf of my HNF PC, the Warden Queen- the Hero of Ferelden- is poised to gain the kind of legendary status that Maric himself had, especially if she not only defeats the archdemon but goes on to exploits like saving Amaranthine.  To have it be known that her king is stepping out on her, or else to have her abdicate and allow him to marry someone else (another possibility my HNF would put on the rock/hard place roster), would be very unpopular.

Edit:  A femCousland could mitigate this, of course, if she publicly accepts the bastard and even raises him at court.

Everyone knew how Cailan was acting, with his mistresses. It may have been unpopular, buyt Cailan's reign was not bothered by this.
It is precisely because the Queen has a great reputation that she will not be unpopular and certainly not enough for the people to want her to leave. Furthermore, she could declare that she personally gave Alistair permission, so it wouldn't look like he stepped on her (which he is not anyways).

The potential unpopularity of this solution (and it would be minor and forgotten with time) is much lesser than the scandal that would insue if Alistair and the Queen decided to lie to the landsmeet and base their new line on a forgery.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 25 avril 2010 - 12:25 .

[Nonvita]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

But all you need is someone like me ruling next door Orlais and that plot is screwed.

That can't be the only thing that would be screwed in such an event.


(You know for once I actually didn't mean that as innuendo... Huh.)

[darkrose]

Nonvita wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...

Gaider did confirm it, but says that magical means of producing an heir are not out of the picture.  In a world like DA, "nothing is impossible".

I think he gave an example of a joke medicine for that, though. (Wish I remembered where the post was, either.) It's a "possibility," but one that even he seemed to find highly unlikely.

I'm with Knight on this one--Ali/Warden baby ain't gonna happen, unfortunately.

Fair enough--I wasn't aware that the Word of God had ruled on this.

I still think it's easy enough to come up with an explanation that fits in canon. You've got a healer in your party who has incredible power beyond that of most mages. Or maybe there was an unexpected side effect of Avernus's potion. Hell, maybe you find Fiona and get someone to reverse-engineer whatever removed the taint from her. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Nonvita wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

But all you need is someone like me ruling next door Orlais and that plot is screwed.

That can't be the only thing that would be screwed in such an event.


(You know for once I actually didn't mean that as innuendo... Huh.)

I know, Ferelden in general would be screwed

[Nonvita]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Nonvita wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

But all you need is someone like me ruling next door Orlais and that plot is screwed.

That can't be the only thing that would be screwed in such an event.


(You know for once I actually didn't mean that as innuendo... Huh.)

I know, Ferelden in general would be screwed

Yes. You'd screw the men especially... who get sent off to battle.

Re: Ali/Warden baby. It can happen in fanfic or your own dreams of how things play out. If, however, they ever did an expansion, etc based around the Fereldan throne, then I doubt any magical fertility drug will come into play.

[darkrose]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Information is not hard to spread.

If I was Emperor of Orlais and Ferelden is bothering me, I would strike at the very legitimacy of the Monarchy, by spreading this information to the populace and the nobility (seeing how Wardens are active in the Imperial Court, I am sure I can know about Warden infertility). And with those rumours being spread, suspicion and doubt wil naturally arise, until the nobility and the landsmeet seek calrification. And if the plot is discovered, the entire legitimacy of the monarchy and of the couple is jeopordised.

Again, I am not saying that this plot is impossible to pull off. But all you need is someone like me ruling next door Orlais and that plot is screwed. And that is but one possible scenario.

I personally see the risks as too great. But that's just me. You may think that the risk is worth it.

I see if as fairly low risk. So the Orlesian Emperor is making snide claims about the legitimacy of the Ferelden monarchy? Why should anyone in Ferelden care, or not dismiss it as more Orlesian treachery? If the queen is seen to be pregnant, and the king and the biological father are both willing to go along with it, there's no way (outside of some spell)  to prove paternity. 

The real problem here is that there's a disconnect between what we know and what the characters know. My Cousland doesn't know that Dave confirmed that Alistair's right. All she knows is that she and Alistair make a good team, and that adding the Cousland name to that of an illegitimate Theirin would do a lot to shore up Alistair's position. So from her POV, it's a win-win. As far as speculating on Ferelden's future from a meta POV, well, in the end, it's going to be whatever the devs feel will work best for the direction they want to go in, and if it means completely Jossing existing canon, that's what'll happen.

[nos_astra]

Nonvita wrote...
Re: Ali/Warden baby. It can happen in fanfic or your own dreams of how things play out. If, however, they ever did an expansion, etc based around the Fereldan throne, then I doubt any magical fertility drug will come into play.

If they ever adress the issue again, it's most likely that there will be no heir - no matter who is on the throne.

