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[darkrose]

[quote]KnightofPhoenix wrote...

You misunderstood, the Orlesian Emperor doesn't have to officially say any of this. Just spread information subtly.[/quote]

Of course it wouldn't be official, but look how much traction Loghain got out of, "This is all an Orlesian plot". The memories of the occupation are still fresh enough that if you told many Fereldens that the someone--maybe an Orlesian--said it was a nice day, there'd be a run on umbrellas in the Denerim marketplace.The information can go out, but if there's a semi-reasonable counter to it, it's easy enough to dismiss. 


[quote]Plus, you assume that the nobility know nothing about the Wardens, which is proven to be untrue. Some of them know a lot about the Warden.The infertility of the Wardens doesn't seem to be that big a secret, so anyone can know that really. So it is a big risk to assume that no one knows and no one will ever know that Wardens can't concieve.[/quote]

It's not so much a secret as it is something that no one outside of the Wardens is likely to care about. Why should they? At least until you get to Awakening, the Joining is a secret. The fact that Wardens have the darkspawn taint is not common knowledge, as far as I'm aware. So there aren't a lot of Warden kids. Why would there be? Why would anyone connect the fact that members of an order of warriors tend not to have children with anything other than "they don't have time or energy to deal with raising kids"?

[quote]I never argued against your Cousland's POV, but Alistair told her that two wardens concieving is not possible. So unless she doesn't believe him (wishful thinking perhaps), I see no reason why this Cousland should count on the fact that she could have a kid with Alistair. [/quote]

Alistair tells her that "it might not be possible". And honestly, she thinks he's a dear boy, and not as dumb as he pretends to be, but he's still not necessarily the sharpest sword on the rack. She'd definitely want to have that statement corrobarated--possible at some point when she's not thinking,  "Can we get this done so we can deal with the archdemon, and worry about heirs once we know that there's still going to be a Ferelden to inherit?" At the point where she's making the decision about putting him on the throne, the only information she has to consider is if he will make a good king, or not.[/quote]

[KnightofPhoenix]

darkrose wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

You misunderstood, the Orlesian Emperor doesn't have to officially say any of this. Just spread information subtly.

Of course it wouldn't be official, but look how much traction Loghain got out of, "This is all an Orlesian plot". The memories of the occupation are still fresh enough that if you told many Fereldens that the someone--maybe an Orlesian--said it was a nice day, there'd be a run on umbrellas in the Denerim marketplace.The information can go out, but if there's a semi-reasonable counter to it, it's easy enough to dismiss.

After what happened with Loghain, I am sure Fereldans will change the way they think.
This is ammunition that can be used by any kind of opposition, including Ferelden Nobility.
To assume that no one will ever know is a high risk.

darkrose wrote...
It's not so much a secret as it is something that no one outside of the Wardens is likely to care about. Why should they? At least until you get to Awakening, the Joining is a secret. The fact that Wardens have the darkspawn taint is not common knowledge, as far as I'm aware. So there aren't a lot of Warden kids. Why would there be? Why would anyone connect the fact that members of an order of warriors tend not to have children with anything other than "they don't have time or energy to deal with raising kids"?

When they have two Warden rulers (a precendent), I would bet everyone would care about it.
Such things (based upon reality and not lies) can very easily be spread and everyone can know about them.
I do not see how you can dismiss the possibility that people and most importantly the landsmeet would start to question. Especially when there is a safer alternative (letting Alistair concieve his own Theirin kids)

darkrose wrote...
Alistair tells her that "it might not be possible". And honestly, she thinks he's a dear boy, and not as dumb as he pretends to be, but he's still not necessarily the sharpest sword on the rack. She'd definitely want to have that statement corrobarated--possible at some point when she's not thinking,  "Can we get this done so we can deal with the archdemon, and worry about heirs once we know that there's still going to be a Ferelden to inherit?" At the point where she's making the decision about putting him on the throne, the only information she has to consider is if he will make a good king, or not.

Sure, but when she will know that she cannot produce an heir (as Alistair warned her), then she will have deal with it. Creating a lie and plot, while it can work, is too risky for anyone's good. Telling the truth as it is hwoever is safer.

