190 réponses à ce sujet

[Aisynia]

ejoslin wrote...

Aisynia wrote...

Well I must add that Zevran is the kind of person who will just get pleasure wherever he can take it while Leliana wants an actual connection and love. Her past was solely for her job. Her personal life was one in pursuit of actual romance. Marjolaine may have manipulated her and betrayed her, but Leliana LOVED her, very dearly. It wasn't a fling. Leliana doesn't want a fling, while Zevran is just fine with one.

Stronger standards.

That desire for actual love and actual companionship beyond physical pleasure is a huge deal breaker for me. If Zevran and Leliana are both between 50-74 and you have slept with Zevran, she will confront you about it, and part of the conversation can really highlight their differences in that regard. It's a very interesting and emotional conversation. You and her are not officially in a relationship yet, so she knows she's overstepping her bounds, but some of what can be said between the two of you certainly makes her views on sex very, VERY clear in a distinct contrast to his.

With Leliana, the standard is 51+ - 70 and you have to have slept with Zevran (yes, I'm a toolset addict -- I've also done her romance).  Once you have both at 71+, both will force you to make a choice, though Zevran says it's about the other person.

With Zevran, being in a committed relationship is the last thing he wants, true, and it never occurs to him that it may happen.  Which is why, for me, that when that is the only way he'll be with the warden, not only committed, but wanting a promise of the future should they survive, is so touching.  He falls in love despite himself, rather than falling in love because he wants to. 

I will point out that he is just as faithful as the other romance partners once in a relationship.

Edit: Took out romance ending spoiler.

I'm aware of that, but like I said, his standards CHANGE, while Leliana's are rock solid throughout the game. Even hardening her doesn't have too much of an effect on this. Hardening just convinces her that she belongs on the road as a rogue, and that her life in the cloister is over, that she no longer has to hide from Marjolaine, or from herself. Her actual standards never change.

There IS that scene with Isabela, but I think that's sometjhing different altogether. Even with my personal sexual standards, I would be strongly tempted to do that as long as my girlfriend came along

Unless my character is a psychic, they will not know, or be given any hint, under any circumstances, that Zevran is capable of changing and taking a relationship seriously -- not until you are very late in the game and already have his romance running that is.

Then again.. it does occur to me.. that while I am not one of them, a lot of women will try (and admit to it) to change their lover. My girlfriend is one *sigh*. And she has changed me in some small ways, for the better, and I appreciate that to some degree (at least she can admit it).. but I'm the kind of woman to just take things "as is". I see Zevran, and I see a promiscuous assassin with no desire to change or have a real relationship. I don't see a "project".

Modifié par Aisynia, 25 avril 2010 - 03:59 .

[ejoslin]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

There are a few dialog options I can think of, but you're right, she doesn't discuss it as openly. She's not as open as Zevran is for sure, and I understand why that makes someone uncomfortable. And you're right; Zevran will admit that the reason he had sex with everyone was to make things more interesting. Leliana, though, just with a few comments made me pause.

Thank you for your answer! I understand quite a bit better now!

Another point on this. Leliana is trying to change and it's clear that she had embraced a new lifestyle (unless hardened, she is very serious about relationships and sex in general). Zevran on the otherhand doens't show like he wants to change (unless when romanced and at the very end).

Hah, I think he didn't want to change, even at the end.  He just couldn't help it.  Bleh, try keeping it casual at the end or even telling him that a proposal is too much   Even he has trouble admitting this.

[Aisynia]

ejoslin wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

There are a few dialog options I can think of, but you're right, she doesn't discuss it as openly. She's not as open as Zevran is for sure, and I understand why that makes someone uncomfortable. And you're right; Zevran will admit that the reason he had sex with everyone was to make things more interesting. Leliana, though, just with a few comments made me pause.

Thank you for your answer! I understand quite a bit better now!

Another point on this. Leliana is trying to change and it's clear that she had embraced a new lifestyle (unless hardened, she is very serious about relationships and sex in general). Zevran on the otherhand doens't show like he wants to change (unless when romanced and at the very end).

Hah, I think he didn't want to change, even at the end.  He just couldn't help it.  Bleh, try keeping it casual at the end or even telling him that a proposal is too much   Even he has trouble admitting this.

And that's kind of what I'm saying.. you have to either KNOW he will change or INTEND to change him in order to pursue a relationship with him with the intent of it being serious.

I'm not the kind of person to engage in that sort of behavior. Not saying it's wrong, just saying it isn't me.

Modifié par Aisynia, 25 avril 2010 - 04:01 .

