93 réponses à ce sujet

[IzualTheMighty]

Even if Billy Mays were to come back and try to sell me anything from Bioware I'd tell him to F*** off.

[BigBlue]

what about anthony sullivan?

[Shazzammer2]

well umm, good luck with that OP.

Truth be told, its rather silly getting all worked up over a couple of bugs.

Modifié par Shazzammer2, 08 mai 2010 - 08:57 .

[smecky-kitteh]

this thread sucks.

[Liosha]

smecky-kitteh wrote...

this thread sucks. only leszek iz da best

Thanks.

[Saberdark]

Where exactly is this bugfree full game you guys are talking about? I know I don't have one. Does somebody else? Full does in no way imply bugfree, it means that you have the finished version, which is what you have. You have no case for this.



If you really think that the court of public appeal would have your side even though you have no chance of winning and are merely going to rack up legal fees, you're joking. This kind of case nobody cares about, I mean really, some people complaining about a couple bugs in a game? Nobody who doesn't play games will care, and most people who do accept that there are always going to be bugs. Unless the EULA specifically stated that the game was bugfree(it doesn't), you have nothing.

[MuLepton]

Good to see that people keep missing the point, and that's got nothing to do with whether a lawsuit would have any chance of being successful or not. It's not that the game isn't completely bugfree, no one is delusional enough to expect that.

It's the fact that the bugs in question are game-breaking, prevent people from completing the game and ARE NOT being fixed.

[Noilly Prat]

Wicked 702 wrote...

Noilly Prat wrote...

I realize that Origins has not seen a patch in a little while since launch, (fixed for you)

Noilly Prat wrote...

It still sucks, but I don't think that silly, ill-advised lawsuits generally help consumers at all. The fact that Microsoft has managed not to get the pants sued off of them in spite of knowingly shipping numerous faulty consoles doesn't bode well for a lawsuit like this. (I am aware that some people have sued Microsoft over related matters, but these have gone nowhere as far as I know, and it hasn't forced Microsoft to even admit many of the problems, much less deal with them or refund customers who paid for repairs despite not having misused their consoles.)

Not correct. Microsoft did get the pants sued off of them. In fact, it was a class action lawsuit. The case was settled, the financial details of which are private of course.

The later public benefit was Microsoft's very real acknowledgment that their console had problems, the refund of money to those that had to pay for repairs, and an extension of the warranty for certain problems (including the RRoD) to three years.

.....look it up.

I had to send my 360 off for repairs, for reasons completely unrelated to the red ring of death.  My console was scratching my game discs, apparently due to manufacturing defects-- not misuse of the console on my part-- and Microsoft customer support never acknowledged the problem, essentially just blaming me for the problem.  I had to pay for the repairs.

Thing is, a lot of other people have had this exact same problem.  There have even been independent investigations carried out by or on behalf of consumer groups that have indicated that this is a problem many users have had, which is Microsoft's fault (though it has not received the attention of the RROD).

Microsoft's official response to these reports is still that it is caused by misuse of the console on the user's part, and no compensation or free repairs have ever been offered that I am aware of.

Look that up.

[challenger18]

Noilly Prat wrote...

Wicked 702 wrote...

Noilly Prat wrote...

I realize that Origins has not seen a patch in a little while since launch, (fixed for you)

Noilly Prat wrote...

It still sucks, but I don't think that silly, ill-advised lawsuits generally help consumers at all. The fact that Microsoft has managed not to get the pants sued off of them in spite of knowingly shipping numerous faulty consoles doesn't bode well for a lawsuit like this. (I am aware that some people have sued Microsoft over related matters, but these have gone nowhere as far as I know, and it hasn't forced Microsoft to even admit many of the problems, much less deal with them or refund customers who paid for repairs despite not having misused their consoles.)

Not correct. Microsoft did get the pants sued off of them. In fact, it was a class action lawsuit. The case was settled, the financial details of which are private of course.

The later public benefit was Microsoft's very real acknowledgment that their console had problems, the refund of money to those that had to pay for repairs, and an extension of the warranty for certain problems (including the RRoD) to three years.

.....look it up.