I am not arguing against your Cousland's logic and it's not my intent to tell you that your ending is "bad". I am just telling you the possibility of such a plot turning into a disaster.

[ejoslin]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Though couldn't the Orlesian Emperor do something similar anyway? Yes, propaganda can be extremely effective, but wouldn't it be just as easy to spread rumors that Grey Wardens are completely sterile?

In which case, all my Cousland will need is an envoy from Weisphaut to prove that's not the case. And there are plenty of Wardens who have kids and are married (Kristoff is an example. The warden in the mine is another).
So it will nto be difficult to prove the fallacy of such accusations.

It will be much harder however to "prove" that two wardens can concieve, while it never happened before. 

But if it's being spread by rumor and innuendo, it's not a matter of "proving."  It's a matter of getting people talking.  Any counter-propaganda could be similarly false.  

[KnightofPhoenix]

ejoslin wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Though couldn't the Orlesian Emperor do something similar anyway? Yes, propaganda can be extremely effective, but wouldn't it be just as easy to spread rumors that Grey Wardens are completely sterile?

In which case, all my Cousland will need is an envoy from Weisphaut to prove that's not the case. And there are plenty of Wardens who have kids and are married (Kristoff is an example. The warden in the mine is another).
So it will nto be difficult to prove the fallacy of such accusations.

It will be much harder however to "prove" that two wardens can concieve, while it never happened before. 

But if it's being spread by rumor and innuendo, it's not a matter of "proving."  It's a matter of getting people talking.  Any counter-propaganda could be similarly false.  

An official envoy from the anderfels and examples of Wardens conceiving children is not simple falsified counter-propaganda. It is proof. This only needs to be declared at the Landsmeet and they will know. Beyond that, it will become a minor nuissance.

Again, I did not claim that the 2 warden concieving plot is impossible. It could work, if played properly. BUt the risks cannot be denied.

[ejoslin]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

An official envoy from the anderfels and examples of Wardens conceiving children is not simple falsified counter-propaganda. It is proof. This only needs to be declared at the Landsmeet and they will know. Beyond that, it will become a minor nuissance.

Again, I did not claim that the 2 warden concieving plot is impossible. It could work, if played properly. BUt the risks cannot be denied.

You're assuming there are examples of wardens conceiving children after becoming wardens.  A simple *whisper* his wife had a lover /*whisper* takes care of that.

Actually, the political game in Thedas seems to be very nasty indeed!

[KnightofPhoenix]

ejoslin wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

An official envoy from the anderfels and examples of Wardens conceiving children is not simple falsified counter-propaganda. It is proof. This only needs to be declared at the Landsmeet and they will know. Beyond that, it will become a minor nuissance.

Again, I did not claim that the 2 warden concieving plot is impossible. It could work, if played properly. BUt the risks cannot be denied.

You're assuming there are examples of wardens conceiving children after becoming wardens.  A simple *whisper* his wife had a lover /*whisper* takes care of that.

Actually, the political game in Thedas seems to be very nasty indeed!

Alistair said that there are, it's just not that common. So there must have been WArdens who did concieve.

And yea with the same logic, I can make every single person an illegitimate child. That's not the point. 
2 Wardens ruling as King and Queen is a precedent and I am sure the nobility would not forget the fact that they are Wardens. Them growing suspicious and eventually finding out is a very possible outcome. Especially if the fact that two wardens can't concieve is not hidden knowledge (though them being tainted is).

I personally would rather take the safer route and make sure that the the Moanrchy is not plunged in scndal.
 

[Nonvita]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Again, I did not claim that the 2 warden concieving plot is impossible. It could work, if played properly. BUt the risks cannot be denied.

Whew, I can see why you like Loghain so much! *coughparanoiacough*


Seriously, though, I would hope that anyone trying for a child in that manner would understand the risks and take precautions. The key is that there is no way to prove beyond a doubt whether the child is Alistair's or not (granted the actual father has some resemblance to him), so it becomes a matter of making people believe that it's possible.

Tell them that you're using some special fertility drug created by Avernus and use him for testimony if he's still alive. If a child is conceived, have Arl Eamon support the claim that it is Alistair's. Fereldans already do not trust Orlesians, and that is not likely to change overnight, so plots like that would probably be dismissed fairly easily. It's a matter of convincing people that what they know about Grey Wardens is not true. Considering most people know very little about them, you can claim that the idea two Grey Wardens can't have children wasn't entirely true.

