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The Epic Mass Effect 2 vs Mass Effect 1 Debate


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#176
tonnactus

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RyuGuitarFreak wrote...

Seriously. I can't understand how people think that ME1 had a story THAT better than ME2.


Because all characters have a real connection with the main plot.Except Wrex maybee.What is the motivation of aliens to work for cerberus to rescue human colonies?!!??

In the first part: Tali gives you the evidence.Garrus was doing an investigation against saren.Liara interprets the vision of shepardt and help him to understand them.All characters were integral somehow.And now??Why samara fights for shepardt?Why Thane did it? Just some random fighters that fight for shepardt for whatever reasons.No connection to the main plot at all.
And the most stupid thing: Reapers transform humanoid protheans into insects and human genetic variety. I just guessed if uwe boll was the cowriter of Mass Effect 2.

Playwise the stupid downgrade of mostly all biotics make the adept a nerfed soldier(at least at higher difficulties).Power classes not even get a special omnitool/bioamp at the collector ship.Just an option to expand their weapon training.How lame.

Modifié par tonnactus, 30 avril 2010 - 01:45 .


#177
RyuGuitarFreak

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tonnactus wrote...

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...

Seriously. I can't understand how people think that ME1 had a story THAT better than ME2.


Because all characters have a real connection with the main plot.Except Wrex maybee.What is the motivation of aliens to work for cerberus to rescue human colonies?!!??

In the first part: Tali gives you the evidence.Garrus was doing an investigation against saren.Liara interprets the vision of shepardt and help him to understand them.All characters were integral somehow.And now??Why samara fights for shepardt?Why Thane did it? Just some random fighters that fight for shepardt for whatever reasons.No connection to the main plot at all.
And the most stupid thing: Reapers transform humanoid protheans into insects and human genetic variety. I just guessed if uwe boll was the cowriter of Mass Effect 2.

Playwise the stupid downgrade of mostly all biotics make the adept a nerfed soldier(at least at higher difficulties).Power classes not even get a special omnitool/bioamp at the collector ship.Just an option to expand their weapon training.How lame.

Why is the characters attached to the main plot so important? Did it make the experience or the characters better? Not for me. Give me Samara over Liara any day, much more interesting story and personality IMO. Garrus was as uniteresting as a character as was Kaidan (not seeing the romance), in ME2 he's one of the best characters and maybe the best recruitment/loyalty missions pack. Tali was cool, but she was more to show the story of the Quarrians and their war with the geth, she didn't need to stay on the Normandy after delivering the proof of Saren's being responsible of Eden Prime's incident btw, she asked Shepard, he accepted, her pilgrimage isn't a big excuse for being integral to the plot. Wrex really stood apart and he wasn't attached to the plot, but as Tali, he was there to show some background on the Krogan. 
Why Samara fought with Shepard? Her code. Why Thane? He's dieing and he wanted to help Shepard in his cause for his last mission while he's alive. Shep asked, they wanted to go, it's simple, like Tali. Why is it so bad? Wrex, Kaidan and Ash didn't have a big connection to the plot too and noone seems to complain about it.
Protheans became insect things? Visual design, they could be like anything the producers wanted. What's so bad about them looking like insects? I liked their design, the big glowing eyes on Harbinger was cool, if you didn't like it, sorry.
Human genetic variety. Yeah, it's there, Mordin and harbinger say it. The aliens on ME2 all look alike as humans don't, that's the human genetic variety for you. What's your point? Harbinger didn't chose humans just because of it, they were the best viable possibility among races, maybe to make a stronger reaper.

Modifié par RyuGuitarFreak, 30 avril 2010 - 02:26 .


#178
tonnactus

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RyuGuitarFreak wrote...


Why is the characters attached to the main plot so important? Did it make the experience or the characters better?


Is this a joke?? I dont play this game too solve the boring mostly everyday problems of some humanoid aliens.They had to deliver something to the main plot. In this game,not even shepardt himself is really important in this way.Only mordin.
Oh yes,samaras code force her to help some random human soldier(for her when she mets shepart) on a problem that doesnt involve the asari race.Justicars rarely leave the asari area but she did this immidiatly for sheaprdt.Idiotic and artificial. And its a really great fluke that the best assasin in the galaxy is dieng and whant to redeem himself.In a way that humans he didnt know would be saved by him (that line of him make me think that the writers theirself now how awfull the plot is)

Modifié par tonnactus, 30 avril 2010 - 03:20 .


#179
bjdbwea

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RyuGuitarFreak wrote...

