93 réponses à ce sujet

[Taiko Roshi]

 Anyone interested in initiating a class action law suit against EA/BW for false advertisement and fraud please PM me.

Modifié par Taiko Roshi, 24 avril 2010 - 01:12 .

[Thajocoth]

I'm curious as to what the basis of such a lawsuit would be. Did they advertise another DLC and not put it out or something?

I haven't actually seen any of the ads.

Modifié par Thajocoth, 26 avril 2010 - 04:30 .

[PandemicFear]

Please explain. I have no Idea what you are talking about.

[Doozerpindan]

Just trolling or attention seeking, I'll bet.

[HedStr8EyesTite]

maybe they mean that bioware/ea sold us a game we can not actually play all the way through... unless we look up the workarounds for the bugs. the game is broken, i spent 60 bones on it, how many other people spent 60 bucks on an xbox 360 game that does not play properly??? theres alot of money there, im sure theres ground to stand on here no matter how shakey.

im to lazy to go after bioware for my 60 bucks, but if sombody else is doing it, more power to em.

somthing tells me, the bioware forums wouldnt be the best place to discuss a suit against bioware though... im no lawyer.

Modifié par HedStr8EyesTite, 26 avril 2010 - 03:45 .

[PandemicFear]

HedStr8EyesTite wrote...

maybe they mean that bioware/ea sold us a game we can not actually play all the way through... unless we look up the workarounds for the bugs. the game is broken, i spent 60 bones on it, how many other people spent 60 bucks on an xbox 360 game that does not play properly??? theres alot of money there, im sure theres ground to stand on here no matter how shakey.

im to lazy to go after bioware for my 60 bucks, but if sombody else is doing it, more power to em.

somthing tells me, the bioware forums wouldnt be the best place to discuss a suit against bioware though... im no lawyer.

I don't know about that. The game works fine for me. I haven't encountered any game-breaking bugs.

[Thajocoth]

All software has bugs in it. This software has some pretty big ones, but it saves often enough that, at worst, you lose, like, 5-10 minutes of play and figure out "Ok, don't cast animate dead on the important enemy's corpse..."

Really, I'm not seeing anything that requires looking stuff up to play through the game (unless you play games for the achievements).

I REALLY think suing them would not only be overreaction, but could have negative consequences on not just patches for this game, but future BioWare development as well... Making it more difficult for them to develop.

As a game dev myself, I know that game devs want to put out the best game they can. It's the publisher that restricts them, usually by asking for impossible things within too small a time frame, or in some cases requiring features no one cares about or wasting time complicating things with useless DRM. I once saw a game be reduced from being in a house with lots of rooms to being in a single room apartment because the publisher wanted the full version of a really really bad and annoying song during the title screen without going to the next cartridge size up.  (Naturally, every review of the game bashed the song.  It was on par with the song in the old Meow Mix commercials...)

Publisher's restrictions are necessary though. Without them, you get Duke Nukem Forever, because in a game dev's mind, there's always more bugs to fix and more features to add. It's like building a playground of infinite size. The fact that EA is letting BioWare look into some of the bugs is already better than expected. I really wouldn't push it...

Modifié par Thajocoth, 26 avril 2010 - 07:21 .

[sassperella]

Thajocoth, while I too don't agree with suing bioware, you are wrong about only losing 5-10 mins playtime. A lot of people have lost 40+ hours. On the Xbox 360 unless you read about possible ways to avoid the save corruption bug, your game can go bye byes at any time destroying your save files. this bug has been present for 6 months and bioware are aware of it but have done nothing. It is a huge major game breaking bug that seems to be caused by overloading merchants by selling too much to one, or by having more too many saved games across characters. Bioware have failed to address or even seem to care about this.

Modifié par sassperella, 26 avril 2010 - 09:15 .

[Wicked 702]

Thajocoth wrote...

Really, I'm not seeing anything that requires looking stuff up to play through the game (unless you play games for the achievements).

The Origins bug list

See page 1. Nobody Important has been cataloguing the issues for them since almost the beginning.

Really? You, as a game dev, think that's an acceptable number of issues to have with your 6 month old product? You think that the amount of support provided has been normal and sufficient? I laugh at that assertion.

Edit: Now add Awakenings and it's myraid bugs on to that and what do you get? A very pissed off bunch of customers.

Modifié par Wicked 702, 26 avril 2010 - 09:34 .

[jpo598]

Taiko Roshi wrote...

 Anyone interested in initiating a class action law suit against EA/BW for false advertisement and fraud please PM me.

Idiot. 

Everytime a game gets released some loser threatens a class action lawsuit.

Go ahead...call a lawyer.  Don't tell me how it works out though.  I already know.

[Thajocoth]

Of course I don't think that's an acceptable quantity of bugs... The fact that it's been out for half a year does not change what's acceptable either. An acceptable quantity of bugs at release is "No known game-breaking, major, or inhibiting bugs." Anything a user is fairly likely to notice...  The delayed looting bug ALONE is unnacceptable for the game at release.  A company should NEVER rely on their ability to patch a game later.  They should assume they won't be able to, and only do it if something really major occurs that they really need to fix.  That's my ideal at least...  Many do not agree with me on that.

