190 réponses à ce sujet

[ejoslin]

Hmmmm, thinking about it, Zevran really is the most loyal of the love interests, with Leliana a very close second. Everyone DOES have a breaking point once they're in love. Zevran's is the warden not loving him or not being willing to make a commitment. Leliana's is the ashes, but she can be talked down from that.



I don't have a real point here, but I find it a bit interesting is all. I never thought about what causes a love interest to leave their partner in that context.

[Aisynia]

sylvanaerie wrote...

That's why this game is so much fun. To each his own. You dislike him but others don't feel the same.

Everyone has their breaking point Aisynia. Alistair has the potential to be one of the most loyal Love Interests depending on how you play your game. Of course if you push his trigger hes going to leave you. You just stabbed him in the back by letting his worst enemy live. What of all the people who died because of Loghain's actions? They don't get a chance for their voice to be heard, in my mind, Alistair is all the voice they get.

If you harden him, he fights for your love and refuses to set you aside for duty. Its all in what you do, how you play the game.

I will address this point by point.

I like Alistair just fine. He has one major flaw that continuously pisses me off: He's a child.

Yes, everyone has their breaking point, but if he was truly in love, and truly devoted, he wouldn't abandon his lover so suddenly and so completely.

Yes, you spared his worst enemy.. and so ****ing what? It's now WRONG to NOT kill someone when they SURRENDER? He is leaving you for NOT being the monster he sees Loghain to be. That's terribly hypocrytical.

As for all those people Loghain killed.. killing him doesn't bring them back. Two wrongs don't make a right. He surrendered, he yielded. Administering an execution right then and there just feels terribly wrong and monstrous to me.

[webbedfeet]

I just figured that at that moment, Alistair realized he has never known the real you. The Warden he fell in love with, the person whom he thought the Warden to be, would never spare Loghain and let him join their ranks. That person never existed. He might be wrong for thinking this because then, in that case, he never saw the real you. But that doesn't mean he was wrong for being hurt.

The first moment you realize that about someone, it could be excruciating. It's worse than being cheated on, worse than being betrayed. To know that someone who was such an integral part of how he views the world was never what he thought s/he was...why should all those words that he spoke to you hold, then? He had just realized, or thought he realized, that he was speaking those words to thin air. He wouldn't stop to think that you might be hurt, too.

I don't blame Alistair for what he did. It's understandable.

It's not because 'you spared Loghain'. It's because he 'has never known you'.

P.S. As far as devotion goes, Zevran is totally my go-to guy. Does he realize what effect that 'storming the Dark City' comment has on a mage, who spent his entire life being told that his kind's hubris in entering the Black City caused the world to go down the drain? Gah!

Modifié par webbedfeet, 26 avril 2010 - 01:07 .

[Axekix]

Aisynia wrote...

I wouldn't stay with someone who placed their hatred for another person over their love for me. That's just wrong.

I won't call it petty because he had plenty of reason to hate him. However, when you place hatred for en enemy above your love for your significant other, you have your priorities wrong.. just to start.

That's certainly not what I call devotion.

Well, to defend Alistair (I can't believe I'm doing this) it really seems like the people criticising him over the Loghain thing aren't taking his feelings into consideration at all. 

I mean you say he's putting his hatred for Loghain above his love for the PC.  I disagree.  I think he's put his faith in you to put your love for him above whatever allegieance you have to Anora/Loghain, and when he sees you won't he feels completely betrayed (imo rightfully so). 

[LadyDamodred]

This has been discussed to death, but I shall recap.



If you spare Loghain, especially in a romance, you are betraying him. Like syl says, you stab him in the back; you throw away your love first. Everyone has a breaking point and that is his. He reaction is completely appropriate for the situation. In fact, if he were to react any differently, I would be pissed.



To him, it is not "You spared the guy who surrended."

It's "You spared the guy who has plunged my country into civil war, has committed the very atrocities he once fought against, killed my brother and king, killed the closest thing to a father I ever had, killed all of our order and blamed them for said deaths, has tried repeatedly to kill not only me but the last remaining person I love."



It does not matter how *you* see it. That is how *he* sees it, and thus his reaction is not only appropriate, but should be expected.

[Aisynia]

ejoslin wrote...

Hmmmm, thinking about it, Zevran really is the most loyal of the love interests, with Leliana a very close second. Everyone DOES have a breaking point once they're in love. Zevran's is the warden not loving him or not being willing to make a commitment. Leliana's is the ashes, but she can be talked down from that.