Why is the characters attached to the main plot so important? Did it make the experience or the characters better?


Yes, obviously.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 30 avril 2010 - 03:25 .


#180
KitsuneRommel

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tonnactus wrote...
Is this a joke?? I dont play this game too solve the boring mostly everyday problems of some humanoid aliens.They had to deliver something to the main plot. In this game,not even shepardt himself is really important in this way.Only mordin.
Oh yes,samaras code force her to help some random human soldier(for her when she mets shepart) on a problem that doesnt involve the asari race.Justicars rarely leave the asari area but she did this immidiatly for sheaprdt.Idiotic and artificial. And its a really great fluke that the best assasin in the galaxy is dieng and whant to redeem himself.In a way that humans he didnt know would be saved by him (that line of him make me think that the writers theirself now how awfull the plot is)


Well it hardly made sense to take all those aliens aboard a secret military starship in ME1 either. At least Ashley and Kaidan served under Shepard.

#181
tonnactus

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KitsuneRommel wrote...


Well it hardly made sense to take all those aliens aboard a secret military starship in ME1 either. At least Ashley and Kaidan served under Shepard.


Shepardt was a spectre and the normandy becomes a loan to the citadel.(and i also told this to the old fool that wanted to inspect my ship)
He decide what people served on his ship.Cerberus was and is an enemy of the citadel council and the alien races represented by him.

Modifié par tonnactus, 30 avril 2010 - 03:42 .


#182
Vena_86

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SithLordExarKun wrote...

Vena_86 wrote...

ME2: better shooter with better grafics, awesome as stand alone game, failure as a sequel
ME1: better epic RPG adventure on galactic scale and better Mass Effect

Better mass effect? Thats subjected to ones opinion going by your own words. And you one to talk about ME1 having better character development? No, with the exception of garrus and wrex, the rest felt like walking codex's(like liara talking about her job as an archilogist which gave little to no depth of her character)



The first game/movie obviously defines a series. It defines the target audience, it defines what it is about and where the focus lies. There are sequels for games and movies that do everything right with reasonable improvements while continuing the story with the same core elements. Such examples would be Baldurs Gate 2 or Terminator 2. In these cases you could actually say the sequels are better because they pretty much do the same thing but better. Mass Effect 2 is not one of these sequels because it didnt just improve but alos remove elements that where defining for the franchise. As such ME2 might still be the better game in its own genre but not a better Mass Effect.

Modifié par Vena_86, 30 avril 2010 - 04:58 .


#183
Onyx Jaguar

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Mass Effect 2 is first and foremost a video game. Film/Book rules to not apply to series the same way they do video games. The sequels usually define the target audiences as the first game in the series is usually seen as a test of the property. Once established the second one is made, usually irons out the game, to take advantage of the market.

#184
Thundertactics

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ME1 Story 'n scale > ME2 Story 'n scale
ME2 Gameplay >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ME1 Gameplay
(It's the truth, try playing ME1 again after you've played ME2, it's ridiculous how bad the controls are. (Though strangely, this has only become so apparant after playing ME2, before that, I was simply annoyed by the controls, but now, I just feel like smashing my mouse into the table every 10 or so seconds in combat))

#185
ztonkin

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Bottom line: Story's better in the first one; combat's better in the second one.

#186
bjdbwea

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Controls in ME 2 are worse too. No proper hotkeys, several important functions on the same button. May fly on consoles, but was outdated ten years ago on PC. ME 1 had some control problems from its console heritage too, but it was much better overall. To think people actually complained about it being a bad console port...

Modifié par bjdbwea, 30 avril 2010 - 05:33 .


#187
Onyx Jaguar

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On the console ME 2 is no contest better control wise than ME 1. I cannot comment on the PC versions however.

#188
RyuGuitarFreak

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tonnactus wrote...

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...


Why is the characters attached to the main plot so important? Did it make the experience or the characters better?