And all of that is just assuming that the HNF gets pregnant before Alistair manages to get someone pregnant. If Ali managed to do it, then obviously you'd probably accept that child as the heir.

It obviously has faults, but it does provide another means by which someone on the throne could conceive a child. For the sake of having twice as much potential for producing an at least slightly legitimate heir to the throne, my HNF would take that risk.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Everyone knew how Cailan was acting, with his mistresses. It may have been unpopular, buyt Cailan's reign was not bothered by this.

We don't hear that rumor from anyone but Anora herself.  I'm not even positive that it's true, though since they were an arranged marriage, it certainly could be.

It is hard to make this comparison because circumstances are different and because he was once in love with her himself, but Loghain seems to believe that there was reason enough to hide Alistair's parentage because it would disgrace Rowan.

[fongiel24]

I don't mean to hijack a thread, but just out of curiosity, exactly how important is blood in Ferelden? Obviously the Theirin bloodline of Calenhad is important due to Calenhad's significance as the first monarch of a united Ferelden but what about the other bloodlines? It seems pretty firmly established in the codex that Ferelden monarchs must be given the consent of the nobility to rule, so in the case of a HNM/Anora, Anora/someone else child, is there anything guaranteeing this child would automatically assume the throne? Even with Alistair's Theirin blood, is there any guarantee that child would automatically become heir? It seems the Theirin blood gets a little more respect but clearly there have been unpopular Theirin heirs in the past who had trouble securing the throne. Both Arland and Maric's own grandfather had difficulties in securing the loyalty of the nobility. It seems that in Ferelden, competency ultimately trumps all else when it comes to determining a ruler (at least to me).

[Addai]

fongiel24 wrote...

It seems that in Ferelden, competency ultimately trumps all else when it comes to determining a ruler (at least to me).

The codexes (codices?) do indicate that it is not as absolutist as Orlais.  The king is expected to answer to the Landsmeet.  However, the legend of Calenhad is very central to Fereldan national identity.  If you don't preserve the ruling blood line, you end up with a War of Roses situation where the other powerful families duke it out for their place in the pecking order.

Modifié par Addai67, 25 avril 2010 - 06:06 .

[Xandurpein]

fongiel24 wrote...

I don't mean to hijack a thread, but just out of curiosity, exactly how important is blood in Ferelden? Obviously the Theirin bloodline of Calenhad is important due to Calenhad's significance as the first monarch of a united Ferelden but what about the other bloodlines? It seems pretty firmly established in the codex that Ferelden monarchs must be given the consent of the nobility to rule, so in the case of a HNM/Anora, Anora/someone else child, is there anything guaranteeing this child would automatically assume the throne? Even with Alistair's Theirin blood, is there any guarantee that child would automatically become heir? It seems the Theirin blood gets a little more respect but clearly there have been unpopular Theirin heirs in the past who had trouble securing the throne. Both Arland and Maric's own grandfather had difficulties in securing the loyalty of the nobility. It seems that in Ferelden, competency ultimately trumps all else when it comes to determining a ruler (at least to me).

A personal observation is that the people of the forum who are from North America or some other place that doesn't have a monarchy tends to be more zealous in the defence of the 'royal bloodline' than those of us who actually live in a monarchy. Maybe they over compensate or think or just read to many fairy tales. In reality a monarchy is governed by expediency as much as by tradition. Bloodlines come and go really. A monarchy has to adapt to survive just like the rest of the world.

The longest reigning bloodline in Sweden's history is the Wasa family, members of the family ruling from 1523  to 1814. The Wasa family contains the most famous swedish warrior kings, but by the beginning of the nineteenth century the surviving member was a childless nobody. So they head hunted one of Napoleon's marshals, born the son of a lawyer. He became an excellent King and his decendants still hold the Crown of Sweden today. Ancient bloodlines are a nice tradition, but not at the expense of good governing.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 25 avril 2010 - 07:58 .

[fongiel24]

Xandurpein wrote...

