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[Axekix]

Sarah1281 wrote...

That's 'I miss Duncan' not 'Loghain is an evil bastard who must die.'

Yes, but Alistair has never been the broody type. 

It's pretty clear how badly he takes Duncan's death, so it's no surprise to me that he'd want Loghain's head.  Playing a HN makes it much easier to relate to his feelings imo.

[LadyDamodred]

Merilsell wrote...

webbedfeet wrote...

I just figured that at that moment, Alistair realized he has never known the real you. The Warden he fell in love with, the person whom he thought the Warden to be, would never spare Loghain and let him join their ranks. That person never existed. He might be wrong for thinking this because then, in that case, he never saw the real you. But that doesn't mean he was wrong for being hurt.

The first moment you realize that about someone, it could be excruciating. It's worse than being cheated on, worse than being betrayed. To know that someone who was such an integral part of how he views the world was never what he thought s/he was...why should all those words that he spoke to you hold, then? He had just realized, or thought he realized, that he was speaking those words to thin air. He wouldn't stop to think that you might be hurt, too.

I don't blame Alistair for what he did. It's understandable.

It's not because 'you spared Loghain'. It's because he 'has never known you'.

Exactly. This this and thousand times THIS. I'm happy you put that so good in words, really. Saves me the work 

If you love him, it's clear that he EXPECTS that you back him up.  Instead --when you take that Loghain route- you are doing the utter opposite of it, you take everything what you have (or he believed the PC and he had) and spit on it. I think his reaction is so emotional because he loves the PC so much and would
have never EXPECTED it from her, which brings me back to webbedfeet's
post.

Also if you know Alistair's character than this reaction is far from being surprising/shocking, more so understandable imo. I would have been really pissed, if you would have been able to bend him in this situation or talk him out of it.

It makes him human as a character. But hey, maybe that is just me *shrug*

Other's than that I think this post explains it best.

[Sarah1281]

Axekix wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

That's 'I miss Duncan' not 'Loghain is an evil bastard who must die.'

Yes, but Alistair has never been the broody type. 

It's pretty clear how badly he takes Duncan's death, so it's no surprise to me that he'd want Loghain's head.  Playing a HN makes it much easier to relate to his feelings imo.

Alistair goes straight from 'why would Loghain leave? He's a hero? I don't understand' to 'Kill him already!' at the Landsmeet with only the 'people like Anora and Loghain think they're the only ones who can solve anything and everyone else should just get out of their way' which, while not complimentary, hardly screams 'I think Loghain is a complete monster.' There's no proof that Loghain could have won the battle at Ostagar and Alistair doesn't know he chose to quit the field the moment he saw the Beacon. We just see that Alistair is confused and conflicted and then suddenly he's projected all his survivor's guilt onto Loghain and sees him as the embodiment of evil without really ever mentioning it to anyone. It's understandable, yes, and might not be wrong but it isn't really spelled out until right before or even at the Landsmeet.

[ashez2ashes]

There's hints of Alistair's 'Logain hangup' during your first coversation with Eamon. If you mention trying to make peace with Logain Alistair says angrily "I hope your joking" (or something close to that).

[LadyDamodred]

When he talks to you about going to see Goldana, you can tell him 'Loghain will get what's coming to him.' and his response is "I know that."

[Axekix]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Axekix wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

That's 'I miss Duncan' not 'Loghain is an evil bastard who must die.'

Yes, but Alistair has never been the broody type. 

It's pretty clear how badly he takes Duncan's death, so it's no surprise to me that he'd want Loghain's head.  Playing a HN makes it much easier to relate to his feelings imo.

Alistair goes straight from 'why would Loghain leave? He's a hero? I don't understand' to 'Kill him already!' at the Landsmeet with only the 'people like Anora and Loghain think they're the only ones who can solve anything and everyone else should just get out of their way' which, while not complimentary, hardly screams 'I think Loghain is a complete monster.' There's no proof that Loghain could have won the battle at Ostagar and Alistair doesn't know he chose to quit the field the moment he saw the Beacon. We just see that Alistair is confused and conflicted and then suddenly he's projected all his survivor's guilt onto Loghain and sees him as the embodiment of evil without really ever mentioning it to anyone. It's understandable, yes, and might not be wrong but it isn't really spelled out until right before or even at the Landsmeet.