I had to send my 360 off for repairs, for reasons completely unrelated to the red ring of death.  My console was scratching my game discs, apparently due to manufacturing defects-- not misuse of the console on my part-- and Microsoft customer support never acknowledged the problem, essentially just blaming me for the problem.  I had to pay for the repairs.

Thing is, a lot of other people have had this exact same problem.  There have even been independent investigations carried out by or on behalf of consumer groups that have indicated that this is a problem many users have had, which is Microsoft's fault (though it has not received the attention of the RROD).

Microsoft's official response to these reports is still that it is caused by misuse of the console on the user's part, and no compensation or free repairs have ever been offered that I am aware of.

Look that up.

I had that problem with the first version of the 360. It uses a different disc tray than it does now. Anyway, it would create these small white scratches around my discs and I had to pay 90 dollars for the repairs. A while later my 360 gets RROD. I send it in to Microsoft free of charge. A while later I get a check from them, reimbursing me the 90 dollars I had paid them the first time. Cool thing was, I didn't even mention it, they just did it.

Modifié par challenger18, 12 mai 2010 - 04:05 .

[Noilly Prat]

challenger18 wrote...


I had that problem with the first version of the 360. It uses a different disc tray than it does now. Anyway, it would create these small white scratches around my discs and I had to pay 90 dollars for the repairs. A while later my 360 gets RROD. I send it in to Microsoft free of charge. A while later I get a check from them, reimbursing me the 90 dollars I had paid them the first time. Cool thing was, I didn't even mention it, they just did it.

Hmm.  Interesting.  I wonder if they assumed that the previous repairs were RRoD-related, or if the reimbursement was a standard thing, or something else.  I bugged them for a while before sending my machine off to be repaired, and finally just broke down and paid for the repairs once it became obvious that they were not going to accept the possibility that my Xbox had shipped defective.  I was kind of tired of the whole thing after all that, so I never bothered bringing it up after the fact, though maybe I should have.

I count myself lucky that I haven't had any problems since then, and have never experienced the dreaded RRoD.  (Of course, I guess it's also a bit ridiculous to feel lucky because an expensive piece of hardware you've bought works as it should-- especially after paying for repairs that should never have been needed.)

[IzualTheMighty]

I've had 3 white models and 1 elite RRoD on me so far, havn't paid a penny though.

[Wicked 702]

Noilly Prat wrote...

Wicked 702 wrote...

Noilly Prat wrote...

I realize that Origins has not seen a patch in a little while since launch, (fixed for you)

Noilly Prat wrote...

It still sucks, but I don't think that silly, ill-advised lawsuits generally help consumers at all. The fact that Microsoft has managed not to get the pants sued off of them in spite of knowingly shipping numerous faulty consoles doesn't bode well for a lawsuit like this. (I am aware that some people have sued Microsoft over related matters, but these have gone nowhere as far as I know, and it hasn't forced Microsoft to even admit many of the problems, much less deal with them or refund customers who paid for repairs despite not having misused their consoles.)

Not correct. Microsoft did get the pants sued off of them. In fact, it was a class action lawsuit. The case was settled, the financial details of which are private of course.

The later public benefit was Microsoft's very real acknowledgment that their console had problems, the refund of money to those that had to pay for repairs, and an extension of the warranty for certain problems (including the RRoD) to three years.

.....look it up.

I had to send my 360 off for repairs, for reasons completely unrelated to the red ring of death.  My console was scratching my game discs, apparently due to manufacturing defects-- not misuse of the console on my part-- and Microsoft customer support never acknowledged the problem, essentially just blaming me for the problem.  I had to pay for the repairs.

Thing is, a lot of other people have had this exact same problem.  There have even been independent investigations carried out by or on behalf of consumer groups that have indicated that this is a problem many users have had, which is Microsoft's fault (though it has not received the attention of the RROD).

Microsoft's official response to these reports is still that it is caused by misuse of the console on the user's part, and no compensation or free repairs have ever been offered that I am aware of.

Look that up.

And of course I said certain problems, not all problems, which you proceeded to simply ignore and then tell your story about something not covered in the information I provided. Well done....

Unless you were a part of the class action suit, you're not going to get a refund obviously. The extension of the warranty to three years for the RRoD and a couple other issues is what the public eventually got. While I agree that your problem was likely a result of defective manufacturing, that fact is neither relevant nor useful to the topic at hand.