A personal observation is that the people of the forum who are from North America or some other place that doesn't have a monarchy tends to be more zealous in the defence of the 'royal bloodline' than those of us who actually live in a monarchy. Maybe they over compensate or think or just read to many fairy tales. In reality a monarchy is governed by expediency as much as by tradition. Bloodlines come and go really. A monarchy has to adapt to survive just like the rest of the world.

Canada is still a constitutional monarchy and last I checked we were still in North America . I agree about the need for monarchies to be pragmatic though, hence why I think the preoccupation with the need for an heir may be a bit much. Ferelden is not going to become a democratic republic and will still need a monarch, but I think the bannorn is pragmatic enough to decide on an acceptable ruler regardless of bloodline. Eamon just happens to be a hardcore traditionalist who overemphasizes the importance of the Theirin bloodline in keeping Ferelden unified.

[Xandurpein]

fongiel24 wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

A personal observation is that the people of the forum who are from North America or some other place that doesn't have a monarchy tends to be more zealous in the defence of the 'royal bloodline' than those of us who actually live in a monarchy. Maybe they over compensate or think or just read to many fairy tales. In reality a monarchy is governed by expediency as much as by tradition. Bloodlines come and go really. A monarchy has to adapt to survive just like the rest of the world.

Canada is still a constitutional monarchy and last I checked we were still in North America . I agree about the need for monarchies to be pragmatic though, hence why I think the preoccupation with the need for an heir may be a bit much. Ferelden is not going to become a democratic republic and will still need a monarch, but I think the bannorn is pragmatic enough to decide on an acceptable ruler regardless of bloodline. Eamon just happens to be a hardcore traditionalist who overemphasizes the importance of the Theirin bloodline in keeping Ferelden unified.

My bad then.  And I agree, Eamon is pretty much the Harrowmont of Denerim.

[master-fluff]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Anora talks about her life in the farmhouse and how Loghain got flowers for his wife. And Loghain talks about her childhood in Gwaren. So she didn't always live in a palace.

Hmm, looks like you've remembered this incorrectly.  Anora says of Loghain: "He was a farmer when he was a boy if you can believe it.  I never could myself.  He's useless with plants, for one thing.  I remember my mother once asking his help with a sick rose vine.  My mother oversaw the rose gardens personally."

Loghain was made a Teryn after the war, before he was married and before Anora was born.  Anora grew up a noble at the castle at Gwaren where they obviously had rose gardens.  She was never a peasant girl.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xander. I do not believe that in Medieval times, adoption within royal families was taken as lightly as in the modern times. If adoption was a simple solution, then Eamon would have asked Cailan to adopt and not divorce the daughter of Ferelden's general and Teyrn of Gwaren. Such a sloppy mistake can not be made by Eamon, if he knew that adoption could have solved all this.

master-fluff wrote...
Hmm, looks like you've remembered this incorrectly.  Anora says of Loghain: "He was a farmer when he was a boy if you can believe it.  I never could myself.  He's useless with plants, for one thing.  I remember my mother once asking his help with a sick rose vine.  My mother oversaw the rose gardens personally."

Loghain was made a Teryn after the war, before he was married and before Anora was born.  Anora grew up a noble at the castle at Gwaren where they obviously had rose gardens.  She was never a peasant girl.

Right, I concede that point. However, Anora doesn't seem to be ashamed of her heritage as a peasant's girl.
So I do not believe she is completely detached from the people as some believe. She might not be personable, but I do believe she has the interests of Ferelden and its people at heart.

[LadyDamodred]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

master-fluff wrote...
Hmm, looks like you've remembered this incorrectly.  Anora says of Loghain: "He was a farmer when he was a boy if you can believe it.  I never could myself.  He's useless with plants, for one thing.  I remember my mother once asking his help with a sick rose vine.  My mother oversaw the rose gardens personally."

Loghain was made a Teryn after the war, before he was married and before Anora was born.  Anora grew up a noble at the castle at Gwaren where they obviously had rose gardens.  She was never a peasant girl.

Right, I concede that point. However, Anora doesn't seem to be ashamed of her heritage as a peasant's girl.
So I do not believe she is completely detached from the people as some believe. She might not be personable, but I do believe she has the interests of Ferelden and its people at heart.

