190 réponses à ce sujet

[Aisynia]

I explained my views on Leli the other day, I can't remember where, but I really adore the character. I think even if you harden her, she has genuinely put much of what that life meant behind her. she wants life on the road with YOU, not life spent playing the game in Orlais with Marjolaine or some other patron. After all, she said that it destroyed her life. The dialogue there is a bit iffy, much like it is with Alistair's hardening. With him, "People are out for themselves" translates to "you need to look after yourself more". With her, I think "This is what you are" translates to "You love the adventure and excitement, don't give it up because of what Marjolaine did to you, and don't let that old life haunt you".



I think how Wynne describes her, "Sincere and guileless" is extremely accurate. Leliana is a very, VERY genuine person who trusts you completely, and wants to be accepted and loved by you.



I never thought the eyelashes conversationw as crazy.. she's a minstrel as well as a bard, she's a story teller, a poetess, a singer. She speaks and thinks in a more fantastical way. She was using metaphor, trying to be cute. It falls flat for some people, that's fine, but I don't think it's "lol she's insane!". Of course, if you say she's crazy now, she just laughs and jokes with you about how you knew she already was..



And let's be honest, who here HASN'T had this conversation with friends or loved ones in real life, where the conclusion is that "No one's normal, especially us" with a laugh and a smile?

[ejoslin]

The thing is, I can never trust Leliana fully, because she does say that what she did to seduce her marks was to become the woman they wanted her to be. I think Wynne was way off and very easily fooled by surface appearances.



Maybe she IS sincere and guileless, maybe she's that way because she perceives that's what the warden wants. I love that about the character, actually. I never could tell for certain.

[sylvanaerie]

ejoslin wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...
About the easily influenced yes, I get the feeling though that could be from her early conditioning from Marjolaine.  She discusses with Alistair the training she underwent as a bard was to learn to adapt and blend in so she was 'invisible'.  We don't know what else Marjolaine slipped in there along with that but I think she was actually brainwashed to some extent.  In this she is much in the same boat as Zevran (And don't jump on me I am not belittling what was done to Zevran.  I get that he was a slave and had no choice but if Marjolaine brainwashed Leliana she would be in similar straits.  My concept of Leliana is that she has been abused too in her own way.
Yes we don't SEE the scars but things she says when you romance her, things you see when you play with her lead me to believe she has been abused mentally.  I mean HONESTLY the eyelashes comment?  That's full of crazy...and completely IN character for her.  And she talks about how safe she feels with the Warden, how she falls asleep sometimes on watch but wakes up seeing the Warden there and knows nothing will harm them.
I think its a testiment to the writing team that they made these characters who are something more underneath than what their immediate facade would suggest.

*grin* I only jump on people who say that Leliana's upbringing was as bad as Zevran's (they're not even in the same category of bad -- there's a huge difference between being raised to entertain a noble woman and the horror that was Zevran's early life).  She did have choices, but I do agree that Marjolaine did a number on her head.

I agree that there is a lot more to Leliana.  I actually was responding to someone saying she had a moral crisis.  THAT wasn't what brought her to the Chantry.  Had Marjolaine not betrayed her, she would have happily continued being a bard.

Edit: And I am NOT saying that Leliana didn't have horrible things done to her.  She was most certainly treated horribly after her capture, and tortured and raped.  But that wasn't her reason for being a bard.  At all.  Unlike Zevran, who was raised a ****house boy where he learned at least massage techniques before the age of 7, was further trained to use sex to get close to his marks, and tortured hideously as a matter of course for his training.  

That doesn't make what happened to Leliana ok.  Quite the opposite.  But she was raised to entertain a noble woman, he was raised to be an assassin yet they both ended up with similar professions.

Oh gawd yes, Poor Zev definitely wins in the sh*tty childhood thing.  The stuff that he talks about (dark ouibliette always makes me shiver when he says it being I am very claustrophobic) and he actually TRIES to laugh it off like "oh that never happend to me" or "its not so bad".  Zev is one of those who gets sh*t and makes lemonade out of it.  Yea he's a killer and its something he takes pride in doing (That's how he was conditioned) but there is SO much more under that exterior.
I love Zev hes my bestest buddy in game but romance, umm no not my type.  But thats the beauty of the game that it has gems for everyone

[Aisynia]

ejoslin wrote...