Is this a joke?? I dont play this game too solve the boring mostly everyday problems of some humanoid aliens.They had to deliver something to the main plot. In this game,not even shepardt himself is really important in this way.Only mordin.
Oh yes,samaras code force her to help some random human soldier(for her when she mets shepart) on a problem that doesnt involve the asari race.Justicars rarely leave the asari area but she did this immidiatly for sheaprdt.Idiotic and artificial. And its a really great fluke that the best assasin in the galaxy is dieng and whant to redeem himself.In a way that humans he didnt know would be saved by him (that line of him make me think that the writers theirself now how awfull the plot is)

Shepard is important because the mission to stop the Collectors only happens because of him recovering the data confirming the Collectors abduction of colonies and accepting to work with Cerberus to stop them in first place. Until then, noone was doing nothing about it. I'm just gonna say this about this subject. I'm not gonna discuss it again with another probable smudboy :P.
"I dont play this game too solve the boring mostly everyday problems of some humanoid aliens." I'll assume you failed to make Shepard survive the suicide mission then. :wizard:
The only squadmate in ME1 that is really connected to the plot of being present during the whole mission is Liara and you seem to don't have a problem with it.
Excluding Miranda and Jacob, the squadmates on ME2 were recruitable, and for a reason. Garrus and Tali obviously would say yes, Jack didn't have much of a choice, Zaeed and Kasumi had already a deal with Cerberus, Legion and Grunt are optional. Only Samara, Thane and Mordin pass through this situation where Shepard just appears and ask to come with them, and they could say no of course, but the automatic rejection would be stupid. Look at how many different situations of recruitment the game has, it's not only "oh hi stranger, would you come with me for a suicide mission?". And that's one reason the loyalty missions are there. You recruited them, that doesn't mean they are loyal and would give everything of them to follow your orders no matter what they were.
Justicars help solving galatic problems. Shouldn't Samara go to stop one race greatest threat? Couldn't she leave asari space because of it? Oh wait, she already was out of it pursuing Morinth.
Thane is the best and most obvious situation where the character could say "no". Maybe Shepard got lucky on this case. Legion was some kind of surprise. Grunt as a pure blood krogan would never refuse a battle like that.

bjdbwea wrote...
Yes, obviously.


Good for you. =]

Modifié par RyuGuitarFreak, 30 avril 2010 - 05:50 .


#189
tonnactus

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Better:Its possible to map 3 powers instead of 1.

On the pc it was always possible to direct squadmembers to different cover/places,now that is also possible on the console.Thats it.

But i had never problems that i sometimes have to pause the combat.I never have problems with the cover system in the first nor with the mako.I could also use the first assault rifles properly.

#190
tonnactus

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RyuGuitarFreak wrote...

tonnactus

Shepard is important because the mission to stop the Collectors only happens because of him recovering the data confirming the Collectors abduction of colonies and accepting to work with Cerberus to stop them in first place. Until then, noone was doing nothing about it.

Wrong.When shepardt was briefed by jacob and miranda before going to freedoms progress he could ask if there could be survivers.They answered there arent any ones in other colonies.Conclusion:Cerberus did investigations long before shepardt woke up.

And i just realise that even Veetor is more relevant to the plot then shepardt himself.Because he recorded all the data.Without him where wouldnt be any progress in the story.

#191
TJSolo

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RyuGuitarFreak wrote...

Shepard is important because the mission to stop the Collectors only happens because of him recovering the data confirming the Collectors abduction of colonies and accepting to work with Cerberus to stop them in first place. Until then, noone was doing nothing about it. I'm just gonna say this about this subject. I'm not gonna discuss it again with another probable smudboy .

All the information Shepard gains is pretty much already known by TIM. TIM is doing plenty about it and even if he didn't pick Shepard he would have had someother plan in place. Leaving the need for Shepard a bit lacking.

The only squadmate in ME1 that is really connected to the plot of being present during the whole mission is Liara and you seem to don't have a problem with it.

Pay attention more. The initial plot of stop Saren: Wrex used to work for Saren, Tali had information about Saren/Benezia and opened the "Reaper" conversation, Ashley was victim to the first attack caused by Saren, Garrus already had an investigation going to find out about Saren, and that leaves Kaiden who is truly not that tied to the plot.

Except for Mordin the ties ME2 characters have to the main plot is weak and not there in most cases. Each character is more like a personal tidal wave of self-centeredness and baggage Shepard has to resolve for them. It appears that since the characters careless about the plot is why their baggage has to take a center role. We all know baggage > saving the universe.

#192
KitsuneRommel

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tonnactus wrote...
Shepardt was a spectre and the normandy
becomes a loan to the citadel.(and i also told this to the old fool that
wanted to inspect my ship)
He decide what people served on his
ship.Cerberus was and is an enemy of the citadel council and the alien
races represented by him.


The council that did
nothing to help even after your constant ass kissing in ME1. I'm sooo glad I sacrificed countless human lives to save them.



RyuGuitarFreak wrote...
The only squadmate in ME1 that is really connected to the plot of being present during the whole mission is Liara and you seem to don't have a problem with it.