I don't have a real point here, but I find it a bit interesting is all. I never thought about what causes a love interest to leave their partner in that context.

I'd say Zev and Leli are even on the loyalty scale. Once they are in love with you (and Leli hardened), almost NOTHING will make them leave you or betray you.

Furthermore, as long as you are the person they thought you were, then there's nothing to worry about.

That's what gets me with Alistair.. you can go through the entire game sparing the lives of murderers, assassins, and blood mages... and then he is surprised when you spare someone who surrenders? Like, really Alistair? Are you that ****ing dense? You KNOW who you're with. Did you somehow think this merciful person was going to behead the guy who surrendered, horrible person or not?

[Axekix]

LadyDamodred wrote...

In fact, if he were to react any differently, I would be pissed.

Agreed.  Even Alistair isn't that much of a doormat.

[sylvanaerie]

Aisynia wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

That's why this game is so much fun. To each his own. You dislike him but others don't feel the same.

Everyone has their breaking point Aisynia. Alistair has the potential to be one of the most loyal Love Interests depending on how you play your game. Of course if you push his trigger hes going to leave you. You just stabbed him in the back by letting his worst enemy live. What of all the people who died because of Loghain's actions? They don't get a chance for their voice to be heard, in my mind, Alistair is all the voice they get.

If you harden him, he fights for your love and refuses to set you aside for duty. Its all in what you do, how you play the game.

I will address this point by point.

I like Alistair just fine. He has one major flaw that continuously pisses me off: He's a child.

Yes, everyone has their breaking point, but if he was truly in love, and truly devoted, he wouldn't abandon his lover so suddenly and so completely.

Yes, you spared his worst enemy.. and so ****ing what? It's now WRONG to NOT kill someone when they SURRENDER? He is leaving you for NOT being the monster he sees Loghain to be. That's terribly hypocrytical.

As for all those people Loghain killed.. killing him doesn't bring them back. Two wrongs don't make a right. He surrendered, he yielded. Administering an execution right then and there just feels terribly wrong and monstrous to me.

Not to me it doesn't. Its justice plain and simple.  Loghain  hasn't surrendered.  You beat him. There is a difference.  And even after you spare him he is still the arrogant ****** he was prior to the Landsmeet, only changing at the last minute before feeding him to the Archdemon. 

Loghain if he wins sure as hell wouldn't offer you the same mercy.  (IE its game over if you fall in the duel).  If he wins at the landsmeet he immediately orders the execution of the PC, Alistair and Eamon.  So no I think is purely logical to execute him.  I don't trust him and I sure as hell wouldn't reward him by making him a Gray Warden and giving this man a hero's death at the Archdemon.

You call Alistair a child and yes he does act childish at this point but Loghain is no saint either.  He caused untold misery and destruction and betrayed everything he supposedly was fighting for.  I find him a whiney childish hypocrit of a man pointing the finger of blame at everyone but himself all the while insisting HE is the only true patriot of Ferelden.

I hate the execution scene ONLY because it happens right in front of Anora.  No child should have to witness something like that. If there were an option to remove her from the room first I would love to execute him, have Wynne rez him and do it again and again.  I hate him that much.

[Aisynia]

LadyDamodred wrote...

If you spare Loghain, especially in a romance, you are betraying him.

*sigh* I would call bull**** but I read a post from his writer to the same effect, and a writer's word is law. that doesn't make it a GOOD deduction on Alistair's part though. If Alistair WANTS me to behead a man who surrendered when I have spent the game sparing assassins, murderers and blood mages when asked for mercy, he apparently doesn't love who he thought he did, or he just deluded himself.

[Aisynia]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Not to me it doesn't. Its justice plain and simple.  Loghain  hasn't surrendered. 

Justice is not killing someone on the spot. He yielded and admitted you as his better. That is surrender. Laid down arms and gave up the fight.

[Axekix]

Aisynia wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...

If you spare Loghain, especially in a romance, you are betraying him.

*sigh* I would call bull**** but I read a post from his writer to the same effect, and a writer's word is law. that doesn't make it a GOOD deduction on Alistair's part though. If Alistair WANTS me to behead a man who surrendered when I have spent the game sparing assassins, murderers and blood mages when asked for mercy, he apparently doesn't love who he thought he did, or he just deluded himself.

Surely you can see how it would be quite a bit more personal to him than random blood mage or assassing #32143... right?

Modifié par Axekix, 26 avril 2010 - 01:13 .