[Noilly Prat]

Wicked 702 wrote...


And of course I said certain problems, not all problems, which you proceeded to simply ignore and then tell your story about something not covered in the information I provided. Well done....

Unless you were a part of the class action suit, you're not going to get a refund obviously. The extension of the warranty to three years for the RRoD and a couple other issues is what the public eventually got. While I agree that your problem was likely a result of defective manufacturing, that fact is neither relevant nor useful to the topic at hand.

And I had said that, while I was aware Microsoft had been sued over some faulty console-related issues, they were never forced to admit responsibility for all of the problems users have experienced, including myself.  Which you proceeded to ignore while recounting a particular, already well-known case in which Microsoft was forced to acknowledge a serious problem after being sued, although it does nothing to change the fact that Xbox owners such as myself, who have experienced problems other than the RRoD, have generally gotten the cold shoulder.

My point was relevant to my previous post, which I thought was relevant to the topic in that the point I was trying to make was simply that many companies have dodged responsibility, wholly or partially, over issues which I personally consider more serious than BioWare shipping a buggy game and not patching it within a timeframe certain players consider reasonable.  I certainly sympathize with the players who have gotten the worst of the Origins and Awakening bugs, but my sympathy wavers a bit when those players begin seriously discussing a class action lawsuit.

I mean no personal offense to anybody here when I say this, but class action lawsuits can serve a very valuable social purpose in defending aggrieved or abused parties against powerful interests.  To some degree, I think that talk of bringing a class action lawsuit against BioWare or EA essentially over a buggy software product is at best a funny joke and at worst a bit of an insult to the institution, and cheapens more legitimate consumer protection lawsuits.

Put another way: I know that a lot of internet message board postings are so much hot air, but if a person's biggest problem in their life is really that they feel they wasted money on a buggy computer game, they should be glad that they don't have any real problems to worry about.

[edgarcabrerauk]

The class action law suit can be possible, but not under a global law, just local laws... the fact of an existing EULA, it does grant to the company software to give product to the customer, but under the european law, it grants the reception of the software "as-is" but does not grant the acceptance of the execution of the software "as.is" delivered; In the case of the video games, they are considered consumer goods, and therefore once the client purchase the product, it becomes a consumer good... under the UK and European law, this overpass the EULA, because there are purchased from a retailer that sell consumer goods, under the UK consumer act, once you acquire a consumer good, the value is inherent on how it matches your client needs... therefore you've got the right to return the good within 6 months of purchase... I do not know about the rest of the world, but such a law suit is only possible under the local laws, as an example, the Microsoft case in Europe, Here, the fact of open a software does not get rid of your consumer rights as in North America, if it stated (as in the Toshiba software) this doe not imply the strip of your consumer rights...Toshiba is enforced to give support in such a software. Very few software organisations state such a seal and if they do, they are enforced to deliver a bug free product, in order to make it's software product valid.

Modifié par edgarcabrerauk, 13 mai 2010 - 12:00 .

[Wicked 702]

Noilly Prat wrote...

Wicked 702 wrote...


And of course I said certain problems, not all problems, which you proceeded to simply ignore and then tell your story about something not covered in the information I provided. Well done....

Unless you were a part of the class action suit, you're not going to get a refund obviously. The extension of the warranty to three years for the RRoD and a couple other issues is what the public eventually got. While I agree that your problem was likely a result of defective manufacturing, that fact is neither relevant nor useful to the topic at hand.

And I had said that, while I was aware Microsoft had been sued over some faulty console-related issues, they were never forced to admit responsibility for all of the problems users have experienced, including myself.  Which you proceeded to ignore while recounting a particular, already well-known case in which Microsoft was forced to acknowledge a serious problem after being sued, although it does nothing to change the fact that Xbox owners such as myself, who have experienced problems other than the RRoD, have generally gotten the cold shoulder.

My point was relevant to my previous post, which I thought was relevant to the topic in that the point I was trying to make was simply that many companies have dodged responsibility, wholly or partially, over issues which I personally consider more serious than BioWare shipping a buggy game and not patching it within a timeframe certain players consider reasonable.  I certainly sympathize with the players who have gotten the worst of the Origins and Awakening bugs, but my sympathy wavers a bit when those players begin seriously discussing a class action lawsuit.