Hmm, I could've sworn he says something to the effect of "we can't let Loghain get away with this" at flemeth's hut.  I could be wrong, (I haven't played through that part in a while) but I don't see many other ways to interpret a statement like that.

Granted he doesn't go on about how much he wants to kill Loghain, but again that's not really in his nature.  I think it's something that the PC should be able to intuit fairly easily.

[sylvanaerie]

There are several hints through the game if you choose the right dialogue options. He doesn't go straight from Flemeth's to Landsmeet without dropping a few clues in conversations. I tend to pick one dialogue tree and then reload and pick another just to see what would happen if I chose something else. You can unlock some real gems that way.



Of course thats how I learned you can still be an utter ass to Nelaros and he will still give his life to rescue your CEF *sniff* poor guy.

[Sarah1281]

I agree that there were hints but a lot of people seemed to ignore them or didn't get those options and thus were taken completely by surprise whereas if he were more upfront about his desire to kill Loghain it wouldn't be a problem.

[Merilsell]

Concerning Alistair's character and what the Grey Warden/Duncan have meant to him, it's pretty much a no-brainer that he despises Loghain.



Since Loghain was the one, who robbed him from the closest he ever known of a family, it's pretty much obvious HOW Alistair feels about Loghain. Period.



Maybe it's just me but I didn't need OMG DIE DIE DIE LOGHAAAAIN!!!!11! - dialogues from Alistair to recognize his utter resentment.



Aside that this isn't Alistair's way of expressing it anyway, of course.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Axekix wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

That's 'I miss Duncan' not 'Loghain is an evil bastard who must die.'

Yes, but Alistair has never been the broody type. 

It's pretty clear how badly he takes Duncan's death, so it's no surprise to me that he'd want Loghain's head.  Playing a HN makes it much easier to relate to his feelings imo.

Alistair goes straight from 'why would Loghain leave? He's a hero? I don't understand' to 'Kill him already!' at the Landsmeet with only the 'people like Anora and Loghain think they're the only ones who can solve anything and everyone else should just get out of their way' which, while not complimentary, hardly screams 'I think Loghain is a complete monster.' There's no proof that Loghain could have won the battle at Ostagar and Alistair doesn't know he chose to quit the field the moment he saw the Beacon. We just see that Alistair is confused and conflicted and then suddenly he's projected all his survivor's guilt onto Loghain and sees him as the embodiment of evil without really ever mentioning it to anyone. It's understandable, yes, and might not be wrong but it isn't really spelled out until right before or even at the Landsmeet.

Sigh. There's no proof either way if Ostagar was a win or loss. It's a moot point.

And Alistair DOES mention wanting revenge on Loghain well before Landsmeet. In a couple convo options, where you tell him to shut up about duncan or stop crying. It's quite clear by that point, Loghain is already dying excruitiatingly in Alistair's imagination. There are also a couple more places where Alistair mentions wanting Loghain dead. So it's not like it just jumped out at the Landsmeet. It's been brewing for a long time.

[webbedfeet]

Merilsell wrote...

Concerning Alistair's character and what the Grey Warden/Duncan have meant to him, it's pretty much a no-brainer that he despises Loghain.

Since Loghain was the one, who robbed him from the closest he ever known of a family, it's pretty much obvious HOW Alistair feels about Loghain. Period.

Maybe it's just me but I didn't need OMG DIE DIE DIE LOGHAAAAIN!!!!11! - dialogues from Alistair to recognize his utter resentment.

Aside that this isn't Alistair's way of expressing it anyway, of course.

Let's not forget further points :
- Loghain allegedly tried to kill Arl Eamon. You know how Alistair feels about Arl Eamon and his family. Remember that giant ass-chewing if you off Isolde or Connor? Yeah. And that's for attempted murder.
- Loghain also killed his brother. While there isn't much love lost between Alistair and Cailan, it's been hinted at here and there that something was indeed there.
- Alistair was of the belief that Ostagar wouldn't have been lost if Loghain didn't pull back. I disagree, but he probably believed that for a whole year. When you tell yourself something for that long, it becomes fact to you.