Exactly.


Pay attention more. The initial plot of stop Saren: Wrex used to work
for Saren, Tali had information about Saren/Benezia and opened the
"Reaper" conversation, Ashley was victim to the first attack caused by
Saren, Garrus already had an investigation going to find out about
Saren, and that leaves Kaiden who is truly not that tied to the plot.


Modrin wasn't the only one who knew about the collectors either.

Modifié par KitsuneRommel, 30 avril 2010 - 06:27 .


#193
TJSolo

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KitsuneRommel wrote...

Pay attention more. The initial plot of stop Saren: Wrex used to work
for Saren, Tali had information about Saren/Benezia and opened the
"Reaper" conversation, Ashley was victim to the first attack caused by
Saren, Garrus already had an investigation going to find out about
Saren, and that leaves Kaiden who is truly not that tied to the plot.


Modrin wasn't the only one who knew about the collectors either.

My quote was a direct response to the poster that said only Liara was tied to the ME1 plot.

In the Terminus systems a lot of people know about the Collectors, that doesn't tie them into the plot automatically.
To be connected with the plot a character needs motive to be involved or some sort of reason as to why it is relevant that specific character is there and not some other random place holder. 
With the slight exception of the starting and returning members Mordin is the only one with an applicable reason.

Modifié par TJSolo, 30 avril 2010 - 06:55 .


#194
tonnactus

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KitsuneRommel wrote...


The council that did
nothing to help even after your constant ass kissing in ME1.

Forgot the information about virmire??

#195
RyuGuitarFreak

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TJSolo wrote...

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...

Shepard is important because the mission to stop the Collectors only happens because of him recovering the data confirming the Collectors abduction of colonies and accepting to work with Cerberus to stop them in first place. Until then, noone was doing nothing about it. I'm just gonna say this about this subject. I'm not gonna discuss it again with another probable smudboy .

All the information Shepard gains is pretty much already known by TIM. TIM is doing plenty about it and even if he didn't pick Shepard he would have had someother plan in place. Leaving the need for Shepard a bit lacking.

The only squadmate in ME1 that is really connected to the plot of being present during the whole mission is Liara and you seem to don't have a problem with it.

Pay attention more. The initial plot of stop Saren: Wrex used to work for Saren, Tali had information about Saren/Benezia and opened the "Reaper" conversation, Ashley was victim to the first attack caused by Saren, Garrus already had an investigation going to find out about Saren, and that leaves Kaiden who is truly not that tied to the plot.

Except for Mordin the ties ME2 characters have to the main plot is weak and not there in most cases. Each character is more like a personal tidal wave of self-centeredness and baggage Shepard has to resolve for them. It appears that since the characters careless about the plot is why their baggage has to take a center role. We all know baggage > saving the universe.

Regarding to what you said about Shepard in ME2: speculation.

I think I shouldn't be posting because I'm getting into spoiler territory.

You pay attention to my posts. Wrex is a gun for hire, he joined for getting Fist and he stays with you after it for whatever reason. His thing with Saren is not mentioned to be some kind of revenge for him to want something personal UNTIL Virmire, then it gets personal and he is attached to the plot again, but he has nothing necessary to make the story moving forward besides the information on Tali. For Ashley yes, it is true that she stayed in the Normandy because of the attack but the same for Wrex goes to her and Garrus's investigation didn't really help a lot, he stayed because wanted to stop Saren and thought he was gonna help and his informations got back to Tali too if I remember well. After she uses the information, she is unnecessary to make the plot moving forward she stayed because she asked Shepard.

Modifié par RyuGuitarFreak, 30 avril 2010 - 08:08 .


#196
KitsuneRommel

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tonnactus wrote...

KitsuneRommel wrote...


The council that did
nothing to help even after your constant ass kissing in ME1.

Forgot the information about virmire??


I did, actually. That's why I need to do a renegade ME1 run soon. ME2 with a renegade femshep has been a cathartic experience.

#197
Darth Drago

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tonnactus wrote...

I just guessed if uwe boll was the cowriter of Mass Effect 2.


ROFL!
Uwe Boll, that explains a lot now about how messed up ME2 is overall.

#198
darknoon5

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Darth Drago wrote...


tonnactus wrote...

I just guessed if uwe boll was the cowriter of Mass Effect 2.


ROFL!
Uwe Boll, that explains a lot now about how messed up ME2 is overall.

