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[Sky Shadowing]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Sky Shadowing wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Sky Shadowing wrote...

Alistair from DAO begs to disagree with you. Morrigan to a slightly lesser extent.

Is that closer to "Crap, he's right" or "Is he really that stupid?"

I think we were rather confused on what sort of parallel you were trying to draw.  Alistar and Morrigan in DA:O in now way represent the same situation of ME2 characters appearing in ME3.

Sorry, I have a tendency to forget earleir things I've read and I was focusing completely on the "hard to have a squadmate play a major role" part. The situations are quite different, given that every squadmate could be dead.

I think a part of the reward Bioware's going to give us for keeping squadmates alive through ME2 is allowing us to help decide their story. See my earlier example of possibly making Tali an Admiral to suport you against the Reapers.

That said, back on topic, what JeanLuc said earlier is right. We can't be sure. We can debate, argue, whine, ****, moan, worship, etc. all we want. But nobody knows but Bioware.

Expanding on my point, though, and in MY opinion, Bioware wouldn't have written so many excuses for squad mates NOT to leave if they didn't intend to keep them around, assuming they survived the suicide mission.

[Nozybidaj]

Sky Shadowing wrote...
I think a part of the reward Bioware's going to give us for keeping squadmates alive through ME2 is allowing us to help decide their story. See my earlier example of possibly making Tali an Admiral to suport you against the Reapers.

It all comes down to perspective.  "Reward" is a very relative term.  For me having to deal with all these ME2 characters again would certainly not be seen as a "reward".  Having the ME1 LI's sidelined is not something I see as a "reward".  Having my Shep's story put on hold (or even lost for all time) at the end of ME1 is not something I see as a "reward".

Either getting the old crew back, or getting an all new crew would be a "reward" to me for enduring ME2.

[DigitalMaster37]

jlb524 wrote...

I'm arguing from the perspective of a person that has to sit down and code the game and design each level. Tali's potential death is easier to deal with if she is limited to one area of the game than if she could be everywhere at anytime (i.e., squad mate). By 'easier to deal with' I mean coding complexity. As the complexity of code goes up, time it takes to make it work right and test it goes up, cost goes up (unless BW is paying their developers a crap wage or they work for free).

They could do both (squad mate and role on flotilla), of course, but this would even be more complex.

I 150% agree with this. As a former game design student (and future student) I am gonna second all of those statements, which also causes me to adjust my former statements.

I think we may NOT see every LI become squadmate material. Some LIs if not most will be relegated to cameo appearances for ME3. Now this brings back up the question of who will be squadmate material... which makes me think we'll see new characters altogether with all former ones being cameo'd.

yet I think we'll see the ME1 squad return in part (Liara, Ash/Kaidan, possibly Garrus)
Liara is easily explained, Ash/Kaiden are also fairly easily explained. One cancels out the other. So if Ash survived, she makes a return, if Kaidan survives he makes a return. Garrus seems also easy to bring back into ME3.

Tali not so much based on her story line IMO. Unless they decide to pry her from her people, then she'll be cameo'd and similar to Wrex in that they lead their people to fight by our side.

The ME2 characters would be a mind boggling programming experience for any programmer, so I'm not sure what BioWare is gonna do here. But cameoland seems more feasible than anything else.

[Sky Shadowing]

jlb524 wrote...

I'm arguing from the perspective of a person that has to sit down and code the game and design each level. Tali's potential death is easier to deal with if she is limited to one area of the game than if she could be everywhere at anytime (i.e., squad mate). By 'easier to deal with' I mean coding complexity. As the complexity of code goes up, time it takes to make it work right and test it goes up, cost goes up (unless BW is paying their developers a crap wage or they work for free).

They could do both (squad mate and role on flotilla), of course, but this would even be more complex.

I have no idea how things are done in Mass Effect, but if the situation is like how I've seen previous games, it wouldn't be ridiculously complex. Really, squad mates are interchangable. You give them basic AI (which they could easily copy over from ME2, given that it's the same engine). And they have to have dialogue, which, as far as I can tell, is a simple check at that point through the dialogue engine "if Squadmate A = (squadmate) then Squadmate A says Dialogue Line A"

Even if they give an all new squad, they're going to have the same basic roles (engineer, soldier, biotic, and mixes). So they already have to balance the level to ensure it's completable (which, quite frankly, even differences in squadmates don't make too much difference).