I don't think it's really sue-worthy though. If they ever stated that these bugs didn't exist, or advertised that their game is bug free, THEN it would be sue-worthy. As it stands, most play-throughs result in seeing an ending eventually. It's not like it randomly stops displaying any graphics, or input stops working, or anything else too catastrophic happens.

Save corruption's gotta suck. Being that I don't work at BioWare, I'm not going to pay attention to the entire bug list... I've never gotten that bug, and I've got a habit of saving extra save files each time I see an auto-save happen anyway. So there's a bug that can potentially remove all progress if you never save on your own for some reason. That does suck and sounds a bit bigger than any of the other bugs I'm aware of. It's gotta be incredibly frustrating. Way back when, I played Super Mario Land 2. My GameBoy ran out of battery while saving when I was up to Wario's castle at the end. I had to put the game down for over a month, and didn't play handheld games away from an outlet again until the Nintendo DS. Suing Big N, however, didn't cross my mind. It would not have felt right to do. I genuinely enjoyed the game I had, and many other games I had purchased from them over the years. I figured that ignoring one major oversight was the least I could do. Of course, the game was so not riddled with other bugs too as Dragon Age is... Having put many hours into Dragon Age, it's DLC, and the Mass Effect series, enjoying these games very thoroughly, if I had been victim of the save glitch, perhaps while I was right up at the top of Fort Drakon, and didn't have any other saves, I would be very frustrated, but ultimately wind up feeling the same way. Towards BioWare, at least... I'd probably curse EA for not letting them finish debugging the game. Sue-able... Sure. I wouldn't personally.  EA is the one that gets sued, but BioWare is the one that gets punished if you win.  That too is a big part of why I wouldn't sue.

As for support though... What do you want? If they knew the causes of all the bugs they'd already be fixed. The best they could possibly do is debugging, which doesn't really involve talking to you. What's a representative going to say? "Yeah, that's totally a bug. That sucks." They've said they're working on debugging it. Posting that fact every day would only take away from time they could spend on debugging. The bigger the game, the longer issues take to debug, and the more issues there are... The game needs a lot of debug time. It sounds from what they've said like the next patch is supposed to be a major patch for the majority of the bugs... Personally, I'd've tried for multiple patches, each one fixing one major issue and a group of minor ones, that way people get some fixes earlier, (and player rage like this becomes less likely) but there's probably a reason for doing it this way. Maybe EA told them "We'll let you patch it one more time, then we're done with this and starting on the sequel." Maybe Microsoft charges EA per patch. (Not likely, since EA has patched things before, and will likely patch things again, and they're, well, EA.) Who knows?

Modifié par Thajocoth, 26 avril 2010 - 10:27 .

[Wicked 702]

You need to look it this through the viewpoint of contract law. I have a legal contract with someone (the name at the top of the EULA) to license a piece of software. That software is advertised to be a complete product, one with a beginning, middle, and end. If coding within the game prevents me without any outside modification, from completing said game (corrupt saves, broken quests, etc.), then the other party has broken the contract. I have a right to demand performance or compensation (refund). Since stores no longer allow you to return defective hardware (save for a replacement of the same program), the only recourse IS a lawsuit.

I'm not commenting on whether it's a good thing or bad thing, I'm just saying it's possibly the only viable source of recourse available....especially if you argue contract violations as the basis.

Edit: Treat this the same as the Xbox 360 and the RROD. There are still plenty of launch Xboxs that are going strong. But there are just as many that have died. Eventually, enough people had serious enough problems that the failure of Microsoft to deliver a functioning product was obvious. That, by definition, is a contract violation. It's called implied warranty. The same argument could be made here if enough people are willing to step forward. If enough people band together and show that they personally cannot use the product as advertised, then a lawsuit is most definitely appropriate. Just saying....

Modifié par Wicked 702, 26 avril 2010 - 11:13 .

[Thajocoth]

EULAs aren't universally recognized legally. I know that, in New York state, at least, they're pretty much meaningless. (I'm not going to be baited into a debate on that, or any other offshoot topics.  It's bad enough I'm debating this...) Not that I even remember seeing anything resembling a EULA for this game... I simply paid money, popped a disc in, and played a game. Nothing legally anything anywhere. All I'm aware of is that EA has claimed Dragon Age to be a video game. It is a video game. I don't see the legal issue.

I never got the RRoD, but don't they replace any system that gets one? And have had that policy since the 360's release? I'm pretty sure they have an ACTUAL warranty, not an implied one. Why would you be able to sue if they're willing to send you a new one that works?

Modifié par Thajocoth, 26 avril 2010 - 11:45 .

[Wicked 702]

Through a class action lawsuit, Microsoft agreed (in the settlement) to extend their warranty for the RROD and other issues to 3 years.

Actual warranties refer to defects in the physical product. Implied warranty means the thing "works as advertised". They are similar but have some key differences.

