390 réponses à ce sujet

[OneDrunkMonk]

Might be interesting if you team up with some characters at one point in the game and others later. So you perhaps have a choice of six at one point in the game then another six at another point. Right now there are a helluva lot of characters/potential team members. Perhaps some should be stationed at different areas of the galaxy as the Reapers try to enter from multiple access points from Dark Space.

[Nozybidaj]

RobertM5252 wrote...

BUT let's not forget how Liara, Ashley, Kaidan, and Wrex were all sidelined for ME2. Four of the six ME1 characters! If ME2 wasn't out, we could be having this discussion right now about how we would never believe that Bioware would invalidate all our romance options (something said in this thread!), about how our saves are even being imported, and about how ME1 was sufficiently popular that they'd have a budget plenty large enough to support bringing all those characters back, especially the three who definitely lived. And yet...

So given past experience, I don't think I'm off base in saying that there is a good chance (no, not a guarantee) that few or none of the ME2 characters will be promenent in ME3. I'm not saying I like that or that I think it's a good decision, only that it seems all too likely given how ME2 went and given that all the characters now are in the same position that Kaidan, Ashley, and Wrex were in from ME1 to ME2.

Well said....

[Peppard]

OneDrunkMonk wrote...

Might be interesting if you team up with some characters at one point in the game and others later. So you perhaps have a choice of six at one point in the game then another six at another point. Right now there are a helluva lot of characters/potential team members. Perhaps some should be stationed at different areas of the galaxy as the Reapers try to enter from multiple access points from Dark Space.

That's an interesting idea, sort of along the "temporary/optional" squad mate option.

 They may have to resort to cameo/emails to handle "continuity/choice impact" for a variety of reasons but I found that technique to be one of the more disatisfying elements of ME2.  I hope "the majority" of fans think that way too, so that BW is motivated to try something else in the last act of the story. 

[Master Smurf]

You are guaranteed Liara, some form of Legion and Shep which is the biggest fail because if Canon Shepard is going to continue why allow your Shep to be able to die.



They should have saved the Lazarus move for ME3 since you couldnt die at the end of ME1.



I think though you will get Legion, Liara, Ash/Kaiden and Garrus - possibly Jacob and Miranda as well. Tali and Wrex in cameo roles along with Rachnii Queen

[Kleli]

If BioWare doesn't add Tali as a member of Shepard's team in ME3 they're going to have a lot of very angry fans. Also where else would Tali go? The flotilla is no longer her home and she is a part of Shepard's crew.

[II Goonah II]

Peppard wrote...

II Goonah II wrote...

You people seem to forget that ALOT of the characters in ME2 always seem to make a point of the fact that they're 'only with you until the suicide mission is complete', and they even tell you their future plans if they do survive. I think BioWare has done this so they can have a easy excuse to make some of the characters 'disapear', but i'm pretty sure Garrus, Tali, Miranda, Jacob, Legion are the only ones who seem like they're going to stay by your side after the suicide mission, and I think Grunt and Mordin could also be a posibility. All the others seem to have other plans.

I don't think people forget, so much as people only remember characters the way they are after Shepard interacts with them, and in some cases, that seems to cause a change to the character's original  plans and perspective.  
If you have only played through 1 time, or not done a lot of the dialog trees and sub-plots, then you might not realize how much the characters can change in reaction to your Shepard's choices.

I do agree though, that the writers have the flexibility  to give any character a believable reason to leave, but also to stay.   

Oh yes I do know how all the characters develop (it's one of my favourite things to do in the game) and I agree they seem to get alot more attached to Shepard, but i'm still not sure...

[Zulu_DFA]

Kleli wrote...

If BioWare doesn't add Tali as a member of Shepard's team in ME3 they're going to have a lot of very angry fans. Also where else would Tali go? The flotilla is no longer her home and she is a part of Shepard's crew.

Tali may be dead.

Or she may be alive, but hate Shepard's guts.

[Clive Howlitzer]

I believe they stated that they were more or less using the same engine without any real improvements. This means that they can focus mostly on creating all the multiple storylines that might be required. They also know ME3 is the last game so they don't need to worry about carryover.

I think in a series they've prided themselves in carryover consequences its going to get serious and they'll have anyone who lived come back.