I like Loghain. He's like a tragic mabari hound, not quite a puppy but still huggable. I actually spare him quite often. From Alistair's point of view, however, such a decision would be extremely heartless of you in regards to him, indeed. Everything that he had and loved, he lost due to Loghain. And if you spare him, he actually lost you, or at least his image of you, to Loghain too. Understandable.

And I'm not even really an Alistair fan...

[eucatastrophe]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Axekix wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

That's 'I miss Duncan' not 'Loghain is an evil bastard who must die.'

Yes, but Alistair has never been the broody type. 

It's pretty clear how badly he takes Duncan's death, so it's no surprise to me that he'd want Loghain's head.  Playing a HN makes it much easier to relate to his feelings imo.

Alistair goes straight from 'why would Loghain leave? He's a hero? I don't understand' to 'Kill him already!' at the Landsmeet with only the 'people like Anora and Loghain think they're the only ones who can solve anything and everyone else should just get out of their way' which, while not complimentary, hardly screams 'I think Loghain is a complete monster.' There's no proof that Loghain could have won the battle at Ostagar and Alistair doesn't know he chose to quit the field the moment he saw the Beacon. We just see that Alistair is confused and conflicted and then suddenly he's projected all his survivor's guilt onto Loghain and sees him as the embodiment of evil without really ever mentioning it to anyone. It's understandable, yes, and might not be wrong but it isn't really spelled out until right before or even at the Landsmeet.

There is. Morrigan reveals it to you when you wake up, and it is not unreasonable to assume she and her mother told Alistair the same. She goes on to say, "Your friend, he is not taking it well." probably referring to the news of what happened at the Battle (IE Loghain's betrayal).

I respectfully disagree with you on the second bolded point: Alistair has perfectly rational reasons to dislike Loghain.

Modifié par eucatastrophe, 26 avril 2010 - 03:51 .

[Sarah1281]

I respectfully disagree with you on the second bolded point: Alistair has perfectly rational reasons to dislike Loghain.

Oh, I'm not saying he doesn't. I just think he was so quick to blame him completely for Ostagar when he has no idea what happened largely due to survivor's guilt. He blamed Loghain before he found out about Eamon, the GW bounty, Loghain making himself regent, ect.



And I thought it was clear enough that Alistair hated Loghain (though maybe not that it was a deal-breaker on my first playthrough) but since so many people are so flabbergasted by all of this and everyone's examples of Alistair saying something to indicate his hatred was more of an implied thing then outright stating it I feel less people would have missed it if he had outright declared his hatred/desire to kill Loghain.

[eucatastrophe]

Hey Sarah1281,

I just rewatched the Battle + aftermath: Flemeth has revealed everything to you both... Hence her line about the darkness in the hearts of men.

I do agree with you though that he suffers from a case of survivor's guilt. (Especially when it comes to Duncan, his father-figure).

[Aisynia]

What's funny is that Duncan would likely have spared Loghain out of sheer pragmatism as well had he survived the battle. If every other Grey Warden aside from Duncan died, I don't think Alistair's feelings regarding Loghain would be that different. Would have been a ruuuude awakening when and if Duncan pulled that on him.

Of course, maybe Alistair would actually LISTEN to Duncan...

Modifié par Aisynia, 26 avril 2010 - 04:22 .

[CalJones]

Yes I think Alistair telegraphs his hatred pretty well throughout the game. The problem is that, if you're a more merciful or pragmatic sort, there's no option to disagree with him or tell him that you would prefer to solve this without violence. Ultimately Alistair feels betrayed because he never got to know the real you, and that's his own fault. (Well, maybe not his fault...it's just the way he's written). Up until the rose dialogue he never even considers that the PC has his/her own issues - in fact he doesn't even tell the PC about the taint death sentence until several conversations in, like it's an afterthought (and then only if you have enough approval). It's all about him.

[Merilsell]

Two words: Game mechanics.



Hardly Alistair's fault that it isn't all about "MEEEE!!!" in the game. Certainly it would have been nice if you could have the option to talk more about 'me,me,ME' at times xD but somewhere the dialogue options has to have its limits.



