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[SurelyForth]

Also, Connor is heartbreakingly aware that his death could end the demon's havoc and is willing to accept being killed if it means saving others from further harm. That alone is enough to make me love him. I will always sacrifice Isolde from here on out- she caused the mess, and Teagan is more than capable of handling affairs until Eamon is revived.

[Aisynia]

Connor didn't actually know she was a demon. My guess is that stupid, stupid Isolde sheltered him to such a degree he never learned, and it hadn't come up in Jowan's training yet. For all his mistakes, I think the last thing Jowan expected was for Connor to become an abomination.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Aisynia wrote...

Connor didn't actually know she was a demon. My guess is that stupid, stupid Isolde sheltered him to such a degree he never learned, and it hadn't come up in Jowan's training yet. For all his mistakes, I think the last thing Jowan expected was for Connor to become an abomination.

Yes. If you go upstairs and talk to Connor, he doesn't seem to be aware of the nature of the "mean lady" who spoke in his dreams, only that she started out "nice". The little girl in Honnleath also seems unaware of the nature of "Kitty", so it seems that kids in fact really aren't taught much about demons, because in both cases, we have two children that don't realize what a demon really is.

[Tirigon]

Zy-El wrote...


I don't agree with Eamon's behaviour - I just understand it.  I'm a Grey Warden; it's not my job to change society or rewrite morality.  My mission is to destroy the darkspawn.  Just staying in character.  Remember, this is an RPG (not a rocket-propelled grenade)! 

Well, I did this with an Elf PC and obviously she would NOT understand Eamon. After all, her entry ticket to the wardens was killing such an arrogant noble bastardB)

[Tirigon]

Radahldo wrote...

In Ferelden, every Child knows that.

Even if he knows Demons are bad, as a child, he most likely didnt understand that under no circumstances would any individual demon be benevolent, and will always have an ulterior ruinous motive.
His judgement and moral reasoning aren't that developed.

Bad for him, then. Go tell the dead "His judgement wasn´t developed, it´s not bad he caused your death!", will you?
Besides, the entire Belief system that caused this tragedy, and that Isolde has certainly taught Connor, is based upon the dogma "Magic = evil, demons = even worse".
The child might not understand why it is so, but he wouldn´t question it. Unless his judgement is already developed, in which case your argument is empty.

But Connor DID allow it. To employ my bomb once more: If a Child pulls the trigger, the actual deaths are caused by the bomb. But it would have done nothing without the Child.

In your example the bomb would've needed to be placed and manufactured by someone other than the child-- that person is more accountable...which would be the Demon in Connors case.

But Connor ordered the bomb. HE let the demon in, and noone else.  He wasn´t possessed against his will (like the mages Uldred makes to abominations) but ALLOWED the demon in.

[Aisynia]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Aisynia wrote...

Connor didn't actually know she was a demon. My guess is that stupid, stupid Isolde sheltered him to such a degree he never learned, and it hadn't come up in Jowan's training yet. For all his mistakes, I think the last thing Jowan expected was for Connor to become an abomination.

Yes. If you go upstairs and talk to Connor, he doesn't seem to be aware of the nature of the "mean lady" who spoke in his dreams, only that she started out "nice". The little girl in Honnleath also seems unaware of the nature of "Kitty", so it seems that kids in fact really aren't taught much about demons, because in both cases, we have two children that don't realize what a demon really is.

I'm gonna go with Tirigon on the assumption that most kids are at least told stories.

Connor's mother Isolde and Amalia's father Matthias are two people who have been personally insulted and injured by magic, to the point they have probably sheltered their children from it.

Amalia I can understand a bit better. Connor's desire demon came to him in his dreams, and had he been told anything, he would have resisted that. My guess is that Jowan would have gotten around to teaching him, and assumed that Isolde had at least had a talk with him about it. As we know however, Isolde is amazingly stupid, short-sighted, and self-centered. I could easily see her neglecting to mention this sort of thing to Connor. On the other hand, as I said in a previous post, Connor becoming an abomination at such an early age with so little magical training was probably the last thing Jowan ever expected.