I am sure some will have larger parts than others. Isn't that why they made Liara unrecruitable? She plays a much larger role in ME3?

[Peppard]

Clive Howlitzer wrote...

I believe they stated that they were more or less using the same engine without any real improvements. ...
I am sure some will have larger parts than others. Isn't that why they made Liara unrecruitable? She plays a much larger role in ME3?

The engine thing is what gives me the most hope, because they did change that, plus a lot of the combat mechanic between 2 and 3.  Hopefully this time around, they aren't trying to reinvent as much, so that they  can concentrate on story, graphics and combat.

As to your second point, I think that's likely.  Especially if they don't do a Shadow broker DLC, and that becomes a large part of the next game.

[Alamar2078]

There's no reason not to bring everyone back. It was so stupidly easy to save everyone [the game basically begged you too] that it wouldn't surprise me if BW's default playthrough was save everyone.



Also let's face it ... for folks that played the game and would care at all they almost certainly want to import saves with everyone alive and maybe saves with some folks dead .... there isn't anything to win by not having everyone recruitable & playable.

[Eradyn]

RobertM5252 wrote...

No offense, but this is hardly an exhaustive survey of the entire gaming industry. Don't get me wrong, I don't doubt that a large amount of video game players do not finish the games they buy/rent. But what you've sourced is not sufficient proof that 70% of all gamers do not finish any game. Call me skeptical, but of players who buy (not rent) games, I would imagine more than 30% finish them. Maybe I'm wrong, though.

Even if I am, the fact remains that of players who finish a game, not all of them will see all the content the game offers. It simply isn't logical to say that, since a large amount of gamers don't finish games they buy, all content is equally worth developing. Main storyline quests are worth devoting more resources to that side quests. Dialog that the player will definitely hear is worth devoting more resources to that dialog players might not (or probably won't) hear. Art resources to design and animate parts of the game that the play will see... You get my point.

Bioware doesn't have an unlimited amount of time (and money) with which to develop any game, including ME3. While I'm sure they'd love to be able to have every level as expansive as, say, Omega and for every NPC in the game to have something interesting to say, it's just not feasable. In an interview, I believe it was Jennifer Hale (FemShep) who mentioned that ME2 had a massive amount of lines of dialog. And the more permutations of the same scenario one adds, the more dialog there must be, nevermind the other developing resources that must be used for character interaction (e.g., "directing," lip-sync, etc.).

So... of players who will finish ME3, how many of them will have ME2 characters that died? Of ME3 players, how many of them will not even import ME2 games?

I maintain that there is a reason side-quests are simpler than the main quests. And there's a reason why Kaidan, Ashley, and Wrex in particular were reduced to cameo roles that had replacement characters for them should any of them be dead. Every single ME2 character is now in this situation because they can all be dead now, too. And given how hard it is to meet deadlines for developers, I just don't believe that Bioware will completely ignore that fact this time when they didn't last time.

No offense, but I did note that it was not a definitive study.  Also, the point is being missed.  The point is not that a majority of gamers do not complete games, but to present an equally ridiculous notion that were this the case, then created end-game content is a "waste of resources too."  The actual point I was making is that the excuse that "not everyone will experience all the content," and therefore creating anything beyond whatever arbitrary "required" amount of content is a waste of resources, is ridiculous.  As ridiculous as not creating end game content/endings because some players, whatever percentage they make up, choose not to complete games. 

There is no logical basis for this.  One shouldn't argue for content being cut or not developed on the basis that not everyone will experience it because that is fallacious and ultimately moot.  People can experience as much or as little content as they want to, because that's the nature of a video game.  No one is barred from experiencing it, no one is forced to experience it.

Just because a character CAN die, doesn't mean their participation, presence, etc., in the next game should be sidelined, cameo'd, etc.  In reality, it doesn't have to be.  Using the excuse that just because they can die, and some players won't bother trying to have a save file with so-and-so saved, should not preclude BW from developing said characters and giving them that presence/participation/what-have-you.  Because the truth is a player can, if they choose, experience that content and make those decisions leading to such-and-such character living.