I've modded games and I'm attending a major university for video game design. In reality, the greater workload would be on the dialouge and lip-synching artists, as most of the animation for the game is interchangeable between squadmates (which is why if you use a mod to make Shepard appear like Tali, all the animations still work and look good. It's the same thing for squadmates- they all play the same animations).

Writing Tali into the Migrant Fleet as a cameo only means you have to develop new squadmates to replace her, write stories for them, etc. etc. etc.

From a business perspective, too, allowing ME2 squadmates to return minimizes voice acting costs. These actors are already signed to contracts. If you bring them back as cameos and then bring in a whole new team, it possibly doubles the number of voice actors required, which increases costs.

And as I said, Bioware has known what was going to be possible all along. If certain squadmates weren't going to return, they would have slipped in tidbits to give them believable excuses. As it stands now, certain squadmates would need to pull excuses out of their asses to not return.

Tali not so much based on her story line IMO. Unless they decide
to pry her from her people, then she'll be cameo'd and similar to Wrex
in that they lead their people to fight by our side.

They already have (possibly). What if she's exiled? Where else does she have to GO? Quarians won't take her back.

Modifié par Sky Shadowing, 30 avril 2010 - 07:41 .

[Yeled]

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

I know the real reason, but i won't say it because it will cause a civil war, flaming and a headache, if you want to know, then just pm me >_<

Trust me, I know the real reason. 

I probably know too, but the fact that I just said "probably" scares me...  so please tell me why?

I'm in the same boat (and yes, I'm jumping in out of nowhere...been lurking).  I don't know what the real reason is, especially if its as controversial as Kraidy says it is.

[Nozybidaj]

Sky Shadowing wrote...
 If certain squadmates weren't going to return, they would have slipped in tidbits to give them believable excuses. As it stands now, certain squadmates would need to pull excuses out of their asses to not return.

Like making it possible for them to die?

[jlb524]

Nozy is right about perspective. While some ME players feel they deserve a huge reward for keeping ME2 people alive, others don't care. While some want the entire ME2 squad to come back, others only want the LIs to come back, others only want the ME1 squad to come back, others want all new squad mates, and others don't care either way. Your casual ME player that will never take part in the BW social forum probably falls into the last category.

[Nivenus]

jlb524 wrote...

Nozy is right about perspective. While some ME players feel they deserve a huge reward for keeping ME2 people alive, others don't care. While some want the entire ME2 squad to come back, others only want the LIs to come back, others only want the ME1 squad to come back, others want all new squad mates, and others don't care either way. Your casual ME player that will never take part in the BW social forum probably falls into the last category.

I know plenty of people who don't browse the forums, either because they're not into it enough or because they're put off by the attitudes here and I can safely say most of them want the ME2 characters to return. They also want the ME1 characters to return too, of course.

[Yeled]

Sky Shadowing wrote...

They already have (possibly). What if she's exiled? Where else does she have to GO? Quarians won't take her back.

All BW needs to do is contrive an explanation that allows Tali to come back, despite the earlier exiled status.  So, for example, between ME2 and ME3, or even during the beginning of ME3, a full out war begins between the Quarians and the Geth.  Tali does something essential for the Quarians no matter what her exile status, and they take her back and make her an admiral.

People forget that BioWare has a magic wand and can do whatever they want to the story.  See beginning of ME2 for example.

[Nivenus]

As for Tali, unlike Wrex, she doesn't want to build the future of her people - she doesn't want to carry on her father's legacy. She's also far too young for most of them to take her seriously as a leader, as the trial quite evidently shows. The reason they let her off if you give them the big paragon/renegade speech is because they realize she's really not part of their political games. Making her an admiral kind of goes against that.

[Yeled]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Sky Shadowing wrote...
 If certain squadmates weren't going to return, they would have slipped in tidbits to give them believable excuses. As it stands now, certain squadmates would need to pull excuses out of their asses to not return.

Like making it possible for them to die?

They don't even need that.  BioWare has proven they are willing to pull whatever excuses out of their asses they need to do what they want. Why anyone would think this isn't the case at this point, igoring all the evidence we have, is beyond me.

Modifié par Yeled, 30 avril 2010 - 07:48 .

[Collider]

Tali doesn't have any experience commanding ships, which is what an Admiral is supposed to have. She even says in ME1 that she does not want to be one, even though people have been suggesting since she's an important admiral's daughter. She is dedicated to her people, but not the government as we can see in her defiance towards the Admiralty Board.

[Nozybidaj]

Nivenus wrote...

