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[Xandurpein]

Tirigon wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...


To begin with. If you bothered to listen to Uldred, siding with him involved letting him make you an abomination. That is, let a Fade spirit enslave you forever, trapping you inside your body at the mercy of the demons actions. And all those abominations you kill in the tower are also mages enslaved and mind controlled by Fade demons. So... um... if you think that is a bright idea to let your soul be imprisoned forever, then go ahead, join Uldred and let his friends possess you.

Not at all; Every alliance with demons involves pointing a gun at their head ready to pull the trigger at the first wrong move.
Uldred made the mistake to let control slip and surrendered himself to the demon. That was wrong.
But it is clear that demons can be a useful tool if you can control them, the reson being, that demons are quite powerful, but also very limited because humans, elves and dwarfy are more creative and free, while demons need help to even come to this world. It is possible to strike a deal from which both parties profit.

One example could be: The demons fight for the warden, and in return they can possess the fallen, or something like that.
Another example is the demon that teaches you blood magic: You get powerful magic, the demon gets a chance to survive.

Demons can be useful allies; the difference to alliances with humans however is that you must first prove your strength. The demon must know that it is more useful for him to help you than to betray you. Uldred failed at making this clear.

Fair enough. You obviously either believe your own story, or you don't want to admit otherwise. The only way to deal with demons is to provide what they want, which is emotions, specifically negative emotions. You can personally profit from this if you never for a second slip and ensure that you can feed the demons what they need - other people's misery.
If you think that is a decent way to live, then I do feel really sorry for you, but I don't see how we can discuss much further.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 27 avril 2010 - 01:52 .

[Tirigon]

Xandurpein wrote...

Fair enough. You obviously either believe your own story, or you don't want to admit otherwise. The only way to deal with demons is to provide what they want, which is emotions, specifically negative emotions. You can personally profit from this if you never for a second slip and ensure that you can feed the demons what they need - other people's misery.
If you think that is a decent way to live, then I do feel really sorry for you, but I don't see how we can discuss much further.

Demons are parasites who try to live off people´s emotions, yes, but that doesn´t mean you can´t employ them for your own reasons. And no, you don´t need to give them what they want if you are strong enough to force them to do what you want.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Tirigon wrote...
And no, you don´t need to give them what they want if you are strong enough to force them to do what you want.

Your source?

I agree that hating demons while we know so little of them is not enlightening. What I would do is study them. But I would not let any demon possess me because I think I can control them, while I know nothing about them. To do so would be a foolish and idiotic act.

[Tirigon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Tirigon wrote...
And no, you don´t need to give them what they want if you are strong enough to force them to do what you want.

Your source?

I agree that hating demons while we know so little of them is not enlightening. What I would do is study them. But I would not let any demon possess me because I think I can control them, while I know nothing about them. To do so would be a foolish and idiotic act.

I wouldn´t let them posses me. But I´d gladly have demons in my party. Better than Alistair and Loghain would they be for sure^^

[Ulicus]

Sarah1281 wrote...

The only way that decision is even remotely conscionable given its impractibility is if you head out to the tower with one or two companions in case you get ambushed and leave everyone else behind to kill Connor if the demon tries something. They should be able to stop the demon before it escapes to the village and there won't be a new corpse-army till he kills those in the castle so as long as Teagan and Isolde okay the risk it could be done.

Agreed -- that should have been something the game made us do, too, as opposed to simply something we could pretend was happening so as to make it remotely believable.

As things stand, I usually prefer to force myself to choose between the first two options and, frankly, I wish there hadn't been the get out clause. Especially since it was a bit of an immersion killer. I really think if you left then (if you didn't leave enough/the right companions behind, if we're gonna go with that idea) you should have found all your good work at Redcliffe undone, with the people dead and the Castle completely overrun again.

The first time I played the game, I assumed there would be some sort of negative consequences for leaving Redcliffe unattended. It was really disappointing to find out afterwards (after frequenting these forums) that there were none at all, and really detracted from the "tough choice" aspect.

Modifié par Ulicus, 27 avril 2010 - 05:44 .

[Carmen_Willow]

Inzhuna wrote...