If BW couldn't handle the scale of a game they created, they shouldn't have started the project...certainly shouldn't market it the way they have been and do, and DEFINITELY shouldn't have shoe-horned characters for an even LARGER team with even MORE variables.  I'd like to think that BW is competent, however.  Certain perceived misjudgements aside, I'd like to think they can lie in the bed they made and finish what they started.  Let's just not use the excuse that "not everyone will experience content, blah blah blah" as though it is a valid argument, because it isn't.  And that, ultimately, was my point.

Modifié par Eradyn, 27 avril 2010 - 12:02 .

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Master Smurf wrote...

You are guaranteed Liara, some form of Legion and Shep which is the biggest fail because if Canon Shepard is going to continue why allow your Shep to be able to die.

They should have saved the Lazarus move for ME3 since you couldnt die at the end of ME1.

I think though you will get Legion, Liara, Ash/Kaiden and Garrus - possibly Jacob and Miranda as well. Tali and Wrex in cameo roles along with Rachnii Queen

Lazarus project is fine where it is, they better not go against their word all a sudden and basically allow any save (even pre-suicide mission) to be imported over. They can leave that kind of crap in DAO, where the final quest was made even more of a joke than it was regarding importing to Awakenings.

Considering the fact that you have to make real dumb choices to have a chance of Shep dying, you shouldn't be rewarded for dumb choices.

I also don't understand people going on about Legion returning no matter what happened. Even though it is just a 'unit' and the geth have a 'hive' mind. Legion was the name given to that particular 'unit'. Doesn't make sense to allow people to speak to/recruit 'Legion' again if it got killed in the suicide mission. "Dead is dead" as a certain producer stated pre-ME2 release.

One thing I do hope for in ME3 is that virtually all the squadmates are optional or at least can be told to get lost (as long as Shep keeps a minimum of two). I doubt it will happen but I can dream

[Peppard]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

Master Smurf wrote...
some form of Legion

I also don't understand people going on about Legion returning no matter what happened. Even though it is just a 'unit' and the geth have a 'hive' mind. Legion was the name given to that particular 'unit'. Doesn't make sense to allow people to speak to/recruit 'Legion' again if it got killed in the suicide mission. "Dead is dead" as a certain producer stated pre-ME2 release.

some form =/ that same unit .

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Peppard wrote...

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

Master Smurf wrote...
some form of Legion

I also don't understand people going on about Legion returning no matter what happened. Even though it is just a 'unit' and the geth have a 'hive' mind. Legion was the name given to that particular 'unit'. Doesn't make sense to allow people to speak to/recruit 'Legion' again if it got killed in the suicide mission. "Dead is dead" as a certain producer stated pre-ME2 release.

some form =/ that same unit .

I wasn't intentionally just aiming that comment at Master Smurf, just
that with him tying it with 'some form of shep' due to stating how shep dying should still come back in ME3. Not to mention others in the past where I've seen them go on about how even if you send
Legion to Cerberus or it dies you'll still see it in ME3. That would
just be silly imho.

Legion = that unit, a name given to him by
EDI

So to see Legion again in ME3 would mean that unit, not 'some form' as there is only one form.

If it got sent to Cerberus we should be getting some weapon
tech in ME3.
If it died on the suicide mission or wasn't activated,
it shouldn't return either because dead is dead.

[JnEricsonx]

OneDrunkMonk wrote...

Might be interesting if you team up with some characters at one point in the game and others later. So you perhaps have a choice of six at one point in the game then another six at another point. Right now there are a helluva lot of characters/potential team members. Perhaps some should be stationed at different areas of the galaxy as the Reapers try to enter from multiple access points from Dark Space.

Thats pretty much my idea.  First batch of the game, you pick which crew members are going off to do their thing, and then you meet up with them to help at their spots.  Sorta like a cross between a loyalty mission and the opposite of, in terms of for a while you don't have access to that character to help out.  Again, this game made a crapload of money, its the final battle, I'd like to think Bioware is gonna go beyond quads to full on QUINTS.

[mopotter]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

No one knows but Bioware OP. It's all speculation.

Agree.

[mopotter]

Privateerkev wrote...

RobertM5252 wrote...

Privateerkev wrote...

perfectly? Do you have any idea how easy it is to save everyone? I would be shocked if anyone who has spent even a minute on the wiki site even has trouble with it anymore. The way it is these days, people only die in your suicide mission if you want them to...

Exactly how much of the ME2 playerbase do you think is actually checking the wiki? (Or posting on these forums, for that matter. ) Hell, I use the wiki but my first time through I got Jacob and Mordin killed because I was avoiding spoilers like crazy.