Amalia on the other hand, met her desire demon in person, already having possessed a creature. While Kitty said that she was nearly powerless and hadn't charmed Amalia, I'm not buyng it completely. I think she was strong enough to have SOME influence over her, as if you attack her when the barrier is still up, she can transform and cast spells. That whole deal was really all Willhelm's fault for being completely ****ing stupid enough to have a horde of demons protect the basement beneath his family home!  It's no wonder he got himself smashed.

Modifié par Aisynia, 26 avril 2010 - 11:00 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Aisynia wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Aisynia wrote...

Connor didn't actually know she was a demon. My guess is that stupid, stupid Isolde sheltered him to such a degree he never learned, and it hadn't come up in Jowan's training yet. For all his mistakes, I think the last thing Jowan expected was for Connor to become an abomination.

Yes. If you go upstairs and talk to Connor, he doesn't seem to be aware of the nature of the "mean lady" who spoke in his dreams, only that she started out "nice". The little girl in Honnleath also seems unaware of the nature of "Kitty", so it seems that kids in fact really aren't taught much about demons, because in both cases, we have two children that don't realize what a demon really is.

I'm gonna go with Tirigon on the assumption that most kids are at least told stories.

Connor's mother Isolde and Amalia's father Matthias are two people who have been personally insulted and injured by magic, to the point they have probably sheltered their children from it.

Amalia I can understand a bit better. Connor's desire demon came to him in his dreams, and had he been told anything, he would have resisted that. My guess is that Jowan would have gotten around to teaching him, and assumed that Isolde had at least had a talk with him about it. As we know however, Isolde is amazingly stupid, short-sighted, and self-centered. I could easily see her neglecting to mention this sort of thing to Connor. On the other hand, as I said in a previous post, Connor becoming an abomination at such an early age with so little magical training was probably the last thing Jowan ever expected.

Amalia on the other hand, met her desire demon in person, already having possessed a creature. While Kitty said that she was nearly powerless and hadn't charmed Amalia, I'm not buyng it completely. I think she was strong enough to have SOME influence over her, as if you attack her when the barrier is still up, she can transform and cast spells. That whole deal was really all Willhelm's fault for being completely ****ing stupid enough to have a horde of demons protect the basement beneath his family home!  It's no wonder he got himself smashed.

But, it's a matter of WHAT the kids are told. What do they learn? Probably that demons are bad and possess people. But what a real demon is like, what they look like, what they say, how they target their prey, how they behave, ect...I'm guessing that most ferelden kids could be confronted by a demon and not realize just what it is.

It's not like demons jump out with horns and flames and yell "mwahahaha! I iz a gunna eats ya!". Demons can change form, demons can be initially friendly and seemingly helpful. Manipulative. Remember your harrowing in the mage origin? The demon you had to defeat wasn't the obvious burn everything rage demon. It was the human looking "Mouse", the "friend and helper" that was the threat. That's how the real dangerous demons operate, through masquerade, lies, and deciet.

Your average kid would not understand or know this. Hell, even in our society, kids get kidnapped and killed all the time by "demons (pedophiles and child kilelrs) who approach kids with various, non-threatening ploys to lure them, using children's usual trust of adults against them. I think that demons in ferelden work in a similar fashion.

It is one of the reasons young kids showing magic are snatched up so early by the Circle, I think. Because they need to be taught in that vulnerable age how to identify and understand what demons are, and how they work.

[Aisynia]

Excellent points, which considering he was a mage, and Isolde knew it, it's even more damning that he wasn't taught.

[Tirigon]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

But, it's a matter of WHAT the kids are told. What do they learn? Probably that demons are bad and possess people. But what a real demon is like, what they look like, what they say, how they target their prey, how they behave, ect...I'm guessing that most ferelden kids could be confronted by a demon and not realize just what it is.

But still... Would any child with the least bit of intelligence let someone posses HIS BODY for empty promises?