All I am saying is that if enough people make the claim that Dragon Age is not doing what it's supposed to do (which I keep intentionally vague because I'm not the lawyer arguing the case), they can sue on the basis that they didn't get proper consideration (another contract law term) for their purchase.

[Taiko Roshi]

Specifically BW advertise on the box that it "contains the full version of DA:O". Due to the number of bugs I do not have the "full version" of the game and have been waiting six months to play the "full version". That is false advertisement and the procurement of money by fraud.

Modifié par Taiko Roshi, 27 avril 2010 - 01:23 .

[Thajocoth]

Taiko Roshi wrote...

Specifically BW advertise on the box...

You probably mean EA there.  It's generally publishers that deal with boxes and ads and such, not devs.  At least, with the stuff I've worked on...

[Taiko Roshi]

Thajocoth wrote...

Taiko Roshi wrote...

Specifically BW advertise on the box...

You probably mean EA there.  It's generally publishers that deal with boxes and ads and such, not devs.  At least, with the stuff I've worked on...

Well both EA, and BW have their logo on the box.

[IzualTheMighty]

Started playing another character last week, 20+ Hours in and I have hit a game breaking one already. Not touching this again until they fix it, that's for sure. Bought Awakening also and I wish I would have waited before paying for that glitchfest too.

[13Dannyboy13]

EA has a ton of lawyers on their payroll so I doubt that the case would go too far. Still it would be nice to see something done to make them actually give a f*ck about supporting the buggy games they put out. I've lost 7 characters in total from bugs that have been there since day one. Lost 6 characters and 240+ hours from save corruption which ruined every file, and had another character stuck in Orzamaar from trying to play both sides and got caught in the endless loop where neither side will give you a quest. The amount of bugs in this game is staggering, and some of them are game breakers, where others are just annoying.
In six months they haven't done a dam thing to fix any of the bugs including the small, easily fixable bugs. Fixing the dex bug is a simple tweak, yet here we are six months later and all they've done is break the game more to rush out the bug-ridden expansion. Instead of fixing the game they instead focus on marketing ploys as a smokescreen, and useless DLC (feastday gifts) as a moneygrab. I honestly doubt that they have any intention of fixing this game since so many people still mindlessly buy up every little thing they rush out regardles of the sh*tty, non-existant support and overall lack of caring. The only time we see them is when they want votes or publicity from us or to buy more bug-ridden stuff, never to actually anounce that they have made a patch for the game to actually fix something.
Do they really expect us to believe that in six months they couldn't even give us some smaller patches? I mean the modders have already fixed a lot of the bugs and I'm sure most of them would gladly let Bioware use their fixes, but the effort is just not there. It's sad to see what Bioware has become, just another puppet of EA, with the same sh*tty philosophy about games which is "release them as fast as possible and maybe fix them later". Short of actually taking them to court, the only recourse we have is to stop giving them our money, if not it will be more of the same and probably get even worse. Shame on you Bioware/EA, you've already lost a lot of fans, and if this keeps up you'll lose even more.

Modifié par 13Dannyboy13, 28 avril 2010 - 02:46 .

[Thajocoth]

You honestly think suing them will get them to fix stuff in this game? I think suing them could get them to drop any possibility of fixing stuff in this game.

[Surango]

Thajocoth wrote...

You honestly think suing them will get them to fix stuff in this game? I think suing them could get them to drop any possibility of fixing stuff in this game.

Agreed. Writing a formal letter stating you will not purchase products from the company until you see a change for the better would be an option to consider. List what changes you want to see. Leave out any cursing or ranting for legal and social reasons. Sign it, date it, and mail it in. DA is actually the first game I've ever bought from EA, and I likely would never have bothered if not for the nwn community.

[Wicked 702]

Got Microsoft to acknowledge and fix the RROD issue.

Just saying....

[Thajocoth]

Wicked 702 wrote...

Got Microsoft to acknowledge and fix
the RROD issue.
Just saying....

That was far more people than this could possibly generate...

You'd need EA to lose the case to have any useful effect. Especially EA, of all companies in the industry... And if you do manage to beat them, and they fix this game, they'll make BW suffer for it in the future, one way or another.  Maybe they'll fire people.  Maybe they'll screw with the dev cycle or put massive restrictions on their creativity.

And if EA wins such a case, which is far more likely, they're likely to drop any further interaction with the game, as it'd be too big a risk in their eyes.  They wouldn't want another lawsuit for whatever bugs are in the next patch, and that's what's most important to EA.  If the lawsuit costs them enough, BW will still see the same punishments for it.

Really, no good could come of this.  Surango's idea is really your best bet.

Modifié par Thajocoth, 29 avril 2010 - 01:00 .

[Michael177]

Edit: I removed my post... cause i didn't wanna feed the troll, instead I reported the troll.

Have a good day =p.

Modifié par Michael177, 29 avril 2010 - 01:40 .

[Wicked 702]

^ How about you explain why truly believing you got taken by buying a product riddled with flaws and wanting to get legal restitution through the court system is trolling?

Just because the gas peddle on your Toyota didn't stick, doesn't mean no one has the problem.