The thing is, I can never trust Leliana fully, because she does say that what she did to seduce her marks was to become the woman they wanted her to be. I think Wynne was way off and very easily fooled by surface appearances.

Maybe she IS sincere and guileless, maybe she's that way because she perceives that's what the warden wants. I love that about the character, actually. I never could tell for certain.

I thouight about this long and hard before, and I have come to a singular conclusion.

My PC is in love with her, madly in love. When you love someone, you need to have faith in them, even if things don't always seem to add up, that's just how life is: things don't always make sense, true or untrue. I doubt Leli would tell you those things if she was actively deceiving you, but even then, one must have faith in her lover and trust her completely.

Forget about being a girlfriend, forget about "the relationship", what's important is that love, that romance. That romance cannot exist without that trust and faith. There is always risk when you love someone.

In the end, she is either sincere and loves you back, or she is decieving you. Being with someone and not fully trusting them wil sabotage whatever you are trying to build with them, it tears a lot of people apart. so in the end, both IRL and within a story such as this, I choose the route of showing faith in the other person, because nothing can be built or maintained otherwise.

EDIT: Then again I'm a hopeless romantic <3<3<3

Modifié par Aisynia, 27 avril 2010 - 03:02 .

[ejoslin]

Does it really have to be either/or? Why not that because Leliana loves the warden, she becomes the woman she thinks the warden wants? Obviously, she loves the warden if romanced -- if the warden does the US she's absolutely destroyed.

[Aisynia]

I suppose you have a point. In that case, I wouldn't say she's being deceptive. It may in fact be in earnest.

Sometimes, in life, people try to change the ones they love.. and sometimes, they will go out of their way to change themselves, to be who their lover wants.
'
Thing is, if they wanted you to begin with it's sort of a disaster if you change, but that's really aside from the point.

I suppose I could see that being possible, that Leliana might be doing her best to be the woman you want, just to please you.

I've done the same thing, I will admit.

Modifié par Aisynia, 27 avril 2010 - 03:28 .

[ejoslin]

The one thing you CAN be certain of of Leliana is that she is not guileless. Which is why Wynne is way off on her assessment.

[tmp7704]

ejoslin wrote...

The one thing you CAN be certain of of Leliana is that she is not guileless. Which is why Wynne is way off on her assessment.

Wynne's comment may be referring to Leliana as she is currently, not to her former self. We don't know whether Leliana left that part of her behind like the rest of her bard business so we can have doubts if she's honest with the player, but it's possible Wynne can actually tell that better, based either on experience or on the time the characters spend together, or both.

[Carmen_Willow]

My first romance choice was Alistair because I felt safe with him, knew he had my back and knew he'd always be there....or so I thought. He gives me up to try for royal progeny and I sacrifice myself in a fit of noble depression.



My happiest romance was as a HNF, who hardens Alistair, tells the Landsmeet that he's marrying her and has him sleep with the witch. They marry and have fun ruling the nation together.



Zev's sweet enough, but his casual approach to assasination is an issue for us that I'm not sure we ever get over (despite the fact that I can assasinate with the best of them). I usually choose him when I am a femal elf.



As a guy, I go with Leiliana. She's a bit crazy, and a little religious, but at least she can admit that she loves you and stays with you after the party is over.



Like a lot of the guys, I did the Morrigan romance for the achievement, but I didn't enjoy it.



So bottom line - Alistair - even though he needs to grow up.

[Aisynia]

tmp7704 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

The one thing you CAN be certain of of Leliana is that she is not guileless. Which is why Wynne is way off on her assessment.

Wynne's comment may be referring to Leliana as she is currently, not to her former self. We don't know whether Leliana left that part of her behind like the rest of her bard business so we can have doubts if she's honest with the player, but it's possible Wynne can actually tell that better, based either on experience or on the time the characters spend together, or both.