[ejoslin]

Aisynia wrote...
I'm aware of that, but like I said, his standards CHANGE, while Leliana's are rock solid throughout the game. Even hardening her doesn't have too much of an effect on this. Hardening just convinces her that she belongs on the road as a rogue, and that her life in the cloister is over, that she no longer has to hide from Marjolaine, or from herself. Her actual standards never change.

Unless my character is a psychic, they will not know, or be given any hint, under any circumstances, that Zevran is capable of changing and taking a relationship seriously -- not until you are very late in the game and already have his romance running that is.

Then again.. it does occur to me.. that while I am not one of them, a lot of women will try (and admit to it) to change their lover. My girlfriend is one *sigh*. And she has changed me in some small ways, for the better, and I appreciate that to some degree (at least she can admit it).. but I'm the kind of woman to just take things "as is". I see Zevran, and I see a promiscuous assassin with no desire to change or have a real relationship. I don't see a "project".

THAT makes a lot more sense to me than, "He grosses me out."  I do agree with you to a huge extent.

The difference is, with my wardens who romance him, is they, by necessity, are not looking long term.

Also, though, straight from the beginning almost, Zevran WILL have a talk with the warden where he establishes, whether they're friends, FWB, or more.  He does this at an even lower threshhold than Leliana.  He DOES ask if it's possible that they will remain together after the blight is dealt with, and in what capacity.  This also can be taken since he has indentured himself to the warden, but there are the dialog choices where he's asking, "will we be together as more than friends," and if you answer, "I'd like that," he agrees that he would as well.

Edit: Of course, you can just tell him there's always a use for a handsome elf, and he likes that as well.  My only point is you don't have to play it as a FWB at the start; you really can play it as a reasonably committed relationship on both ends.

Modifié par ejoslin, 25 avril 2010 - 04:04 .

[LadyDamodred]

You know, none of my characters (or myself) were ever too bothered by all Zevran's sleeping around and flirting. He was a slave, and tells you he finds what pleasure he can where he can. He hasn't had a lot of choice in what he's had to do, and that includes both killing people and having sex. He honestly has no idea how to lvoe or what it even feels like, so I can't really judge him for finding and taking the closest thing he knows to it.

[Aisynia]

ejoslin wrote...

Aisynia wrote...
I'm aware of that, but like I said, his standards CHANGE, while Leliana's are rock solid throughout the game. Even hardening her doesn't have too much of an effect on this. Hardening just convinces her that she belongs on the road as a rogue, and that her life in the cloister is over, that she no longer has to hide from Marjolaine, or from herself. Her actual standards never change.

Unless my character is a psychic, they will not know, or be given any hint, under any circumstances, that Zevran is capable of changing and taking a relationship seriously -- not until you are very late in the game and already have his romance running that is.

Then again.. it does occur to me.. that while I am not one of them, a lot of women will try (and admit to it) to change their lover. My girlfriend is one *sigh*. And she has changed me in some small ways, for the better, and I appreciate that to some degree (at least she can admit it).. but I'm the kind of woman to just take things "as is". I see Zevran, and I see a promiscuous assassin with no desire to change or have a real relationship. I don't see a "project".

THAT makes a lot more sense to me than, "He grosses me out."  I do agree with you to a huge extent.

The difference is, with my wardens who romance him, is they, by necessity, are not looking long term.

Also, though, straight from the beginning almost, Zevran WILL have a talk with the warden where he establishes, whether they're friends, FWB, or more.  He does this at an even lower threshhold than Leliana.  He DOES ask if it's possible that they will remain together after the blight is dealt with, and in what capacity.  This also can be taken since he has indentured himself to the warden, but there are the dialog choices where he's asking, "will we be together as more than friends," and if you answer, "I'd like that," he agrees that he would as well.

Edit: Of course, you can just tell him there's always a use for a handsome elf, and he likes that as well.  My only point is you don't have to play it as a FWB at the start; you really can play it as a reasonably committed relationship on both ends.

Yeah, I know, as I said, I romanced him once.. I just don't think he's comfortable with you trying to make it more than it is until the end when he realizes.. "Oh wait.. I love her! What the heck do I do now!?"

[Demetra11]

9 Chars endet the game with Alistair. I tried the other romances as well, made even an elf for morrigain, got the archivement and deleted him. Leli the same.

I am Alistair obsessed.Maybe Zevran is a fine lover, but i gave it up now.
For me Alistair is perfect.

Modifié par Demetra11, 25 avril 2010 - 04:11 .