[LadyDamodred]

Nonvita wrote...
Re: Ali/Warden baby. It can happen in fanfic or your own dreams of how things play out. If, however, they ever did an expansion, etc based around the Fereldan throne, then I doubt any magical fertility drug will come into play.

Agreed.  And while my fanfic allows me to indulge that fantasy, I would actually be sort of upset if, in an expansion, my HNF and Alistair had a baby without a damn good reason for it.  If it gives me a damn good reason, great!  But if not, please do not do that to the game lore just to please some fans.

[Nonvita]

Agreed, klarabella and LD. I'd rather see it play out that way, as well. (But that doesn't mean we can't still all argue the intricacies of every possible scenario. XD)

[darkrose]

Nonvita wrote...

Re: Ali/Warden baby. It can happen in fanfic or your own dreams of how things play out. If, however, they ever did an expansion, etc based around the Fereldan throne, then I doubt any magical fertility drug will come into play.

Isn't this all speculation? The devs will do what works for their story. If it means magical fertility drugs, then that's what'll happen. If it means allowing you to import a character you killed off in the previous installment, that that's what'll happen. If it works for them to have a character that you were flirting with in part 1 turn out to be your sibling in part 2, then that's how it'll play out. Anything we say in this thread may--and probably will--be completely contradicted down the line. It's fun to speculate on, but speculation is all it is at this point.

Modifié par darkrose, 25 avril 2010 - 12:41 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

darkrose wrote...
I see if as fairly low risk. So the Orlesian Emperor is making snide claims about the legitimacy of the Ferelden monarchy? Why should anyone in Ferelden care, or not dismiss it as more Orlesian treachery? If the queen is seen to be pregnant, and the king and the biological father are both willing to go along with it, there's no way (outside of some spell)  to prove paternity. 

The real problem here is that there's a disconnect between what we know and what the characters know. My Cousland doesn't know that Dave confirmed that Alistair's right. All she knows is that she and Alistair make a good team, and that adding the Cousland name to that of an illegitimate Theirin would do a lot to shore up Alistair's position. So from her POV, it's a win-win. As far as speculating on Ferelden's future from a meta POV, well, in the end, it's going to be whatever the devs feel will work best for the direction they want to go in, and if it means completely Jossing existing canon, that's what'll happen.

You misunderstood, the Orlesian Emperor doesn't have to officially say any of this. Just spread information subtly. Plus, you assume that the nobility know nothing about the Wardens, which is proven to be untrue. Some of them know a lot about the Warden.The infertility of the Wardens doesn't seem to be that big a secret, so anyone can know that really. So it is a big risk to assume that no one knows and no one will ever know that Wardens can't concieve.

I never argued against your Cousland's POV, but Alistair told her that two wardens concieving is not possible. So unless she doesn't believe him (wishful thinking perhaps), I see no reason why this Cousland should count on the fact that she could have a kid with Alistair.

[Nonvita]

darkrose wrote...

Nonvita wrote...

Re: Ali/Warden baby. It can happen in fanfic or your own dreams of how things play out. If, however, they ever did an expansion, etc based around the Fereldan throne, then I doubt any magical fertility drug will come into play.

Isn't this all speculation? The devs will do what works for their story. If it means magical fertility drugs, then that's what'll happen. If it means allowing you to import a character you killed off in the previous installment, that that's what'll happen. If it works for them to have a character that you were flirting with in part 1 turn out to be your sibling in part 2, then that's how it'll play out. Anything we say in this thread may--and probably will--be completely contradicted down the line. It's fun to speculate on, but speculation is all it is at this point.

If you want to speculate about what the Devs will actually do, then I can almost guarantee you there will be no heir. Why? Because there will be no heir for no one. Why? Because that way they don't have to make a bunch of different variables to account for whether or not anyone has a child. It would be the same for everyone, thus requiring fewer resources and less time to create.

So yes, of course we're all speculating. That's all any of this is anyway, since they may not even make a sequel about the throne, so trying to figure out who rules best is pointless in and of itself. Doesn't mean it's not still interesting, however.

[ejoslin]

Though couldn't the Orlesian Emperor do something similar anyway? Yes, propaganda can be extremely effective, but wouldn't it be just as easy to spread rumors that Grey Wardens are completely sterile?

[KnightofPhoenix]

ejoslin wrote...

Though couldn't the Orlesian Emperor do something similar anyway? Yes, propaganda can be extremely effective, but wouldn't it be just as easy to spread rumors that Grey Wardens are completely sterile?

In which case, all my Cousland will need is an envoy from Weisphaut to prove that's not the case. And there are plenty of Wardens who have kids and are married (Kristoff is an example. The warden in the mine is another).
So it will nto be difficult to prove the fallacy of such accusations.

It will be much harder however to "prove" that two wardens can concieve, while it never happened before. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 25 avril 2010 - 12:52 .