Your average kid would not understand or know this. Hell, even in our society, kids get kidnapped and killed all the time by "demons (pedophiles and child kilelrs) who approach kids with various, non-threatening ploys to lure them, using children's usual trust of adults against them. I think that demons in ferelden work in a similar fashion.

Yea that´s a pretty sad thing in reality. It always amazes me how these perverted asses can have success though....

It is one of the reasons young kids showing magic are snatched up so early by the Circle, I think. Because they need to be taught in that vulnerable age how to identify and understand what demons are, and how they work.

Well not really. It´s because of the dogma: "Magic is EEEEEVIL!!!!! Mages are BAAAAD and EEEVIL and SINFUL!!!"
And because this EEEEVIL people are not only so unimaginably evil but also a lot more powerful than your common chantry assclown they are locked up before their power develops.

Modifié par Tirigon, 26 avril 2010 - 11:20 .

[Patriciachr34]

[quote][quote]
But Connor DID allow it. To employ my bomb once more: If a Child pulls the trigger, the actual deaths are caused by the bomb. But it would have done nothing without the Child.
[/quote]

In your example the bomb would've needed to be placed and manufactured by someone other than the child-- that person is more accountable...which would be the Demon in Connors case. [/quote]

But Connor ordered the bomb. HE let the demon in, and noone else.  He wasn´t possessed against his will (like the mages Uldred makes to abominations) but ALLOWED the demon in.

[/quote]

Sure he let the demon drive, but Connor had no control over what she did once she was in possesion of his body.  That's the key here. Connor could not stop the demon even if he wanted to.  I also get the sense that while he was possesed he had no idea what the demon was doing in his body; that he was in fact mostly absent (in the Fade).  It may have been Connor's body, but it was the demon who perpetrated the acts.

[Radahldo]

But still... Would any child with the least bit of intelligence let someone posses HIS BODY for empty promises?

Mages understand if they let an alien influence over them for just a moment, the irreparable havoc that will be wrought is very high. But even with that, Wynne seems to gain a new level of comprehension of from the events in the Tower. I don't think most mages, and definitely not normal citizens, really comprehend that in that instant, your identity and all your self-control is given away to the demon, and in the immediate proceeding second, theres little you can do to fight it.

Connor and most children simply can't conceive such extreme consequences. It's like a simple thing such as grabbing a strangers had can lead to that individual snatching up the child. But even if the child knows not to grab a strangers hand, just being in the presence of someone with that intention with no buffer is very dangerous and something bad is incredibly likely.

I don't think the nature and how long the Demons negotiations with Connor  were is revealed

Modifié par Radahldo, 26 avril 2010 - 11:44 .

[Tirigon]

Patriciachr34 wrote...


Sure he let the demon drive, but Connor had no control over what she did once she was in possesion of his body.  That's the key here. Connor could not stop the demon even if he wanted to.  I also get the sense that while he was possesed he had no idea what the demon was doing in his body; that he was in fact mostly absent (in the Fade).  It may have been Connor's body, but it was the demon who perpetrated the acts.

BUT he let it drive. That was too much. You don´t give away things to strangers unless you are absolutely sure you can control them.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

[quote]Tirigon wrote...

[quote]Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

But, it's a matter of WHAT the kids are told. What do they learn? Probably that demons are bad and possess people. But what a real demon is like, what they look like, what they say, how they target their prey, how they behave, ect...I'm guessing that most ferelden kids could be confronted by a demon and not realize just what it is.
[/quote]
But still... Would any child with the least bit of intelligence let someone posses HIS BODY for empty promises?[/quote]

You're assuming that Connor even knew or understood just what the "lady" was asking of him. As far as Connor knew or understood, a "nice lady" in his dreams was offering to help his dad. I doubt the demon said "Lemme possess your body and eat your soul so I can rampage". Demons aren't exactly known for being upfront and honest. And kids aren't known for understanding heavy consequence-actions.