[ejoslin]

Aisynia wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Aisynia wrote...
I'm aware of that, but like I said, his standards CHANGE, while Leliana's are rock solid throughout the game. Even hardening her doesn't have too much of an effect on this. Hardening just convinces her that she belongs on the road as a rogue, and that her life in the cloister is over, that she no longer has to hide from Marjolaine, or from herself. Her actual standards never change.

Unless my character is a psychic, they will not know, or be given any hint, under any circumstances, that Zevran is capable of changing and taking a relationship seriously -- not until you are very late in the game and already have his romance running that is.

Then again.. it does occur to me.. that while I am not one of them, a lot of women will try (and admit to it) to change their lover. My girlfriend is one *sigh*. And she has changed me in some small ways, for the better, and I appreciate that to some degree (at least she can admit it).. but I'm the kind of woman to just take things "as is". I see Zevran, and I see a promiscuous assassin with no desire to change or have a real relationship. I don't see a "project".

THAT makes a lot more sense to me than, "He grosses me out."  I do agree with you to a huge extent.

The difference is, with my wardens who romance him, is they, by necessity, are not looking long term.

Also, though, straight from the beginning almost, Zevran WILL have a talk with the warden where he establishes, whether they're friends, FWB, or more.  He does this at an even lower threshhold than Leliana.  He DOES ask if it's possible that they will remain together after the blight is dealt with, and in what capacity.  This also can be taken since he has indentured himself to the warden, but there are the dialog choices where he's asking, "will we be together as more than friends," and if you answer, "I'd like that," he agrees that he would as well.

Edit: Of course, you can just tell him there's always a use for a handsome elf, and he likes that as well.  My only point is you don't have to play it as a FWB at the start; you really can play it as a reasonably committed relationship on both ends.

Yeah, I know, as I said, I romanced him once.. I just don't think he's comfortable with you trying to make it more than it is until the end when he realizes.. "Oh wait.. I love her! What the heck do I do now!?"

But he DOES know, and mans up quite well once you ask him about it.  And that confession is HARD for him for sure.  But sex becomes an expression of love, and unless she loves him back, he can't be with her.  But he does press for a commitment (possibly as an engagement, though not necessarily).

BW messed up so badly, though, at the end.  His gates dialog was completely bugged and he was giving his lover his friendship lines which I think ended the romance on a very bad note for many people.

[Aisynia]

It's not uncommon for women to get love and lust mixed up and I think this is part of Leliana's character. She lusts after strong leaders (Marjolaine & the Warden) and demands love in return - not even waiting for the relationship to grow before she confronts the Warden and demands a commitment.

*facepalm* *sigh*

Men.

[Aisynia]

ejoslin wrote...

Aisynia wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Aisynia wrote...
I'm aware of that, but like I said, his standards CHANGE, while Leliana's are rock solid throughout the game. Even hardening her doesn't have too much of an effect on this. Hardening just convinces her that she belongs on the road as a rogue, and that her life in the cloister is over, that she no longer has to hide from Marjolaine, or from herself. Her actual standards never change.

Unless my character is a psychic, they will not know, or be given any hint, under any circumstances, that Zevran is capable of changing and taking a relationship seriously -- not until you are very late in the game and already have his romance running that is.

Then again.. it does occur to me.. that while I am not one of them, a lot of women will try (and admit to it) to change their lover. My girlfriend is one *sigh*. And she has changed me in some small ways, for the better, and I appreciate that to some degree (at least she can admit it).. but I'm the kind of woman to just take things "as is". I see Zevran, and I see a promiscuous assassin with no desire to change or have a real relationship. I don't see a "project".

THAT makes a lot more sense to me than, "He grosses me out."  I do agree with you to a huge extent.

The difference is, with my wardens who romance him, is they, by necessity, are not looking long term.

Also, though, straight from the beginning almost, Zevran WILL have a talk with the warden where he establishes, whether they're friends, FWB, or more.  He does this at an even lower threshhold than Leliana.  He DOES ask if it's possible that they will remain together after the blight is dealt with, and in what capacity.  This also can be taken since he has indentured himself to the warden, but there are the dialog choices where he's asking, "will we be together as more than friends," and if you answer, "I'd like that," he agrees that he would as well.

Edit: Of course, you can just tell him there's always a use for a handsome elf, and he likes that as well.  My only point is you don't have to play it as a FWB at the start; you really can play it as a reasonably committed relationship on both ends.

Yeah, I know, as I said, I romanced him once.. I just don't think he's comfortable with you trying to make it more than it is until the end when he realizes.. "Oh wait.. I love her! What the heck do I do now!?"

But he DOES know, and mans up quite well once you ask him about it.  And that confession is HARD for him for sure.  But sex becomes an expression of love, and unless she loves him back, he can't be with her.  But he does press for a commitment (possibly as an engagement, though not necessarily).

