390 réponses à ce sujet

[Nivenus]

I've been through BioWare skepticism before. Very strong cases of, regarding Dragon Age and The Old Republic. It passed. It may not in your cases and you have good reasons to be upset. But personally, I think it's just one mistake out of several great successes.

[Nozybidaj]

jlb524 wrote...

Yes, this whole 'it would be illogical for BW to make character X to do Y in ME3' argument is bogus when you look at what they did with Liara in ME2. Pre-ME2, who would have saw that change in character coming?  They'll do what they want to make it fit with their current game MO.

And everyone knows it, and everyone sees it, hence the campaigning for it NOT to happen to them.

Modifié par Nozybidaj, 30 avril 2010 - 08:07 .

[Yeled]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Nivenus wrote...
I think you have too little faith in BioWare, but that's just a matter of opinion.

What reason would a Liara fan have to put faith in BW as far as creating logical progressions for characters?

Its not just Liara, though.  Liara is big, no doubt.  But I found the whole retcon that was ME2 to be dissapointing.  There were too many lazy decisions the development team made.  You had a subpar story that really didn't continue any of ME1 forward, and I felt disinterested most of the way through.  I kind of felt the whole thing was a gimmick.  Like they came up with this suicide mission idea and then contrived the entire game around the mechanic of gaining loyalty and keeping characters alive at the end.  But they didn't worry about whether it made sense or furthered their story or tied the main characters in well or took your decisions into account.  I also think they lost focus of what ME1 was really about:, and somehow forgot the wonderful characterization of the galaxy as depicted in the first game.

I agree they tidied up the gameplay, but I don't think that was worth the sacrifice of everything else.  Plus the gameplay still isn't all that terrific.  But that's not why I play these games so I can accept subpar game play if the story and characters are off the charts.

[Nozybidaj]

Yeled wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

Nivenus wrote...
I think you have too little faith in BioWare, but that's just a matter of opinion.

What reason would a Liara fan have to put faith in BW as far as creating logical progressions for characters?

Its not just Liara, though.  Liara is big, no doubt.  But I found the whole retcon that was ME2 to be dissapointing.  There were too many lazy decisions the development team made.  You had a subpar story that really didn't continue any of ME1 forward, and I felt disinterested most of the way through.  I kind of felt the whole thing was a gimmick.  Like they came up with this suicide mission idea and then contrived the entire game around the mechanic of gaining loyalty and keeping characters alive at the end.  But they didn't worry about whether it made sense or furthered their story or tied the main characters in well or took your decisions into account.  I also think they lost focus of what ME1 was really about:, and somehow forgot the wonderful characterization of the galaxy as depicted in the first game.

I agree they tidied up the gameplay, but I don't think that was worth the sacrifice of everything else.  Plus the gameplay still isn't all that terrific.  But that's not why I play these games so I can accept subpar game play if the story and characters are off the charts.

We are very much of the same mind, agree with everything you've said, and have said the same in the past. 

Liara is just the easiest example to pull out.

[Nivenus]

I thought the story of ME2 was great. In some parts it was weaker than ME1, in some parts it was better (I thought the endgame was much better). I also thought the characters were better. It's a matter of opinion, not fact.

[Sky Shadowing]

jlb524 wrote...


It maybe a simple check, but it has to be done often and in many places.  Plus, they have to do this with 12 characters and various combinations of these twelve characters.  That's what makes it hard.  And then it all has to be tested to make sure it doesn't break b/c Tali is dead, or Mordin is dead, etc.  They would have to test this for every character and every possible combination of characters.

It does have to be done often, but Bioware doesn't seem to care so much about how "hard" something is.They had 12 squadmates for ME2. The average player only plays the game once. So they record 12 lines of dialouge, 11 of which a player will never see.

But, if they have less lines in the cameo, that's less cost.   Plus, VA's don't work as much on the game as developers.  I know Yvonne Whatserface probably has a higher hourly wage than John Doe programmer, but John Doe programmer is putting a lot more hours into the game.

What about travel costs for VAs? Availablility, quality, etc. Assuming Bioware has to arrange for travel costs, hotel lodging, etc., those costs have to add up. But then again, Bioware's shelling out money for Martin Sheen. I doubt cost is an issue.

Well, in that case, her cameo will be less and you'll run into her on a hub world like the Citadel or something.   Another quarian will take her place on the flotilla.  Or, they can retcon it and say the quarians took her back for some reason.

If they retcon it, what was the point of allowing it in the first place? And if she's on the Citadel or something, what reason would she have for not coming with Shepard again? What important work could she, an exiled member of a hated race where EVERYBODY seems to want to see her in jail, possibly do that is more important than stopping the Reapers? When her former commander, her only friend, and possible lover, shows back up?

I understand, you're a Liara fan, so naturally you're a little more hesitant than others. But I've sat there, bored as hell in Poly Sci classes with nothing better to think of, and I've reached my conclusion. Naturally, you've had yours, and neither of us are changing the others mind. So let's just wait and see.

[Nozybidaj]

Sky Shadowing wrote...
 What important work could she, an exiled member of a hated race where EVERYBODY seems to want to see her in jail, possibly do that is more important than stopping the Reapers? When her former commander, her only friend, and possible lover, shows back up?