Really. Just because someone had a darker past doesn't mean they can't be honest now, especially about who they love.

I mean, with that logic, we should just say Zevran is lying and just waiting for the perfect opportunity to put a knife in your back. He could be playing the sick puppy with the horrid past full of sob stories just to garner sympathy.

[ejoslin]

Not being guileless is a good thing, and no matter what, Leliana cannot be categorized as guileless. The fact that she can appear so innocent probably helped her immensely as a bard, but she is not innocent. And that's fine. That doesn't make Wynne a better judge of character. Anyone who can think that a former bard IS guileless is looking at the surface only.

Edit: A far better choice of word to describe Leliana would be sweet.  

Modifié par ejoslin, 27 avril 2010 - 05:35 .

[Carmen_Willow]

tmp7704 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

The one thing you CAN be certain of of Leliana is that she is not guileless. Which is why Wynne is way off on her assessment.

Wynne's comment may be referring to Leliana as she is currently, not to her former self. We don't know whether Leliana left that part of her behind like the rest of her bard business so we can have doubts if she's honest with the player, but it's possible Wynne can actually tell that better, based either on experience or on the time the characters spend together, or both.

It is possible for someone through a supreme life crisis, a horribly tragic event, etc. to turn their life around.  I think Leliana is that person.  I think the things that happened to her in Orlais were so horrendus that she had a life changing experience.  Kind of like hitting bottom when you're an addict.  So I think she really did change.  And I think that she really wanted to find someone she could trust and believe in once more.

Is she always going to be completely honest with her life mate?  Probably not.  How many of us actually tell our significant other just how much we paid for that dress....but in things important, I think Leliana will be honest with hers.  I think she stepped back from the abyss and doesn't want to go there again....

[Sarah1281]

I think how Wynne describes her, "Sincere and guileless" is extremely accurate. Leliana is a very, VERY genuine person who trusts you completely, and wants to be accepted and loved by you.

"If you describe someone as guileless, you mean that they behave openly and truthfully and do not try to deceive people." Leliana lies about, that we know of, being a former bard AND her reasons for leaving Orlais. I'm not saying she was wrong to do so and she does come clean eventually but she was deceiving you from the moment she met you until the moment you confronted her about her unusual knowledge about bards. That's hardly guileless but you'd be hard-pressed to find many guileless people in the game (well, that have more than two seconds of screentime).

[sleepingbelow]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I think how Wynne describes her, "Sincere and guileless" is extremely accurate. Leliana is a very, VERY genuine person who trusts you completely, and wants to be accepted and loved by you.

"If you describe someone as guileless, you mean that they behave openly and truthfully and do not try to deceive people." Leliana lies about, that we know of, being a former bard AND her reasons for leaving Orlais. I'm not saying she was wrong to do so and she does come clean eventually but she was deceiving you from the moment she met you until the moment you confronted her about her unusual knowledge about bards. That's hardly guileless but you'd be hard-pressed to find many guileless people in the game (well, that have more than two seconds of screentime).

Enchantment?

[sylvanaerie]

sleepingbelow wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

I think how Wynne describes her, "Sincere and guileless" is extremely accurate. Leliana is a very, VERY genuine person who trusts you completely, and wants to be accepted and loved by you.

"If you describe someone as guileless, you mean that they behave openly and truthfully and do not try to deceive people." Leliana lies about, that we know of, being a former bard AND her reasons for leaving Orlais. I'm not saying she was wrong to do so and she does come clean eventually but she was deceiving you from the moment she met you until the moment you confronted her about her unusual knowledge about bards. That's hardly guileless but you'd be hard-pressed to find many guileless people in the game (well, that have more than two seconds of screentime).

Enchantment?

'
Even he has his own secrets...I wanna know WHAT happened to all those darkspawn in Fort Drakon...does Sandal have Duncan's beard in his enchantment folders somewhere?  Duncan's beard + Sandal's enchantment = kick ass time.