[quote]
[quote]Your average kid would not understand or know this. Hell, even in our society, kids get kidnapped and killed all the time by "demons (pedophiles and child kilelrs) who approach kids with various, non-threatening ploys to lure them, using children's usual trust of adults against them. I think that demons in ferelden work in a similar fashion. [/quote]
Yea that´s a pretty sad thing in reality. It always amazes me how these perverted asses can have success though....[/quote]

It's because kids are kids, and their young minds haven't gained the wisdom and experience to see things in degrees. Pedo-perverts are pretty insidious and inventive when luring victims. Kids are naturally curious, and usually very trusting of seemingly kind, firm adults. It's very sad and sick, but those perverts who like kids learn to adapt to their "prey".

Somehow, I believe demons work very similarly.

[quote]It is one of the reasons young kids showing magic are snatched up so early by the Circle, I think. Because they need to be taught in that vulnerable age how to identify and understand what demons are, and how they work.
[/quote]
Well not really. It´s because of the dogma: "Magic is EEEEEVIL!!!!! Mages are BAAAAD and EEEVIL and SINFUL!!!"
And because this EEEEVIL people are not only so unimaginably evil but also a lot more powerful than your common chantry assclown they are locked up before their power develops.

[/quote]

That is part of it, yes. But the danger to mages is signifigant, especially young, innocent, trusting mages. The Chantry itself might push the "magic is evil" bit, but for the Circle mages themselves, it's more like a need to get the necessary mental resistance in as early as possible.

[Aisynia]

But then you have the harrowing.. which they forbid you from knowing about, up til the moment they send you in. They don't warn you what's happening, they don't educate you as to the consequences.. nothing.



It's implied that the harrowing has at least a mentionable mortality rate.. which is really awful if you think about it.



Instead of properly educating mages about the dangers of the fade before sending them on the harrowing, they completely conceal it in secrecy and then just toss you to the wolves and hope for the best.

[Inzhuna]

Could've at least spelled the name correctly if you're publishing an article...

[Aisynia]

Inzhuna wrote...

Could've at least spelled the name correctly if you're publishing an article...

Good catch.

Frankly, the article isn't one of the better ones on that site, I hate to say.

It completely omits one of the possible outcomes of the quest either due to ignorance on the part of the author, or because it didn't fit the news story she was trying to tell (which is disingenuous and frankly, really awful journalism).

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Aisynia wrote...

But then you have the harrowing.. which they forbid you from knowing about, up til the moment they send you in. They don't warn you what's happening, they don't educate you as to the consequences.. nothing.

It's implied that the harrowing has at least a mentionable mortality rate.. which is really awful if you think about it.

Instead of properly educating mages about the dangers of the fade before sending them on the harrowing, they completely conceal it in secrecy and then just toss you to the wolves and hope for the best.

 

The harrowing itself, yes. It is a secret because they are actually summoning the demon and putting it inside of you. The nature of the Harrowing and what it involves is kept a secret, probably for somewhat similar reasons to the secrecy of the GW joining. But basic knowledge of the nature of demons, as well as learning how to resist them, is more than likely part of a mage's circle training. Demons live in the fade, and don't need direct entrance or summoning to pursue a target. They are most attracted to mages, and can come to them in their dreams, or meditations/altered states. 

I think the high mortality rate with the Harrowing is due to the rather dangerous, brutal, and sudden nature of the ritual, and many mages who are utterly unprepared. The ritual was supposedly meant to weed out weak mages who are suceptible to possesion. But I think the test was not designed with the interests of the mage in mind. This is the Chantry pulling the strings, after all.

The game itself does not show the heavy and real danger of demons and malevolent Fade Spirits that mages frequently face, we only get a taste of it. But according to the Lore, it's something that is very much a clear and present danger. I even believe it was touched on in The Calling.

[Aisynia]

I agree with you, I was thinking about this right before I read your post (well a few minutes ago anyways). I think the Harrowing is not simply morally wrong (or ambiguous at best).. I think its high mortality rate is intentional on the part of the Chantry.