BW messed up so badly, though, at the end.  His gates dialog was completely bugged and he was giving his lover his friendship lines which I think ended the romance on a very bad note for many people.

Not arguing on that.

And his gates dialogue is bugged?

[ejoslin]

Aisynia wrote...

Not arguing on that.

And his gates dialogue is bugged?

For most people, yes, if you take him with you, you get his friendship dialog.  Some people don't have that (though I have no clue WHY it would work for them unless it was patch 1.01 which buggered it).  If you can't tell him you love him there, you're getting the wrong dialog.  If you're interested, this is the proper dialog (video NOT made by me).

Edit: I fail at formatting.

Modifié par ejoslin, 25 avril 2010 - 04:15 .

[webbedfeet]

.....I'm starting to think that ALL the dialogue fixes need better exposure. >_> It frustrates me to think the story misses its point because the code is screwed up, and people don't know it.



On seriousness : Zev is one of those romances that I think work less well if you're going there with the full intentions of getting him. It works, but it's less touching than things progressing naturally and he doesn't really know what you want. Or maybe I'm not making sense. Too much coffee this morning. >_>

[Aisynia]

Elps wrote...

Aisynia wrote...

It's not uncommon for women to get love and lust mixed up and I think this is part of Leliana's character. She lusts after strong leaders (Marjolaine & the Warden) and demands love in return - not even waiting for the relationship to grow before she confronts the Warden and demands a commitment.

*facepalm* *sigh*

Men.

No. Don't let a simple thing like an avatar fool you. But if you have never had a relationship with a woman who apparently falls passionately in love after having sex, but before you both really know each other, then you are lucky. Or I've been unlucky, or something.

You know, it's possible for someone just to be capable of falling in love easily.

I have been with my girlfriend for a year. We fell in love with one another the very moment we met. It's very real, and simply dismissing that this is possible is an injustice.

Leliana is a good person with a genuine heart.

Besides, she won't sleep with you until she is at Love status.. kinda goes against the grain of what you are claiming.

Someone being mildly possessive or jealous while they are falling in love isn't unnatural either. If she is falling head over heels for you, and then learns you slept with Zevran, you expect her to just say "well whatever" when you have said things to her which are leading her on into thinking you want to be with her?

I would certainly bring it up. I would want to know where I stood as well, or at least try to understand the situation better..

Modifié par Aisynia, 25 avril 2010 - 04:23 .

[ejoslin]

webbedfeet wrote...

.....I'm starting to think that ALL the dialogue fixes need better exposure. >_> It frustrates me to think the story misses its point because the code is screwed up, and people don't know it.

On seriousness : Zev is one of those romances that I think work less well if you're going there with the full intentions of getting him. It works, but it's less touching than things progressing naturally and he doesn't really know what you want. Or maybe I'm not making sense. Too much coffee this morning. >_>

I agree with you.  It's something to accept that you're with someone who has that part of him guarded, but who cares for you deeply and will be loyal to you forever.  Then that person has no choice but to let go and fall in love -- it's amazing. 

[sylvanaerie]

*shrug* I like him better as a friend. I like them all as friends. Thinking of my next Cousland run trying to marry my boy to Anora and romancing no one.

[Aisynia]

Elps wrote...

For me, in real life, I never trust emotions that are given too easily and quickly.

First, remember that the game takes place over the course of a year.

Secondly, the quoted section strikes amazingly close to home for me..

I'm not sure how to properly explain this without calling you ignorant and risking insulting you, so let me try and explain, and maybe you will be open minded enough to reconsider your stance, as you may end up hurting someone you could have cared for when they were perfectly genuine.

I have a mental condition whereby I feel emotions on a daily basis that are significantly more intense and powerful than most people will ever feel in their entire lives.

Deep connections and powerful emotions given quickly and easily are an unavoidable biological fact for me. It's just how I live, it's the only existence I know. I know about it, I'm aware of the differences in my logical mind, but it's just who I am, and I have trouble understanding people who don't feel on this deeper level. I don't understand what it would be like to live with so much emptiness.

One of my doctors said that the best way to explain it for the benefit of others would be an example: Imagine how you would feel at the funeral of someone you loved very dearly, someone very important to you. That incredible, almost crushing sadness has a powerful intensity to it, overwhelming, but genuine. Now take away that negative emotion, the sadness, and leave the intensity of it by itself. Apply that intensity to ANYTHING you might feel. Joy, love, boredom, anxiety, anything.

That is my world.