HAHAHA-no:huh:

#199
VA_FyreHeart

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STORY ELEMENTS
World & Immersion
Winner - Mass Effect 1. ME1 has the edge here because of the experience of discovery. That always intensifies the feeling of immersion. Also, ME1's lack of loading screens and contiguous spaces provided a sense of expanse that ME2 lacked. I suspect if were to count up the amount of square footage available for exploration, we'd find ME2 is actually larger, but since ME2's spaces aren't contiguous it didn't FEEL larger. Example: ME1 we had the entire Citadel to explore. ME2 replaced that with Zakera Ward, Omega, Illium, and Tuchanka. More overall space in ME2, but since it's spread over four locations it felt smaller. Also, the ability to land on and explore planets was, IMHO, superior to scanning. The Mako was a great vehicle, but the Hammerhead is superior for exploring the terrain in many of the harsher environments.

Plot
Tie. Both games contained excellent story lines, with typical game-style short branches that let you explore some different options but bring you quickly back to the main plot.

Characterization
Winner - Mass Effect 2. Both have outstanding, believable characters that you want to interact with, but ME2's loyalty missions give some additional depth to all characters, whereas ME1 only offered that type of insight into a few characters.

Choices
Tie. Both had challenging moral choices that impacted the plot.

STORY WINNER - Tie.

SHOOTER ELEMENTS
Weapon Types
Tie. Though ME1 had a handful of base weapon types, the numerous variants and mods of the base weapons made it feel like there was more choice. However, the addition of heavy weapons and rapid firing sniper rifles and shotguns provided choices not available in ME1.

Powers
Winner - Mass Effect 1. Powers, whether they are Biotics, magic, telekineses, etc. are the type of things that grow and change with a character. ME1 had more options for growth.

Ammo Management
Winner - Mass Effect 2. The ability to quickly reload and continue the fight instead of taking cover while your weapon cooled made ME2's battles faster, more intense, and made it feel more like a shooter. I personally find it unrealistic to have a "thermal" clip that doesn't cool down over time. Ideally ME3 will combine the two - slower weapon cooldown, so you'd need to eject thermal clips in an intense firefight, but still have cooldown so there isn't the artificial ammo management.

Gunplay
Winner - Mass Effect 2. The heavy weapons, squad commands, easily accessible ammo powers, and button-controlled cover made ME2 much more accessible as a shooter. ME1's cover mechanic was hard to manage and I'd find myself popping out of cover unintentionally, or getting stuck in cover. ME2's button-controlled cover made that much more controllable. Also, ME2's implementation of ammo as a power instead of a mod made it much more useful. Being able to change ammo types in the middle of a firefight instead of waiting for a lull when you could mod your weapon, particularly if you're facing both synthetics and organics, was awesome.

SHOOTER WINNER - Mass Effect 2.

RPG ELEMENTS
Leveling Up
Winner - Mass Effect 1. There's no question here. ME1 had far more options, far more levels per option, more dependencies between the options, and awarded more points per level to allocate. Character customization was much greater in ME1.

Outfit Customization
Winner - Mass Effect 1. There weren't a huge number of outfit choices in ME1, but there were far more ways to customize them. Finding loot and customizing your armor for your play style and for your squad edges ME2 out here. ME2's upgrade system was workable, and applying the upgrades to all characters simplified the management, but I didn't feel ME1's armor system needed to be simplified.

Loot/Economy
Winner - Mass Effect 1. I didn't mind the mining so much, but not being rewarded for exploration with loot, and the inability to sell loot and buy better systems in ME2 was a disappointment. I end most RPGs obscenely wealthy, but in ME2 I negotiated every discount, finished every N7 mission, and still didn't have enough cash to purchase all the upgrades. ME1 gave me the option to sell stuff I didn't want, or reduce it to omni-gel, which was useful in its own right. In ME2, I was obscenely wealthy with minerals, but couldn't do anything with them. I guess I'll never get to see that space hamster in my quarters...

Item Customization
Winner - Mass Effect 2. I found the weapon customization in ME1 onerous, though it certainly gave you more options. The upgrade system and ability to switch ammo types during combat worked far better for weapons than ME1's system. In contrast to outfit customization, where I enjoyed the depth, weapon customization was a confusing snarl. ME2's simplification helped in this case.

RPG WINNER - Mass Effect 1.

OVERALL WINNER - TIE.

Modifié par VA_FyreHeart, 30 avril 2010 - 09:13 .


#200
KotOREffecT

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^ I like the way you presented and broke down the aspects of both games VA_FyreHeart. And I completelty agree with you.



ME 1&2 FTW!