I mean no personal offense to anybody here when I say this, but class action lawsuits can serve a very valuable social purpose in defending aggrieved or abused parties against powerful interests.  To some degree, I think that talk of bringing a class action lawsuit against BioWare or EA essentially over a buggy software product is at best a funny joke and at worst a bit of an insult to the institution, and cheapens more legitimate consumer protection lawsuits.

Put another way: I know that a lot of internet message board postings are so much hot air, but if a person's biggest problem in their life is really that they feel they wasted money on a buggy computer game, they should be glad that they don't have any real problems to worry about.

The problem is that while I don't disagree with your points and even though I've already stated that my opinion is that a lawsuit is probably not going to work, I'm left asking the same question over and over.  Where's the protection for the average consumer?

As things stand right now you have no way of getting a "refund" or enforcing any sort of performance on said contract (your purchase of the game), other than suing somebody. Stores don't take refunds on software....period. So think about it. Let's assume we take this to a more extreme example. Let's say that the game crashed every time you tried to pick mage as a PC class. So now the game is advertised as having three playable classes, but something goes wrong in the coding and you can only pick two. And let's assume the same console patch schedule as we have now, with Bioware fixing nothing but achievements and trophies in 6 months. What then?

While I agree with anyone that says not to buy any future products, there still should be a way to collect on your current contract. As of right now, the legal system is the ONLY option available for such a thing. Should the consumer still have to just suck it up and eat it? What if the game crashed at the title screen every time? The point here is that the relative level of acceptable "bugs" in a game is too subjective. And subjective issues are things that can be hammered out in court. With the right approach, a case like this is most definitely not frivilous.

What would eventually come of such a thing.....well, we can all be subjective and throw in whatever we want.

[Noilly Prat]

Wicked 702 wrote...


The problem is that while I don't disagree with your points and even though I've already stated that my opinion is that a lawsuit is probably not going to work, I'm left asking the same question over and over.  Where's the protection for the average consumer?

As things stand right now you have no way of getting a "refund" or enforcing any sort of performance on said contract (your purchase of the game), other than suing somebody. Stores don't take refunds on software....period. So think about it. Let's assume we take this to a more extreme example. Let's say that the game crashed every time you tried to pick mage as a PC class. So now the game is advertised as having three playable classes, but something goes wrong in the coding and you can only pick two. And let's assume the same console patch schedule as we have now, with Bioware fixing nothing but achievements and trophies in 6 months. What then?

While I agree with anyone that says not to buy any future products, there still should be a way to collect on your current contract. As of right now, the legal system is the ONLY option available for such a thing. Should the consumer still have to just suck it up and eat it? What if the game crashed at the title screen every time? The point here is that the relative level of acceptable "bugs" in a game is too subjective. And subjective issues are things that can be hammered out in court. With the right approach, a case like this is most definitely not frivilous. 

What would eventually come of such a thing.....well, we can all be subjective and throw in whatever we want.

I also think it's a problem that it is possible for a game developer to release a buggy game and never be compelled to fix it.  Unfortunately, I don't see any easy solution to this problem.  As I have said, I tend to think in most cases that a lawsuit over something like this would not be justified, but I also believe that, sometimes, imperfect solutions are necessary when there is little or no other recourse.

I agree with your view that a lawsuit would probably be unlikely to succeed in this case.  Much of the grounds for a lawsuit that I have seen presented in this topic is based on the premise that players are being denied access to the "full game" due to bugs.  As you said, the acceptability of a game's level of bugginess is subjective, and if there is a real, widely-accepted working legal definition of "full game" I am unaware of it.  I just don't see that there is really a legal framework by which anybody could show that a game has bugs which prevent players from enjoying the full game.

Anyway, even though I don't think that a lawsuit against BioWare or EA is a good idea, I also don't think it is acceptable that gamers who buy games with serious bugs affecting basic playability have to, in effect, just suck it up.  In this case, I am hoping that a little patience (well, a little more patience) will pay off and that BioWare will soon make good on this patch that we have heard about, and that it will address most people's concerns.  (Some dev did drop by a while ago and say that some sort of patch was forthcoming, right?)