I dunno, ask Liara's writer in ME2.

[jlb524]

I think I'd still be critical of ME2's main story and structure even if Liara had a decent role in it, but I wouldn't be as harsh. My glasses would be a bit rose-tinted, but I would still see the issues there.

[Nozybidaj]

jlb524 wrote...

I think I'd still be critical of ME2's main story and structure even if Liara had a decent role in it, but I wouldn't be as harsh. My glasses would be a bit rose-tinted, but I would still see the issues there.

Hehe, yeah.  If Liara had been a substantial part of the game, I'd certainly be much more willing to overlook certain things.

[Nivenus]

I'm not sure that the Liara disappointment isn't a major factor. The Ashley and Kaidan threads seem nowhere near as negative and the ME2 character threads are outright positive about the future.

[jlb524]

@Sky Shadowing

Yes, BW made a whole bunch of new squad mates in ME2. The key word is new....I'm arguing that new people are easier to implement in the game than bringing back old ones, as there are less variables attached and, hence, more story-telling freedom and less coding complexity.

They chose to bring two people back but those two couldn't die in ME1 and they also ignored any variables that had to do with that character. Did you give Tali the geth data? Doesn't matter. Did you turn Garrus Paragon? Doesn't matter. Did you even recruit Garrus? Doesn't matter as Shep acts the same regardless. It seems like they took the easy route with squad mate carryover into ME2 and not the hard one.

Modifié par jlb524, 30 avril 2010 - 08:19 .

[Nozybidaj]

Nivenus wrote...

I'm not sure that the Liara disappointment isn't a major factor. The Ashley and Kaidan threads seem nowhere near as negative and the ME2 character threads are outright positive about the future.

Well the ME2 characters just had a whole chapter of the trilogy devoted to them and the Ash/Kaidan fans didn't have to witness the character assassination the Liara fans have had to go through.

[jlb524]

Nivenus wrote...

I'm not sure that the Liara disappointment isn't a major factor. The Ashley and Kaidan threads seem nowhere near as negative and the ME2 character threads are outright positive about the future.

I know Ashley and Kaidan fans that are disappointed with ME2 overall.  They hang out in groups though, so you don't hear much from them.

[Nivenus]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Nivenus wrote...

I'm not sure that the Liara disappointment isn't a major factor. The Ashley and Kaidan threads seem nowhere near as negative and the ME2 character threads are outright positive about the future.

Well the ME2 characters just had a whole chapter of the trilogy devoted to them and the Ash/Kaidan fans didn't have to witness the character assassination the Liara fans have had to go through.

My point exactly.

[DigitalMaster37]

Nozybidaj wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

I think I'd still be critical of ME2's main story and structure even if Liara had a decent role in it, but I wouldn't be as harsh. My glasses would be a bit rose-tinted, but I would still see the issues there.

Hehe, yeah.  If Liara had been a substantial part of the game, I'd certainly be much more willing to overlook certain things.

Seconded. The whole Liara situation made me skeptical on a whole new level. Without sounding bitter and anti ME2 squad, I somehow think this is the same thing that will happen to them unless the noise everyone is making about it gets heeded.

[Nivenus]

jlb524 wrote...

Did you give Tali the geth data?

Actually, that does matter.

[jlb524]

Nozybidaj wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

I think I'd still be critical of ME2's main story and structure even if Liara had a decent role in it, but I wouldn't be as harsh. My glasses would be a bit rose-tinted, but I would still see the issues there.

Hehe, yeah.  If Liara had been a substantial part of the game, I'd certainly be much more willing to overlook certain things.

Exactly...the problems are still there, but we would just be in a better mood when looking at them.  'Tis why most fans of the ME2 crew, especially Tali and Garrus fans who feel 'special' b/c BW listened to their cries for romance, aren't as critical of ME2's 'story'.  It's like, they're not critical out of a sense of gratitude.

[jlb524]

Nivenus wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Did you give Tali the geth data?

Actually, that does matter.

One line Shepard says...big deal.

[DigitalMaster37]

Nivenus wrote...

I'm not sure that the Liara disappointment isn't a major factor. The Ashley and Kaidan threads seem nowhere near as negative and the ME2 character threads are outright positive about the future.

Oh yeah they are angry but for different reasons. In a nutshell Liara's character was butchered. Ash/Kaidan were turned into grouches and ripped Shep a new one. So now we are not sure why, when we were supposedly dead and now alive, our LIs could only think about how we are now "allied" with Cerberus, and not willing to listen to us explain otherwise.

Modifié par Deltaboy37-1, 30 avril 2010 - 08:25 .

[Sky Shadowing]

jlb524 wrote...

@Sky Shadowing

Yes, BW made a whole bunch of new squad mates in ME2. The key word is new....I'm arguing that new people are easier to implement in the game than bringing back old ones, as there are less variables attached and, hence, more story-telling freedom and less coding complexity.