What really makes me ultimately despise Isolde is that she tortures Jowan. It's quite understandable that she ordered to throw him in prison, or she could even be overcome by rage and order his execution when she found out he poisoned Eamon. But she continued going down to the dungeon, ordering her guards to torture Jowan, watched his pain and suffering... In fact when she must have realised it was her fault (because she admits she is to blame if you choose blood ritual). And she still did it. It is just horrendous.

It's called Projection.  Projecting your blame and shame onto someone else.  I love the way she screams that it's all his fault!!!  So Freudian.

[Aisynia]

Carmen_Willow wrote...

Inzhuna wrote...

What really makes me ultimately despise Isolde is that she tortures Jowan. It's quite understandable that she ordered to throw him in prison, or she could even be overcome by rage and order his execution when she found out he poisoned Eamon. But she continued going down to the dungeon, ordering her guards to torture Jowan, watched his pain and suffering... In fact when she must have realised it was her fault (because she admits she is to blame if you choose blood ritual). And she still did it. It is just horrendous.

It's called Projection.  Projecting your blame and shame onto someone else.  I love the way she screams that it's all his fault!!!  So Freudian.

Seriously.. and the ONLY way she will EVER admit that she was wrong is IF you sacrifice her with blood magic. She's about to die, so I suppose she figured she may as well admit it

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Tirigon wrote...


I wouldn´t let them posses me. But I´d gladly have demons in my party. Better than Alistair and Loghain would they be for sure^^

I dunno about that. Neither Alistair nor Loghain ever showed much interest in shattering your mind and devouring your soul. Well, unless you spec them as reavers. Even then, neither seemed like the type. Nor have either shown interest in possessing your body. Well, except Alistair, and that's only if you're a female who he likes.

Having demonic or abomination allies would be fine if you are playing a seriously twisted, wicked character. But it would be foolish to let a demon anywhere near your mind or body.

[Raiil]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...



Having demonic or abomination allies would be fine if you are playing a seriously twisted, wicked character. But it would be foolish to let a demon anywhere near your mind or body.

IIRC there have been mage Wardens in the past who have turned into abominations in order to help fight the Blight. I thought the supposition was that a strong enough mage could keep a demon in check. Imagine a very strong willed magus who made a pact with a desire demon. Unlikely, but possible, if not very probable.

I don't think you'd necessarily have to be a wicked character to ally with a demon. This is more personal thought, but I don't consider demons to be evil. Tormented, yes, and it would be a cold day in hell before I let one near me. I'd have no compunctions about killing one either- but neither do I feel bad about having to kill any human who attacks me either. I pity them more than I hate them or consider them to be wrong. They want to see a world outside the flimsy one their Maker has confined them in. I don't condone forcibly taking over another person's body but I don't blame them for wanting to get out of the Fade, either.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Valentia X wrote...


IIRC there have been mage Wardens in the past who have turned into abominations in order to help fight the Blight. I thought the supposition was that a strong enough mage could keep a demon in check. Imagine a very strong willed magus who made a pact with a desire demon. Unlikely, but possible, if not very probable.

I don't think you'd necessarily have to be a wicked character to ally with a demon. This is more personal thought, but I don't consider demons to be evil. Tormented, yes, and it would be a cold day in hell before I let one near me. I'd have no compunctions about killing one either- but neither do I feel bad about having to kill any human who attacks me either. I pity them more than I hate them or consider them to be wrong. They want to see a world outside the flimsy one their Maker has confined them in. I don't condone forcibly taking over another person's body but I don't blame them for wanting to get out of the Fade, either.

I've never heard of anyone, let alone Wardens, turning into abominations on purpose, except maybe Flemeth. The closest I can think of is Avernus summoning demons to fight off Arland's troops, but they weren't deliberately becoming abominations. Do you remember where you saw this?

The reason I think that demons are evil is because they are fashioned from the darkest, most destructive vices of the human psyche. They copy, emulate, and embody the worst traits in humanity, and thus, could not be expected to think, behave, or plan except with the darkest, msot twisted of intent. They feed off of negativity, thus, a person who is extremely negative is far more appealing and fulfilling to them. Not just having personal torments, but actually being ruled and driven by the darkness of such a force.