Modifié par Noilly Prat, 13 mai 2010 - 05:39 .

[Massadonious1]

MuLepton wrote...

twjohnston0659 wrote...

I find it hard to believe that someone can actually delude him/herself into such a false sense of entitlement...

Buying a game and expecting it to be bug-free, or at least expecting that game-breaking bugs (hello corrupted savegames) are fixed promtply, is having a false sense of entitlement.... how again?

I don't doubt that this is a legitimate issue, but I see this guy constantly derail legitimate threads, especially announcement threads that have no correlation to coders, or even Dragon Age. I'm sorry that the game is broken, but I don't think the guys that make Mass Effect 2 posters or hoodies are going to pass along his message.

I don't care what he rallies against, and if he does file a lawsuit, I hope it works, but to be honest, I'd like to be able to read both forums without having to constantly hear about how much it sucks that he can't play the game.

[13Dannyboy13]

Noilly Prat wrote...

Wicked 702 wrote...


The problem is that while I don't disagree with your points and even though I've already stated that my opinion is that a lawsuit is probably not going to work, I'm left asking the same question over and over.  Where's the protection for the average consumer?

As things stand right now you have no way of getting a "refund" or enforcing any sort of performance on said contract (your purchase of the game), other than suing somebody. Stores don't take refunds on software....period. So think about it. Let's assume we take this to a more extreme example. Let's say that the game crashed every time you tried to pick mage as a PC class. So now the game is advertised as having three playable classes, but something goes wrong in the coding and you can only pick two. And let's assume the same console patch schedule as we have now, with Bioware fixing nothing but achievements and trophies in 6 months. What then?

While I agree with anyone that says not to buy any future products, there still should be a way to collect on your current contract. As of right now, the legal system is the ONLY option available for such a thing. Should the consumer still have to just suck it up and eat it? What if the game crashed at the title screen every time? The point here is that the relative level of acceptable "bugs" in a game is too subjective. And subjective issues are things that can be hammered out in court. With the right approach, a case like this is most definitely not frivilous. 

What would eventually come of such a thing.....well, we can all be subjective and throw in whatever we want.

I also think it's a problem that it is possible for a game developer to release a buggy game and never be compelled to fix it.  Unfortunately, I don't see any easy solution to this problem.  As I have said, I tend to think in most cases that a lawsuit over something like this would not be justified, but I also believe that, sometimes, imperfect solutions are necessary when there is little or no other recourse.

I agree with your view that a lawsuit would probably be unlikely to succeed in this case.  Much of the grounds for a lawsuit that I have seen presented in this topic is based on the premise that players are being denied access to the "full game" due to bugs.  As you said, the acceptability of a game's level of bugginess is subjective, and if there is a real, widely-accepted working legal definition of "full game" I am unaware of it.  I just don't see that there is really a legal framework by which anybody could show that a game has bugs which prevent players from enjoying the full game.

Anyway, even though I don't think that a lawsuit against BioWare or EA is a good idea, I also don't think it is acceptable that gamers who buy games with serious bugs affecting basic playability have to, in effect, just suck it up.  In this case, I am hoping that a little patience (well, a little more patience) will pay off and that BioWare will soon make good on this patch that we have heard about, and that it will address most people's concerns.  (Some dev did drop by a while ago and say that some sort of patch was forthcoming, right?)

Sadly the line about a patch "being worked on" is the same line we've been hearing for over six months, and usually around dlc release time, like now. It's very unlikely that a lawsuit would work because they would simply hide behind the EULA and say you bought it "as is" and we don't have to do sh*t to fix it. Sadly there is very little that we as consumers can do, the whole issue of having a "full" game is such a grey area that it could never be used in court as it would be picked apart by EA's team of lawyers.
Short of refusing to buy any more of their product there is nothing we can do....there is no way to get a refund, there is no way to force them to fix the game, the only option for this game is to wait and hope that one of these times that they say a fix is coming that we actually, you know, get some fixes for the game.
It would also help if they came here more than once every month or two at the same time that new dlc was coming out, it makes their line about fixes coming just seem hollow and more PR than anything.