[Raiil]

They put the demon inside of you? My understanding is that you had to face it in the Harrowing, or you'd be possessed and the Templars would chop you down. :/ Could just be me, though.



I hold Connor blameless; insofar as I can tell, Connor had no idea what the hell he was doing and unlike an educated, non-brain dead adult, he wouldn't understand the consequences of his actions. He may not have even realised he was in a dream- he most likely doesn't have the context necessary to comprehend what was going on.





Ultimately, I blame the Chantry and Isolde. The Chantry for being power-hungry, controlling bigots and Isolde for being, well, Isolde. She really should know better. Hell, if she had any sort of intelligence, she could have had Jowan disposed of and gotten help from the Circle with no one being the wiser. Instead she let her husband's village be sacked like the vikings were there.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Aisynia wrote...

I agree with you, I was thinking about this right before I read your post (well a few minutes ago anyways). I think the Harrowing is not simply morally wrong (or ambiguous at best).. I think its high mortality rate is intentional on the part of the Chantry.

I have always suspected that the Chantry/Circle Puppets does deliberately do some sort of "quota control" within the Circle, either through the Harrowing, or bullying/frightening mages into Tranquility. My guess is, is that there are probably safer, more effiecient and better ways to deal with the threats of possession, but research or exploration is strictly controled and limited, through Chantry prohibitions. They want mages and their power, true, but they also want to keep the number of mages to managable, controllable numbers. I think it's why they take away mage's children, and discourage or prohibit the majority of mage marriages.

I did a mage playthrough where my mage felt the most compassionate thing she could do was to kill Connor. If he lived, he'd be sent off to that horrid place, bullied and cowed by templars, the stigma of already once being possesed stuck to him, destinied to live a life isolated and hated. The epilogue turns out somewhat different, but methinks it's due in large part to who his father is.

[Inzhuna]

What really makes me ultimately despise Isolde is that she tortures Jowan. It's quite understandable that she ordered to throw him in prison, or she could even be overcome by rage and order his execution when she found out he poisoned Eamon. But she continued going down to the dungeon, ordering her guards to torture Jowan, watched his pain and suffering... In fact when she must have realised it was her fault (because she admits she is to blame if you choose blood ritual). And she still did it. It is just horrendous.

[Aisynia]

Isolde is a horrible, horrible person, and either Eamon is completely blind to it, ignores it, or is secretly just as much of a monster.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Aisynia wrote...

Isolde is a horrible, horrible person, and either Eamon is completely blind to it, ignores it, or is secretly just as much of a monster.

I go with options 2&3. I rather dislike Eamon immensely. He and Isolde were made for each other, really.

If Isolde lives, she never gets punished at all. Even though she really deserves it. Because she's noble, and thus, special. Her stupidity only got a bunch of lowly peons killed, so no one's gonna push for it. 

And to top it all off, she's a Chantry sheep.

[Sarah1281]

Inzhuna wrote...

What really makes me ultimately despise Isolde is that she tortures Jowan. It's quite understandable that she ordered to throw him in prison, or she could even be overcome by rage and order his execution when she found out he poisoned Eamon. But she continued going down to the dungeon, ordering her guards to torture Jowan, watched his pain and suffering... In fact when she must have realised it was her fault (because she admits she is to blame if you choose blood ritual). And she still did it. It is just horrendous.

I think that was understandable. If she did it before Connor got possessed then she'd need to know who sent him and what they hoped to accomplish. If she did it afterwards then since she clearly had very little knowledge about mages (or else she wouldn't have tried what she did) she honestly believed him to be responsible and was trying to get him to stop.

[Inzhuna]

Hm, I see what you mean Sarah, but I think Isolde was very much deceiving herself when she accused Jowan of being responsible for everything. But even if she actually believed it, I still cannot have any justification for people who can torture others, stand there, watch it... It's just so inhumane. Maybe Isolde should've married Howe. They would have made quite a couple.

I also agree that Eamon is not such a good person as he may come across. He is a manipulator, and would do a lot for his ambitions.