I don't think she ever saw her father as a peasant, though.  He was the Hero of River Dane, the man who almost single-handedly freed her country.  That is the only Loghain she has ever known.  Why would she, of all people, think of him as a peasant?  I think she has the best interest of the country at heart, not the best interest of the people.  There is a difference.

[KnightofPhoenix]

LadyDamodred wrote...
I don't think she ever saw her father as a peasant, though.  He was the Hero of River Dane, the man who almost single-handedly freed her country.  That is the only Loghain she has ever known.  Why would she, of all people, think of him as a peasant?  I think she has the best interest of the country at heart, not the best interest of the people.  There is a difference.

She never denied that he was a peasant and she isn't ashamed of that. She knows her heritage and that of her father, unlike most of the nobility whose families had been so for centuries. It is preciely because the Hero of the River Dane was nothing but a peasant, that she wouldn't have the arrogance to presume that only nobles have worth.

And no, I do not see any difference at all. When the country progresses and develops, the people will ultimately benefit. The interests of a country is equivalent to the interest of its people, as long as the people are not forced to sacrifice more than what they are gaining, which is not what Anora is doing. Her policies will benefit Ferelden and its people in borth the short and long term.

[LadyDamodred]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...
I don't think she ever saw her father as a peasant, though.  He was the Hero of River Dane, the man who almost single-handedly freed her country.  That is the only Loghain she has ever known.  Why would she, of all people, think of him as a peasant?  I think she has the best interest of the country at heart, not the best interest of the people.  There is a difference.

She never denied that he was a peasant and she isn't ashamed of that. She knows her heritage and that of her father, unlike most of the nobility whose families had been so for centuries. It is preciely because the Hero of the River Dane was nothing but a peasant, that she wouldn't have the arrogance to presume that only nobles have worth.

And no, I do not see any difference at all. When the country progresses and develops, the people will ultimately benefit. The interests of a country is equivalent to the interest of its people, as long as the people are not forced to sacrifice more than what they are gaining, which is not what Anora is doing. Her policies will benefit Ferelden and its people in borth the short and long term.

Regardless or knowing where her father came from, she has never seen herself as a peasant's daughter, imo.

And, no, a what is good for the country is not always good for the people.  A country can increase in power and prosperity and still treat its citizens absolutely miserably.  Look at all of human history.  Rulers that actually take a genuine interest in the welfare of the people is both a relatively new concept and a fairly rare one.

Also, I will have a chapter to you for review shortly, KoP.  Not your story, though I did work on it.

[KnightofPhoenix]

LadyDamodred wrote...
Regardless or knowing where her father came from, she has never seen herself as a peasant's daughter, imo.

And, no, a what is good for the country is not always good for the people.  A country can increase in power and prosperity and still treat its citizens absolutely miserably.  Look at all of human history.  Rulers that actually take a genuine interest in the welfare of the people is both a relatively new concept and a fairly rare one.

Also, I will have a chapter to you for review shortly, KoP.  Not your story, though I did work on it.

I disagree. She knows her father was a peasant, so naturally, she knows her heritage. Obviously she doesn't see her self as a peasant, but she knows where she and her father come from.

Let us assume that is the case (I disagree, the concept of wellfare is very old, but had evolved through time. And a people live better in a prosperous country rather than a poor one), no where does it state Anora treats the people miserably. Putting down an elven food riot does not mean at all that Anora is treating her people miserably. The general Ferelden population is treated fine and with Anora's policies, they would benefit greatly.

Sure thing! And thanks! 

  

[LadyDamodred]

Knowing where you came from is not the same as seeing youself as it. Anora does not see her father as a peasant, regardless of his origins. This is my point.



I'm not suggesting Anora treats the people miserably. I am saying the two things do not go hand in hand, as history has shown us. The food riot does show, however, that she, like almost all rulers, prioritizes/ignores certain parts of the population. That does not make one a bad ruler, but it does show their love for their subjects is less that complete. I think my main issue is that I don't see her as someone to be bothered by it. It's just another thing to cross of her to-do list. She just comes across as very cold.

[KnightofPhoenix]

LadyDamodred wrote...