I'm sure plenty are. I found it easy enough. My earlier point still stands. It is very very easy to make a save file where everyone lives. So, pretty much everyone who wants to import a save, where everyone lives, into ME3 can do so. Which means I do not agree with the logic of some on this forum who think that all because a person is killable, it means there is zero chance of them showing up in the next game.

Just a hunch but I think it's fans of ME1 characters hoping their characters don't get sidelined again. (And to be clear, I didn't like that the ME1 people were sidelined.) Ideally, I'd like to see all the ME1 and ME2 characters get their due and have big parts in the next game. But thats me.

BioWare said the ME1 LI were not involved in ME2 becuase they wanted them to survive for ME3.  I take them at their word. 

I have a couple of ME2 games where everyone survived.  I play a lot of games and I don't save everyone in all of the games, 

As for the characters from ME2 carrying over to ME3, I would imagine that if they survived they will show up.  Whether or not they will be part of the team I'll just wait and see.  I don't think they would have given us choices if in ME 3 everyone is alive a well no matter what you choose to do in ME2.   It would be extra work but they could fix it so that if someone died a different character takes their place and if they lived they join.  

I don't understand programing that much, but they might even be able to just have a missing space in your team lineup if one of them died in ME2 and have them available if they survived. This would be nice,  

All speculation and wishing hopes

[RobertM5252]

Eradyn wrote...
No offense, but I did note that it was not a definitive study.  Also, the point is being missed.  The point is not that a majority of gamers do not complete games, but to present an equally ridiculous notion that were this the case, then created end-game content is a "waste of resources too."  The actual point I was making is that the excuse that "not everyone will experience all the content," and therefore creating anything beyond whatever arbitrary "required" amount of content is a waste of resources, is ridiculous.  As ridiculous as not creating end game content/endings because some players, whatever percentage they make up, choose not to complete games. 

There is no logical basis for this.  One shouldn't argue for content being cut or not developed on the basis that not everyone will experience it because that is fallacious and ultimately moot.  People can experience as much or as little content as they want to, because that's the nature of a video game.  No one is barred from experiencing it, no one is forced to experience it.

I'm not in favor of a game creation model that focuses exclusively on the bottom line. One where the question always at the forefront of the developers' minds is, "If we spend X number of hours/dollars making this, how much more money will this bring in? Is it worth it in the final cost/benefit analysis?" But it is a concern. If nothing else, developers have to ask themselves if spending more time/money on something is worth how much harder it will make it to meet their deadlines, given that they don't have an unlimited amount of resources.

Eradyn wrote...
Just because a character CAN die, doesn't mean their participation, presence, etc., in the next game should be sidelined, cameo'd, etc.  In reality, it doesn't have to be.  Using the excuse that just because they can die, and some players won't bother trying to have a save file with so-and-so saved, should not preclude BW from developing said characters and giving them that presence/participation/what-have-you.  Because the truth is a player can, if they choose, experience that content and make those decisions leading to such-and-such character living.

Again, I'd love it if Bioware created ME3 with detailed content that makes extensive use of every possible combination of characters the player could have in it. Where a conversation appears between Shep and Garrus + Tali that is fundamentally different than if you encounter the same situation with Grunt + Miranda. But this just isn't likely. There are just too many variables at this point.

Also, I wouldn't even be making this argument if not for how Ashley, Kaidan, and Wrex were treated in ME2.

Eradyn wrote...
If BW couldn't handle the scale of a game they created, they shouldn't have started the project...certainly shouldn't market it the way they have been and do, and DEFINITELY shouldn't have shoe-horned characters for an even LARGER team with even MORE variables.  I'd like to think that BW is competent, however.  Certain perceived misjudgements aside, I'd like to think they can lie in the bed they made and finish what they started.  Let's just not use the excuse that "not everyone will experience content, blah blah blah" as though it is a valid argument, because it isn't.  And that, ultimately, was my point.