That's what fanfiction are for imo.

[CalJones]

Merilsell - yes, that's why I say it's not his fault, just the way he's written.



Elps - yes, I pretty much agree with that analysis. Alistair is more in love with his idea of the Warden, than with the Warden herself. He assumes she sees everything the way he does, so it's a bit of a shock if the Warden turns out to have very different ideas. That, more than anything, puts me off him.

[Axekix]

Elps wrote...

At the Landsmeet, Alistair is not just prepared to dump his love, he is also prepared to break his oath to the Wardens (a vow he cannot break, and which he gave to Duncan as well as his fellow Wardens) while knowing that Wardens are the only ones who can defeat the archdemon. He steps away from that battle, even after Riordan explains that it is better to have more Wardens - ignoring the advice from the senior (his superior). So, in pursuing death for Loghain, he abandons his love, his oath and his country.

Well, tbh, I don't think he really is able to appreciate the gravity of his decision at the time.  I think the warden sparing Loghain completely blindsides him, and his reaction is a purely emotional one. 

It's hard to think rationally when you feel like you've just been betrayed by the one person you trusted (and/or loved) more than anyone else.  People say and do things they later regret all the time in the heat of the moment, and I certainly can't blame him for getting emotional there. 

I feel like people expect too much from him.

[Sarah1281]

I don't even really mind the hissy fit and quitting the Wardens to marry Anora or go off to a different country. What bothers me is that he did it in front of pretty much anyone who matters in Ferelden. That's really bad form and, if he's King, won't due much to make the nobles respect him in the future. Time and place, Alistair. Time and place.

[Aisynia]

Axekix wrote...

Elps wrote...

At the Landsmeet, Alistair is not just prepared to dump his love, he is also prepared to break his oath to the Wardens (a vow he cannot break, and which he gave to Duncan as well as his fellow Wardens) while knowing that Wardens are the only ones who can defeat the archdemon. He steps away from that battle, even after Riordan explains that it is better to have more Wardens - ignoring the advice from the senior (his superior). So, in pursuing death for Loghain, he abandons his love, his oath and his country.

Well, tbh, I don't think he really is able to appreciate the gravity of his decision at the time.  I think the warden sparing Loghain completely blindsides him, and his reaction is a purely emotional one. 

It's hard to think rationally when you feel like you've just been betrayed by the one person you trusted (and/or loved) more than anyone else.  People say and do things they later regret all the time in the heat of the moment, and I certainly can't blame him for getting emotional there. 

I feel like people expect too much from him.

Thing is, I could excuse a lot of it if he just came and talked later after cooling down.. but his decision, heat of the moment or not, is FINAL. And that's IT.

[nos_astra]

Aisynia wrote...
Thing is, I could excuse a lot of it if he just came and talked later after cooling down.. but his decision, heat of the moment or not, is FINAL. And that's IT.

Oh, there are even RP reasons why he could not show up later, if you wanted to go there. After he leaves he has no idea about what's happening. He can't know that the Orlesians won't be there in time and that the horde is on its way to Denerim.

But even without jumping through such RP hoops. When Alistair leaves he is DONE with the world, he is broken, there's nothing left for him, all ties cut, no friends, no familiy, no purpose. He will regret his decision and probably compensate this by drinking himself slowly to death out of guilt and self-hatred.

Is it so hard to understand that your PC just crossed a line and Alistair will not be able to even remotely forgive until it's far too late? Why do you demand the character to be a doormat, willingly bending to your wishes?

Modifié par klarabella, 26 avril 2010 - 11:20 .

[eucatastrophe]

About what klarabella said... isn't it interesting he is considered weak yet when he stands up for something he believes in, that is met with shock, incredulity, and disappointment?

[nos_astra]

Aisynia wrote...
What's funny is that Duncan would likely have spared Loghain out of sheer pragmatism as well had he survived the battle.

David Gaider said something very interesting about what Duncan would do: Duncan would probably let Ferelden fall to the Blight and head to Orlais for help, exactly what Riordan says after you free him from his prison.

Aren't we glad that Alistair is not Duncan? I am.

Modifié par klarabella, 26 avril 2010 - 11:37 .