Knowing where you came from is not the same as seeing youself as it. Anora does not see her father as a peasant, regardless of his origins. This is my point.

I'm not suggesting Anora treats the people miserably. I am saying the two things do not go hand in hand, as history has shown us. The food riot does show, however, that she, like almost all rulers, prioritizes/ignores certain parts of the population. That does not make one a bad ruler, but it does show their love for their subjects is less that complete. I think my main issue is that I don't see her as someone to be bothered by it. It's just another thing to cross of her to-do list. She just comes across as very cold.

How do you know she doesn't? She says it's hard to believe, but she was never ashamed of it.

Ignoring certain parts of the population is almost always a necessity. All societies are based on haves and have nots. Furthermore, the very small elven minority is not relevent to Ferelden's general wellfare and loving them, while nice, is mostly pointless. The general population of Ferelden, the vast majority, will benefit and that is what a ruler is supposed to do. 

She comes across as a great and efficient ruler that is benefiting Ferelden and her people to me. One I would hope my country is ruled by some day. "Cold" more often than not means efficient and rational and I certainly do not see this as a point against her. The love of a ruler towards one's people is best expressed by results and progress.    

[Nonvita]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

She comes across as a great and efficient ruler that is benefiting Ferelden and her people to me. One I would hope my country is ruled by some day.

As someone who lives around ever-present violence due to poverty, I respectfully disagree. And while the Alienage even may seem like an unimportant, isolated case, it may not be. If she is willing to disregard certain sectors of the population, then riots and uprisings are more likely. Even if she benefits most people, if she does not even attempt to help the lowest of the low it could have serious repercussions. It may not be shown in the epilogue slide, but it's true in real life and is not something to simply disregard because "elves are unimportant."

[Annarl]

I agree with KnightofPhoenix original post. When I play a Cousland, I almost always marry my PC to Anora or Alistair for the reasons KnightofPhoenix lists. Plus to my way of thinking a Cousland PC has family, i.e. Fergus who could potentially supply an heir. It's not perfect but could be the most stable line of succession for Fereldan.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Nonvita wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

She comes across as a great and efficient ruler that is benefiting Ferelden and her people to me. One I would hope my country is ruled by some day.

As someone who lives around ever-present violence due to poverty, I respectfully disagree. And while the Alienage even may seem like an unimportant, isolated case, it may not be. If she is willing to disregard certain sectors of the population, then riots and uprisings are more likely. Even if she benefits most people, if she does not even attempt to help the lowest of the low it could have serious repercussions. It may not be shown in the epilogue slide, but it's true in real life and is not something to simply disregard because "elves are unimportant."

And as someone who lived in a third world backward nation, I say progress and development are more important then satisfying a small minority that doesn't seem to offer anything.
The elves have been brought to heel and if they riot again, they will be crushed once more. It's only one sector of the population  and it's too small to affect the others, who don't really care about the elves anyhow.

People speak as if she is orchastrating a mass murder policy or an empovershiment policy vis a vis the elves. ITt was just one food riot that was brought down. It's minor in the larger scheme of things. If Ferelden develops and becomes more prosperous, there will be more avenues for the elves to participate and flourish.

Ferelden's number priority should be to end its status as a backward and poor nation. Once that is done, the elven problem can be delt with. A poor nation must prioritize. And the wellfare of Ferelden and the majority of its people is far more important than the elves.
And Anora's policies of trade expansion will reduce poverty.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 25 avril 2010 - 05:16 .

[Addai]

Xandurpein wrote...

A personal observation is that the people of the forum who are from North America or some other place that doesn't have a monarchy tends to be more zealous in the defence of the 'royal bloodline' than those of us who actually live in a monarchy. Maybe they over compensate or think or just read to many fairy tales. In reality a monarchy is governed by expediency as much as by tradition. Bloodlines come and go really. A monarchy has to adapt to survive just like the rest of the world.

I think a difference could be that people have in their minds a divine right of kings model, which is more late-medieval, versus a more Germanic, decentralized meritocracy which seems to me to be prevalent in Ferelden.  Nevertheless it is true that the Calenhad legend is one of the few things that tie together the semi-barbaric tribes that came together to forge the country's national identity.