As for Tali, unlike Wrex, she doesn't want to build the future of her people - she doesn't want to carry on her father's legacy. She's also far too young for most of them to take her seriously as a leader, as the trial quite evidently shows. The reason they let her off if you give them the big paragon/renegade speech is because they realize she's really not part of their political games. Making her an admiral kind of goes against that.

/shrug  Wrex never wanted to lead his people.  He makes his stance on the issue fairly clear in the first game.  Tali is supposed to be very dedicated to her own people, its been part of her character since ME1.  If they asked her to serve it would feel extremely contrived for her to say no. 

I don't agree with making her an Admiral, but a high ranking position for sure would fit her perfectly.

[Yeled]

Nivenus wrote...

As for Tali, unlike Wrex, she doesn't want to build the future of her people - she doesn't want to carry on her father's legacy. She's also far too young for most of them to take her seriously as a leader, as the trial quite evidently shows. The reason they let her off if you give them the big paragon/renegade speech is because they realize she's really not part of their political games. Making her an admiral kind of goes against that.

First...I disagree with the idea that Tali doesn't want to build the future of her people.  That seems essential to her character.  She seems quite passionate about the Quarian quest for their Homeworld.  That seemed a major crux of the loyalty mission, and really everything about her.  She even supported her father in this, though she didn't know the extent of what he was doing specifically.

Second...I'm not sure appealling to what makes logical sense for a character is a valid argument in BW's case.

[Yeled]

Collider wrote...

Tali doesn't have any experience commanding ships, which is what an Admiral is supposed to have. She even says in ME1 that she does not want to be one, even though people have been suggesting since she's an important admiral's daughter. She is dedicated to her people, but not the government as we can see in her defiance towards the Admiralty Board.

You're not seeing the forest for the trees, and are getting caught up in specifics when we're talking generalities.  She doesn't have to be an admiral.  That's just an example.  Give her any other role in the fleet.  It doesn't matter.

[Nozybidaj]

Yeled wrote...

First...I disagree with the idea that Tali doesn't want to build the future of her people.  That seems essential to her character.  She seems quite passionate about the Quarian quest for their Homeworld.  That seemed a major crux of the loyalty mission, and really everything about her.  She even supported her father in this, though she didn't know the extent of what he was doing specifically.

Second...I'm not sure appealling to what makes logical sense for a character is a valid argument in BW's case.

hehe, well said.

[DigitalMaster37]

Nivenus wrote...

As for Tali, unlike Wrex, she doesn't want to build the future of her people - she doesn't want to carry on her father's legacy. She's also far too young for most of them to take her seriously as a leader, as the trial quite evidently shows. The reason they let her off if you give them the big paragon/renegade speech is because they realize she's really not part of their political games. Making her an admiral kind of goes against that.

Although I don't fully remember her story that very well, I do believe she does have a desire to be with her people.
But this is an area I am not well versed on. Either way, I believe that 4 out of the 6 ME1 squadmates will return regardless as squadmates. ME2 characters is a mixed bag. I can see certain ones being shoehorned in and other cameo'd.

Personally I wish them all back, cause I enjoyed them all in some way or another sans Zaeed and Morinth.

Everyone else is cool in my book, so if they return, the more happy I am.

[Nivenus]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Nivenus wrote...

As for Tali, unlike Wrex, she doesn't want to build the future of her people - she doesn't want to carry on her father's legacy. She's also far too young for most of them to take her seriously as a leader, as the trial quite evidently shows. The reason they let her off if you give them the big paragon/renegade speech is because they realize she's really not part of their political games. Making her an admiral kind of goes against that.

/shrug  Wrex never wanted to lead his people.  He makes his stance on the issue fairly clear in the first game.

Yes, he did. He simply had given up hope that they could be led. But the conversations with him quite clearly indicate that, before his father's betrayal, he felt very strongly about leading the krogan to a brighter future. Eventually, he gave up because he felt that it was a lost cause. If he survives ME1, his tune changes, but his overall goals do not. It's not about choosing something he doesn't want to do at that point, it's about choosing something he's always wanted but felt he could never have.

[Yeled]

Nozybidaj wrote...

/shrug  Wrex never wanted to lead his people.  He makes his stance on the issue fairly clear in the first game. 

Right.  In fact, Wrex had all but abandoned his people until Vrmire.

[jlb524]

Sky Shadowing wrote...