[Aisynia]

Axekix wrote...

Aisynia wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...

If you spare Loghain, especially in a romance, you are betraying him.

*sigh* I would call bull**** but I read a post from his writer to the same effect, and a writer's word is law. that doesn't make it a GOOD deduction on Alistair's part though. If Alistair WANTS me to behead a man who surrendered when I have spent the game sparing assassins, murderers and blood mages when asked for mercy, he apparently doesn't love who he thought he did, or he just deluded himself.

Surely you can see how it would be quite a bit more personal to him than random blood mage or assassing #32143... right?

Of course, that still doesn't make it right.

Point stands that Alistair's need for REVENGE (not justice) is more powerful than his love and need for the PC.

[sylvanaerie]

Aisynia wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

Not to me it doesn't. Its justice plain and simple.  Loghain  hasn't surrendered. 

Justice is not killing someone on the spot. He yielded and admitted you as his better. That is surrender. Laid down arms and gave up the fight.

This is justice.  This is Ferelden not the 21st Century.  Thats what passed for justice in the times the game is based on.  And yes I am an "eye for an eye" type of person. 

[sylvanaerie]

webbedfeet wrote...

I just figured that at that moment, Alistair realized he has never known the real you. The Warden he fell in love with, the person whom he thought the Warden to be, would never spare Loghain and let him join their ranks. That person never existed. He might be wrong for thinking this because then, in that case, he never saw the real you. But that doesn't mean he was wrong for being hurt.

The first moment you realize that about someone, it could be excruciating. It's worse than being cheated on, worse than being betrayed. To know that someone who was such an integral part of how he views the world was never what he thought s/he was...why should all those words that he spoke to you hold, then? He had just realized, or thought he realized, that he was speaking those words to thin air. He wouldn't stop to think that you might be hurt, too.

I don't blame Alistair for what he did. It's understandable.

It's not because 'you spared Loghain'. It's because he 'has never known you'.

P.S. As far as devotion goes, Zevran is totally my go-to guy. Does he realize what effect that 'storming the Dark City' comment has on a mage, who spent his entire life being told that his kind's hubris in entering the Black City caused the world to go down the drain? Gah!

LOL Ejoslin's fix gave me that line as a friend too.  I was so touched by it.  Zev is definitely my BFF any playthrough!

[LadyDamodred]

Aisynia wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...

If you spare Loghain, especially in a romance, you are betraying him.

*sigh* I would call bull**** but I read a post from his writer to the same effect, and a writer's word is law. that doesn't make it a GOOD deduction on Alistair's part though. If Alistair WANTS me to behead a man who surrendered when I have spent the game sparing assassins, murderers and blood mages when asked for mercy, he apparently doesn't love who he thought he did, or he just deluded himself.

Can you really not put yourself in Alistair's boots and see it from his PoV?  Is it truly inconceivable that he has this expectation?  He's only mentioned it the whole game.

And the duel is not a matter of honor or anything like that.  You and Loghain are two people battling to determine the fate of a nation.  You are mortal enemies, and have spent the entire game opposing and trying to take each other out.  What did you expect to happen at the Landsmeet?

Note:  On my very first play through, I had no idea what exactly would go down at the Landsmeet.  So when Loghain surrended, I accepted.  Then Alistair went all !  And I was all "Holy sh*t!  Sorry!  Sorry!  You're right!  *stabby-stab*"  At that moment, I was so wrapped up in current events that I forgot about everything.  Very bad RPing on my part.  Alistair reminded me of what I was supposed to be doing.

Edit for emphasis.

Modifié par LadyDamodred, 26 avril 2010 - 01:20 .

[Sarah1281]

he apparently doesn't love who he thought he did, or he just deluded himself.

He probably thinks that as well.

[Aisynia]

For all the wrong reasons though. He's angry at you for not committing murder by killing an unarmed man who surrendered.



Anyways I'm tired and I'm probably done talking for right now. I don't wanna argue.



*hugs thread*

[Axekix]

Aisynia wrote...

Axekix wrote...

Aisynia wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...

If you spare Loghain, especially in a romance, you are betraying him.

*sigh* I would call bull**** but I read a post from his writer to the same effect, and a writer's word is law. that doesn't make it a GOOD deduction on Alistair's part though. If Alistair WANTS me to behead a man who surrendered when I have spent the game sparing assassins, murderers and blood mages when asked for mercy, he apparently doesn't love who he thought he did, or he just deluded himself.