Well, they shouldn't have created a plot where tons of human colonies were disappearing for some mysterious reason and then have the reason/payoff for the build up be incredibly lame, but they did it anyway. :happy: They shouldn't have had Liara's character make such a strange change in personality then act like it made total sense, but they did it anyway. They shouldn't have created the Kasumi DLC and priced it at ~1/7 of the cost of ME2 (for PC) while only giving us 1/30 or less of the content, but they did. And finally and most relevantly, they shouldn't have given the player the opportunity to kill of Kaidan or Ashley or Wrex and then sideline them in ME2 as a result, but they did it anyway. They're great developers, don't get me wrong, but they're hardly perfect.

Furthermore, if you disagree with me then, by all means disagree with me and provide your reasons (this is a discussion board, after all), but acting as if my argument has "no validity" is rather insulting. And, honestly, rather naïve given Bioware's history.

[Peppard]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote.. 
I wasn't intentionally just aiming that comment at Master Smurf, just
that with him tying it with 'some form of shep' due to stating how shep dying should still come back in ME3. Not to mention others in the past where I've seen them go on about how even if you send
Legion to Cerberus or it dies you'll still see it in ME3. That would
just be silly imho.

Legion = that unit, a name given to him by
EDI

So to see Legion again in ME3 would mean that unit, not 'some form' as there is only one form.

If it got sent to Cerberus we should be getting some weapon
tech in ME3.
If it died on the suicide mission or wasn't activated,
it shouldn't return either because dead is dead.

Dead is Dead is kind of  a silly thing to chant as a rationale in  a Sci Fi series where the main character was brought back to life.

In any case, it is misleading talking about a synthetic creature with a hive mind.  Legion could die, but the true geth he represented are still around and his "personality" wouldn't be hugely different from a new representative mobile platform.    It wouldn't be "your" Legion, any more than Normandy SR2 is Normandy SR-1...but Joker still thought of the new ship as his "old" baby,  with some upgrades, and they were both called Normandy.   

As for if Legion were never activated--we have no idea what Cerberus did.  We also  have no idea what the true Geth did when they didn't hear back from Legion.   Maybe they sent out another mobile platform based on the same design.   

While the new unit shouldn't act exactly the same as Legion, it could be so much alike that they can basically use the same model and dialog for both versions (something they did with Morinth and Samara, who are supposed to be two different characters....Morinth reuses Samara's VO in the last mission far as I could tell), and from a certain perspective be the same, even if not technically the same.

Modifié par Peppard, 27 avril 2010 - 02:12 .

[Zilod]

RobertM5252 wrote...

OTOH, they could pull a "lulz, u rezed ur ded team!" and bring back everyone from ME2. Which would be irritating but not altogether surprising. (After all, if you killed yourself at the end of DA:O you can ignore that and still use your character in the expansion. Though this isn't quite the same thing.)

well for some chars is not that off

i see no problem in "rezzing" Legion, in the end spare geths barts where assembled by the quarians and ended up with a geth army so a integral legion should be not a big problem to reactivate

Grunt as "perfect krogan" with crapload of regeneration and redudant organs can be another good candidate

Tali is not out too, she mention that the suit of her father had a program to simulate death when needed, so she can pretty much be uncounscious/comatose and the suit automatically makes her look as dead

[Tamyn]

How many of you would be pissed if ME 3 didn't allow you to import an ME 2 saved game with fewer than X number of squadmates recruited and alive?

[Collider]

Tamyn wrote...

How many of you would be pissed if ME 3 didn't allow you to import an ME 2 saved game with fewer than X number of squadmates recruited and alive?

If it's too high, it would kind of defeat the purpose of allowing squad mates to die in the first place. I don't have to worry about this myself as everyone survived for me, but I'd wonder at the reasoning for requiring a set number.

[Cerrydd]

Tamyn wrote...

How many of you would be pissed if ME 3 didn't allow you to import an ME 2 saved game with fewer than X number of squadmates recruited and alive?

You can't import a savegame when your Shepard died, so I guess you just need a minimum of 2 squadmembers alive to import.

[Brako Shepard]

OneDrunkMonk wrote...

Might be interesting if you team up with some characters at one point in the game and others later. So you perhaps have a choice of six at one point in the game then another six at another point. Right now there are a helluva lot of characters/potential team members. Perhaps some should be stationed at different areas of the galaxy as the Reapers try to enter from multiple access points from Dark Space.

This is a very good idea indeed, and could make a lot of sense for the team members you save from your Mass Effect 2 save. Especially if you saved them all.