I have no idea how things are done in Mass Effect, but if the situation is like how I've seen previous games, it wouldn't be ridiculously complex. Really, squad mates are interchangable. You give them basic AI (which they could easily copy over from ME2, given that it's the same engine). And they have to have dialogue, which, as far as I can tell, is a simple check at that point through the dialogue engine "if Squadmate A = (squadmate) then Squadmate A says Dialogue Line A"

It maybe a simple check, but it has to be done often and in many places.  Plus, they have to do this with 12 characters and various combinations of these twelve characters.  That's what makes it hard.  And then it all has to be tested to make sure it doesn't break b/c Tali is dead, or Mordin is dead, etc.  They would have to test this for every character and every possible combination of characters.

I've modded games and I'm attending a major university for video game design. In reality, the greater workload would be on the dialouge and lip-synching artists, as most of the animation for the game is interchangeable between squadmates (which is why if you use a mod to make Shepard appear like Tali, all the animations still work and look good. It's the same thing for squadmates- they all play the same animations).

Well, if the greater workload is on dialog and lip-synching of it, why waste a lot of time doing this for characters who may not be in everyone's game? 

Writing Tali into the Migrant Fleet as a cameo only means you have to develop new squadmates to replace her, write stories for them, etc. etc. etc.

Yes, of course.  I'm not suggesting they bring in 12 new squad mates to replace the 12 ME2 ones.  I'm hoping if they make a new squad, they make a smaller squad this time so they could do more with it.  Thus, not every cameoed ME2 squad mate would need time spent to replace them as they would only need about 4-6.

From a business perspective, too, allowing ME2 squadmates to return minimizes voice acting costs. These actors are already signed to contracts. If you bring them back as cameos and then bring in a whole new team, it possibly doubles the number of voice actors required, which increases costs.

But, if they have less lines in the cameo, that's less cost.   Plus, VA's don't work as much on the game as developers.  I know Yvonne Whatserface probably has a higher hourly wage than John Doe programmer, but John Doe programmer is putting a lot more hours into the game.

They already have (possibly). What if she's exiled? Where else does she have to GO? Quarians won't take her back.

Well, in that case, her cameo will be less and you'll run into her on a hub world like the Citadel or something.   Another quarian will take her place on the flotilla.  Or, they can retcon it and say the quarians took her back for some reason.

[Nozybidaj]

Yeled wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

/shrug  Wrex never wanted to lead his people.  He makes his stance on the issue fairly clear in the first game. 

Right.  In fact, Wrex had all but abandoned his people until Vrmire.

That said I still liked what they did with Wrex.  Tali could very easily assume a similar position and it would feel like a very natural progression for her character.

[Nivenus]

Yeled wrote...

Nivenus wrote...

As for Tali, unlike Wrex, she doesn't want to build the future of her people - she doesn't want to carry on her father's legacy. She's also far too young for most of them to take her seriously as a leader, as the trial quite evidently shows. The reason they let her off if you give them the big paragon/renegade speech is because they realize she's really not part of their political games. Making her an admiral kind of goes against that.

First...I disagree with the idea that Tali doesn't want to build the future of her people.  That seems essential to her character.  She seems quite passionate about the Quarian quest for their Homeworld.  That seemed a major crux of the loyalty mission, and really everything about her.  She even supported her father in this, though she didn't know the extent of what he was doing specifically.

She wants a better future for them, there's no question of that. But she doesn't want to be responsible for it. She hates being put in a position of authority and people looking up to her and asking her what to do. She makes that quite clear. She just wants to do what's best for her people, in her own small way, without having to manage the whole thing.

She also hates politics, which is really something someone who's an admiral really would have to deal with regularly.

Yeled wrote...

Second...I'm not sure appealling to what makes logical sense for a character is a valid argument in BW's case.

I think you have too little faith in BioWare, but that's just a matter of opinion.

[Nozybidaj]

Nivenus wrote...
I think you have too little faith in BioWare, but that's just a matter of opinion.

What reason would a Liara fan have to put faith in BW as far as creating logical progressions for characters?

[Yeled]

Nivenus wrote...

I think you have too little faith in BioWare, but that's just a matter of opinion.

Ah, see, but that's only because they killed my faith.  Before ME2 I thought they could walk on water, turn water into wine, feed the masses, heal the sick, and give the faithful the hope of overcoming sins and gaining salvation in heaven.

My eyes have been opened to the false messiah that they are.  And yet I still hope, at least a little, otherwise I wouldn't be here.

[jlb524]

Yes, this whole 'it would be illogical for BW to make character X to do Y in ME3' argument is bogus when you look at what they did with Liara in ME2. Pre-ME2, who would have saw that change in character coming?  They'll do what they want to make it fit with their current game MO.

Modifié par jlb524, 30 avril 2010 - 08:03 .