They chose to bring two people back but those two couldn't die in ME1 and they also ignored any variables that had to do with that character. Did you give Tali the geth data? Doesn't matter. Did you turn Garrus Paragon? Doesn't matter. Did you even recruit Garrus? Doesn't matter as Shep acts the same regardless. It seems like they took the easy route with squad mate carryover into ME2 and not the hard one.

I'm of the opinion that ME3 will be a bit more connected to ME2 than ME2 to ME1.

They've already said they kept A/K and Liara alive because they had a major role to play in ME3. They've also said that ME3 is about polishing up loose ends. While that includes the conflict against the Reapers, I also assume it includes things like squadmate storylines, etc.

Personally, if I were a Liara fan, I'd be optimistic. Not only do you have a DLC coming up that's completely devoted to Liara and likely will include more than 2 missions (which is more than any ME2 squadmate had), you also had a comic book and the possibility of Liara coming back in ME3, where her storyline will be fixed and you can possibly help her go back to her old personality.

[Nozybidaj]

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

Nivenus wrote...

I'm not sure that the Liara disappointment isn't a major factor. The Ashley and Kaidan threads seem nowhere near as negative and the ME2 character threads are outright positive about the future.

Oh yeah they are angry but for different reasons. In a nutshell Liara's character was butchered. Ash/Kaidan were turned into grouches and ripped Shep a new one, and so now we are not sure why, when we were supposedly dead and now alive, our LIs could only think about how we are now "allied" with Cerberus and not willing to listen.

But in the end Ash/Kaidan are still the same character.  I'd be much happier (still upset but less so) if Liara had just been another optional swap in on Horizion instead of dragging her character through this whole SB/Feron train wreck.

[Nivenus]

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

Nivenus wrote...

I'm not sure that the Liara disappointment isn't a major factor. The Ashley and Kaidan threads seem nowhere near as negative and the ME2 character threads are outright positive about the future.

Oh yeah they are angry but for different reasons. In a nutshell Liara's character was butchered. Ash/Kaidan were turned into grouches and ripped Shep a new one. So now we are not sure why, when we were supposedly dead and now alive, our LIs could only think about how we are now "allied" with Cerberus, and not willing to listen to us explain otherwise.

Ashley and Kaidan's responses made perfect sense. The only character that seemed off was Liara. And most fans I've run into of the characters (and I count myself as an Ashley fan) feel that way.

[DigitalMaster37]

Sky Shadowing wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

@Sky Shadowing

Yes, BW made a whole bunch of new squad mates in ME2. The key word is new....I'm arguing that new people are easier to implement in the game than bringing back old ones, as there are less variables attached and, hence, more story-telling freedom and less coding complexity.

They chose to bring two people back but those two couldn't die in ME1 and they also ignored any variables that had to do with that character. Did you give Tali the geth data? Doesn't matter. Did you turn Garrus Paragon? Doesn't matter. Did you even recruit Garrus? Doesn't matter as Shep acts the same regardless. It seems like they took the easy route with squad mate carryover into ME2 and not the hard one.

I'm of the opinion that ME3 will be a bit more connected to ME2 than ME2 to ME1.

They've already said they kept A/K and Liara alive because they had a major role to play in ME3. They've also said that ME3 is about polishing up loose ends. While that includes the conflict against the Reapers, I also assume it includes things like squadmate storylines, etc.

Personally, if I were a Liara fan, I'd be optimistic. Not only do you have a DLC coming up that's completely devoted to Liara and likely will include more than 2 missions (which is more than any ME2 squadmate had), you also had a comic book and the possibility of Liara coming back in ME3, where her storyline will be fixed and you can possibly help her go back to her old personality.

It's not that we're not optimistic, but I also like other characters and would hate to see them go through the same thing. In my case that would be Ash/Kaidan and Miranda. Yes I said Miranda, she is my favorite ME2 squaddie.

But even with the fact that we (Liara fans) are supposed to get all of this attention, it doesn't guarantee that this "attention" will be quality attention, afterall they also said Liara was in ME2, and look at how that turned out--She prefers to put people in cups rather than resume our relationship?!?! Jeez Thanks BioWare!

[DigitalMaster37]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

Nivenus wrote...

I'm not sure that the Liara disappointment isn't a major factor. The Ashley and Kaidan threads seem nowhere near as negative and the ME2 character threads are outright positive about the future.

Oh yeah they are angry but for different reasons. In a nutshell Liara's character was butchered. Ash/Kaidan were turned into grouches and ripped Shep a new one, and so now we are not sure why, when we were supposedly dead and now alive, our LIs could only think about how we are now "allied" with Cerberus and not willing to listen.

But in the end Ash/Kaidan are still the same character.  I'd be much happier (still upset but less so) if Liara had just been another optional swap in on Horizion instead of dragging her character through this whole SB/Feron train wreck.

Honestly I couldn't agree more. Aside from the fact that I like her status upgrade, the whol SB/Feron situation was a total butcher fest IMO (no offense to Walters or whoever wrote it) but all the same I'd be satisfied if we just got an email or some acknowledgement of the relationship.

[Nozybidaj]

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...
But even with the fact that we (Liara fans) are supposed to get all of this attention, it doesn't guarantee that this "attention" will be quality attention,

Or that we are even getting it.  Mentioning the comic was a really low blow too, btw.