And while I can I suppose understand the mistrust of strong emotions given easily if you have been lied to in the past, or if you are a person who doesn't give feelings easily yourself (I don't know you, so I am making no proclomations abotu who you are or why you feel that way), to simply discount them no matter what is.. it just feels very unfair to someone like me, who is incapable of anything else.

You're saying to me that you would mistrust or even spurn my feelings for you (platonic or romantic, doesn't matter) because I felt them too easily or quickly. But my feelings are perfectly valid, they are strong yes. They are quick to come, yes. But they are real, and they are permanent.

I fell in love with my girlfriend the moment we met.. and perhaps we have a future.. perhaps we don't.. but that feeling will never go away. I love her, I have loved her from the moment I met her, and I will never stop loving her.

I'm sorry but, you can't just paint everyone with the same brush. Well, I suppose you can, but that doesn't make it right.

Modifié par Aisynia, 25 avril 2010 - 05:16 .

[spell trigger]

Most of my characters are females, and they usually end up with Zevran.

I think that "unhappy ending" of Alistair's romance is one of the best parts of the game. I know that "happy ending" is also available, but Alistair making sacrifices (in order to fulfill his duty as a king) fits much better into the DAO story.

Morrigan's romance is awesome for similar reasons (unhappy ending, especially when Dark Ritual offer is not accepted).

My preferred romance option is Zevran because I think that he has much better understanding of the PC than Alistair. My characters are not ambitious or power hungry (i.e. they are not interested in spending their life at the court) - they simply enjoy proving themselves at the battleground. At the end of the game, they prefer to continue their "career" as Grey Wardens (rebuilding the order).

For that reason, I believe that Anora is much better option for Alistair (the best political marriage/alliance for the Fereldan).

Zevran is reliable companion (romanced or not) that offers his advice in most of the major quests. When compared to all other companions, Zevran had the worst past (which is not surprising for an elf in this game). His ability to survive such dark past and his inner strength are really impressive.

Most of my characters were also caged by their own past/origin, and I think that it is something that they have in common with Zevran (in one of the conversations, Zevran will even compare his own life to warden's).

In addition, Zevran's dialogs and party banters are interesting and sometimes hilarious - so it's always fun to have him in the party (romanced or not).

I have completed only one playthrough with male PC - a Dalish Elf. He romanced Leliana (for the achievement), but his main romance was with Morrigan (he didn't accept the Dark Ritual offer).

In most of my playthroughs, Leliana is at the camp or opening locks in areas that were already cleared by the "main" party members. I find her to be a bit boring (endless dialogues, "too sweet" voice, etc.), but I can understand people that enjoy her as the romance option in the game.

I think that Morrigan is the best female character in the game - as a romance option or simply as a friend for female wardens (amazing voice acting, great party banters and dialogue lines, interesting ending, etc.).

[ArawnNox]

Ah, I'm back and thrilled by everyone's responses.

Makes me want to put a lot more thought into how I choose my responses to dialogue options. I have a tendency to want to get everyone's approval up and I end up choosing options that lead to that end. Need to stop thinking like a gamer and more like a character and I'll probably get so much more out of the game.

Aisynia, your stories about you and your GF make me "D'aww"

[Sarah1281]

Just play as a character that wants everyone to love them or is obsessed with their reputation and it all works out the same.

[ArawnNox]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Just play as a character that wants everyone to love them or is obsessed with their reputation and it all works out the same.

lulz ^^

[nos_astra]

spell trigger wrote...
I think that "unhappy ending" of Alistair's romance is one of the best parts of the game. I know that "happy ending" is also available, but Alistair making sacrifices (in order to fulfill his duty as a king) fits much better into the DAO story.

Alistair has several endings and even the happier endings aren't always easy, that's why I like the romance so much. I never pick the same ending and my favourite ending at the moment is to send him away at the Landsmeet after I spared Loghain and recruited him into the Wardens. It was tricky to roleplay (because I don't see many reasons to spare him) but I loved how hard it was to play through the Final Onslaught ... and how Awakening was full of double entendre.

What a way to end a romance.
I hope I can finish a character where they end up together as Wardens to make up for the heartbreak I caused on the last playthrough. The happiest ending you can get for them.

Modifié par klarabella, 25 avril 2010 - 07:14 .

[Yendi]

spell trigger wrote...

I think that "unhappy ending" of Alistair's romance is one of the best parts of the game. I know that "happy ending" is also available, but Alistair making sacrifices (in order to fulfill his duty as a king) fits much better into the DAO story.

Finally someone agrees with me on this, I recently said something similar in another thread. Alistair is not my favourite romance but I was really impressed with him as a character and the game story at that moment.