Surely you can see how it would be quite a bit more personal to him than random blood mage or assassing #32143... right?

Of course, that still doesn't make it right.

Point stands that Alistair's need for REVENGE (not justice) is more powerful than his love and need for the PC.

Not right?

It seems pretty unrealistic to me to expect anyone to just unconditionally love someone who sides with their family's killer over them

[LadyDamodred]

Aisynia wrote...

For all the wrong reasons though. He's angry at you for not committing murder by killing an unarmed man who surrendered.

Anyways I'm tired and I'm probably done talking for right now. I don't wanna argue.

*hugs thread*

I won't say it's arguing.  From my perspective, you don't seem to understand Alistair's PoV or reasoning, and so I think what's happening is most people are trying to elucidate you.  I could be wrong, and if so, I apologize.  For the record, I can debate this from the other side almost as easily, but I stick with these points because I agree with them fully.

I think it is a testament to the character, much like Loghain, that he can inspire so much debate and discussion. 

[Merilsell]

webbedfeet wrote...

I just figured that at that moment, Alistair realized he has never known the real you. The Warden he fell in love with, the person whom he thought the Warden to be, would never spare Loghain and let him join their ranks. That person never existed. He might be wrong for thinking this because then, in that case, he never saw the real you. But that doesn't mean he was wrong for being hurt.

The first moment you realize that about someone, it could be excruciating. It's worse than being cheated on, worse than being betrayed. To know that someone who was such an integral part of how he views the world was never what he thought s/he was...why should all those words that he spoke to you hold, then? He had just realized, or thought he realized, that he was speaking those words to thin air. He wouldn't stop to think that you might be hurt, too.

I don't blame Alistair for what he did. It's understandable.

It's not because 'you spared Loghain'. It's because he 'has never known you'.

Exactly. This this and thousand times THIS. I'm happy you put that so good in words, really. Saves me the work 

If you love him, it's clear that he EXPECTS that you back him up.  Instead --when you take that Loghain route- you are doing the utter opposite of it, you take everything what you have (or he believed the PC and he had) and spit on it. I think his reaction is so emotional because he loves the PC so much and would
have never EXPECTED it from her, which brings me back to webbedfeet's
post.

Also if you know Alistair's character than this reaction is far from being surprising/shocking, more so understandable imo. I would have been really pissed, if you would have been able to bend him in this situation or talk him out of it.

It makes him human as a character. But hey, maybe that is just me *shrug*

Other's than that I think this post explains it best.

[Aisynia]

LadyDamodred wrote...

Aisynia wrote...

For all the wrong reasons though. He's angry at you for not committing murder by killing an unarmed man who surrendered.

Anyways I'm tired and I'm probably done talking for right now. I don't wanna argue.

*hugs thread*

I won't say it's arguing.  From my perspective, you don't seem to understand Alistair's PoV or reasoning, and so I think what's happening is most people are trying to elucidate you.  I could be wrong, and if so, I apologize.  For the record, I can debate this from the other side almost as easily, but I stick with these points because I agree with them fully.

I think it is a testament to the character, much like Loghain, that he can inspire so much debate and discussion. 

I understand and even sympathize with Alistair's position. I just think it's wrong.

[Sarah1281]

I think one of the problems is that Alistair mentions how much he hates Loghain what, twice? Once at Flemeth's when he's in shock and once at Eamon's estate if he's hardened when he says people like Anora and her father can't be trusted. If he had more dialogue about him it would be harder to overlook and people would be less surprised when it happens even though in hindsight it may be obvious. When Alistair finds out Loghain had Eamon poisoned, for instance. Or 'it figures Loghain would ally himself with a man like this' at Howe's when they uncover his depravity.

[Axekix]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I think one of the problems is that Alistair mentions how much he hates Loghain what, twice? Once at Flemeth's when he's in shock and once at Eamon's estate if he's hardened when he says people like Anora and her father can't be trusted. If he had more dialogue about him it would be harder to overlook and people would be less surprised when it happens even though in hindsight it may be obvious. When Alistair finds out Loghain had Eamon poisoned, for instance. Or 'it figures Loghain would ally himself with a man like this' at Howe's when they uncover his depravity.

Hmm?  I thought his feelings were made pretty clear tbh.  I mean almost all of his "Duncan" convos end with him choking up towards the end.  I never really saw it as a grey area personally.

Modifié par Axekix, 26 avril 2010 - 02:28 .

[Sarah1281]

That's 'I miss Duncan' not 'Loghain is an evil bastard who must die.'